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Obama:"Palestinians deserve an end to the occupation"

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Crovax said:
Obama wants a final solution to the problem
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He is not the first, but the one I would trust least, if I were Israeli.
 
Deuce said:
"Stop resisting occupation and obey, then you will be rewarded!"

Not sure they'll buy that.
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Which is why we need to spend as much time as is necessary to get them to negotiate again. No long-term peace will be achieved by forcing just one party to behave the way you want.
 
Deuce said:
"Stop resisting occupation and obey, then you will be rewarded!"

Not sure they'll buy that.
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Read "assimilated" for "rewarded" and you have it about right.
 
Just so we can all see why nothing will come of this, lets see how many definitions there are of the area occupied by Israel. Go.
 
Cardinal said:
Which is why we need to spend as much time as is necessary to get them to negotiate again. No long-term peace will be achieved by forcing just one party to behave the way you want.
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Long term peace is not really an option we will probably live to see.
 
joG said:
Long term peace is not really an option we will probably live to see.
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Maybe, maybe not, but long term peace, however long it takes, is preferable to one side exterminating the other. And the current state of affairs can't go on forever.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Oh no! He essentially repeated the official US line on the conflict! Everyone freak out and get your "he's an anti-semite" cards ready! Anytime now godwins law shall be upheld!
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godwins law only refers to rhetorically invoking the holocaust comparisons, the palestinians actual goal is to kill all Jews
 
Cardinal said:
Maybe, maybe not, but long term peace, however long it takes, is preferable to one side exterminating the other. And the current state of affairs can't go on forever.
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For living humans it practically has gone on for ever. And it is not really clear that any peace is better for the Israeli population than no peace and it certainly is not for the Palestinian leaders.
 
joG said:
For living humans it practically has gone on for ever. And it is not really clear that any peace is better for the Israeli population than no peace and it certainly is not for the Palestinian leaders.
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I agree.

.......
 
Apocalypse said:
Not until Israel's security needs can be guaranteed.
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israel is the only nation in the region with nuclear weapons
of course its security needs are guaranteed

Palestinian terrorism predates the Israeli occupation of the WB, or the Jordanian one.
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that does not make armed resistance to an occupying power terrorism
at least not any more than when the American colonists resisted british occupation
and i believe (hope) most of us feel positive about that action and outcome

It makes no sense at all to simply withdraw from the territories while terrorism still threatens the citizens of Israel.
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there is no possible way to assure that no citizen of israel will ever be threatened
just as there is no way to guarantee that no citizen of the US would be threatened while residing in the US
but given israel's disproportionately stronger military, only a fool would believe that israel is genuinely subjected to threat as a nation

You may not show any caring for the lives of Israeli citizens who are threatened by these terrorists' attacks, but don't expect Israel to act the same as you do.
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one of my best friends and his family are currently in israel, visiting their extended family. his brother is buried there. i care for the lives of israelis
but i also care for the lives of Palestinians - to the same degree
and while i recognize that rogue actions are inflicted against the israeli citizens, my belief is that subjugating the Palestinian people, displacing them from their own lands, only perpetuates the anger that results in armed conflict

It's absurd to expect a state's government to advocate the massacre of its citizens.
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and no state is advocating massacre
but one state is occupying the land of another people
why should those people on the occupied lands have reason to believe in good will from the occupiers
 
Crovax said:
godwins law only refers to rhetorically invoking the holocaust comparisons, the palestinians actual goal is to kill all Jews
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:lamo
Fear! Be afraid! Palestinians wanna kill all the Jews! :scared:
2uid7ur.png


Save your untrue generalizations.
 
justabubba said:
israel is the only nation in the region with nuclear weapons
of course its security needs are guaranteed


that does not make armed resistance to an occupying power terrorism
at least not any more than when the American colonists resisted british occupation
and i believe (hope) most of us feel positive about that action and outcome


there is no possible way to assure that no citizen of israel will ever be threatened
just as there is no way to guarantee that no citizen of the US would be threatened while residing in the US
but given israel's disproportionately stronger military, only a fool would believe that israel is genuinely subjected to threat as a nation


one of my best friends and his family are currently in israel, visiting their extended family. his brother is buried there. i care for the lives of israelis
but i also care for the lives of Palestinians - to the same degree
and while i recognize that rogue actions are inflicted against the israeli citizens, my belief is that subjugating the Palestinian people, displacing them from their own lands, only perpetuates the anger that results in armed conflict


and no state is advocating massacre
but one state is occupying the land of another people
why should those people on the occupied lands have reason to believe in good will from the occupiers
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Wow, dude, you just did the "I have Israeli friends" thing.
 
justabubba said:
being Cherokee, that is an approach i could live with


works for me
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then please vacate your land and property and give it back to the Indians I will be waiting for you to do this.

an uncivilized approach to diplomatic relations that would set our world back a few centuries
under your approach, the US should be governing japan, italy, and Germany
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well for a while after WWII the UN was doing just that.
why do you think japans military is basically nothing more than homeland defense?

that is a right of every sovereign nation
what's your point?
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you seem to have an issue with it.

we have an israeli military occupying the land of another people for over 40 years
and you believe it is the Palestinians who are in the wrong for objecting to it
your position is without logic
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If the Palestinians lived like civilized people and didn't commit unprovoked attacks against Israel and let them live in peace then
there would be no need for an occupation.

as it sits down there is a need as the Palestinian government has no problem committing and approving of unprovoked attacks.
until the time that their government see Israel and recognizes Israel as a real nation and acknowledges the borders as they are
Israel has the authority to protect it's people from harm.

so my position has plenty of logic.
 
Cardinal said:
What you have gotten wrong is your refusal to acknowledge that Israel has long term needs of its own.
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of course israel has long term needs of its own
but occupying the lands of another for almost a half century is not the means to achieve them

... unless the intent is to displace those people and take their lands
what should cause us to conclude that is not the genuine intent?

Until you accept that your observations and "solutions" are just blather.
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and now that i have demonstrated that i recognize israel has its own long term needs, share with us why it needs to continue to occupy the lands of another people

I'm biased in favor of Israel myself, so I don't consider your bias to be the problem. Your problem is this pie-in-the-sky notion that you can just go in, pick a side, and force one party to act the way you want. The only way any kind of long term, viable peace is going to happen is when both parties sit down and work out their demands so they walk away feeling like they got their most important needs met.
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we have seen over the course of almost a half century that waiting for israel to relinquish its grip on the lands of another people is an unrealistic expectation
and since it is the more powerful of the two parties, by a few quanta, something must be initiated to motivate israel to be willing to abandon the lands of the other people. which is why i recommend the application of an international embargo
 
ludin said:
then please vacate your land and property and give it back to the Indians I will be waiting for you to do this.


well for a while after WWII the UN was doing just that.
why do you think japans military is basically nothing more than homeland defense?



you seem to have an issue with it.



If the Palestinians lived like civilized people and didn't commit unprovoked attacks against Israel and let them live in peace then
there would be no need for an occupation.

as it sits down there is a need as the Palestinian government has no problem committing and approving of unprovoked attacks.
until the time that their government see Israel and recognizes Israel as a real nation and acknowledges the borders as they are
Israel has the authority to protect it's people from harm.

so my position has plenty of logic.
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Again, people in your city commit acts of violence against innocents, unprovoked, all the time.

You don't deserve freedom, right?
 
joG said:
He is rather late to come out and kick the Israelis in the teeth, but that is Obama for you.

Of course, he is right that the Palestinians got a rotten deal. But the generation of their fathers acted very badly and the present population has not stopped shooting rockets into Israel. I do not see that Israel has the option of the "Two States" solution once envisioned unless someone is willing to protect them and guarantee the population's security and freedom. And Obama has shown how little they should rely on DC.
Also the demographics do not allow for a Palestinian presents in the state of Israel, if they want to remain Israeli.
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you see israel as being threatened
please share with us which nation - or aggregation of nations - in the region has the means to terminate the nation of israel
 
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justabubba said:
israel has occupied the land of another people for over forty years
it is time to end that occupation and return to the borders of israel established by the UN
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Israel would give up those settlements in a heartbeat if the Palestinians could show they could be trusted for more than 5 minutes. Thus far that hasn't happened.
 
justabubba said:
of course israel has long term needs of its own
but occupying the lands of another for almost a half century is not the means to achieve them

... unless the intent is to displace those people and take their lands
what should cause us to conclude that is not the genuine intent?
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when occupying those lands help keep bombs from being launched into your market places then yes
that is a long term need. would disagree that it is ok for me to shoot bullets and throw pipe bombs at your home?


and now that i have demonstrated that i recognize israel has its own long term needs, share with us why it needs to continue to occupy the lands of another people
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no you have demonstrated what you opinion is of their long term need but you missed the mark with your opinion.

we have seen over the course of almost a half century that waiting for israel to relinquish its grip on the lands of another people is an unrealistic expectation
and since it is the more powerful of the two parties, by a few quanta, something must be initiated to motivate israel to be willing to abandon the lands of the other people. which is why i recommend the application of an international embargo
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Israel is not going to move until the palastinien government gets itself in order and stops the terror attacks on Israel. until that happens Israel will continue to be in the land that it rightfully owns.
 
justabubba said:
you see israel as being threatened
please share with us which nation - or aggregation of nations - in the region has the meas to terminate the nation of israel
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Oh cut it out.A neighbor intent on wiping you out is a huge threat. Whay are pretending that it isn't??? hmmmmmmmmmmmm
 
justabubba said:
of course israel has long term needs of its own
but occupying the lands of another for almost a half century is not the means to achieve them

... unless the intent is to displace those people and take their lands
what should cause us to conclude that is not the genuine intent?


and now that i have demonstrated that i recognize israel has its own long term needs, share with us why it needs to continue to occupy the lands of another people


we have seen over the course of almost a half century that waiting for israel to relinquish its grip on the lands of another people is an unrealistic expectation
and since it is the more powerful of the two parties, by a few quanta, something must be initiated to motivate israel to be willing to abandon the lands of the other people. which is why i recommend the application of an international embargo
Click to expand...

Your understanding of Israel's "long term security needs" is surreal at best, as you appear to believe that simply possessing nukes is sufficient. What do you think Israel is going to do when a newly sovereign Palestine fires rockets at Tel Aviv? Nuke the West Bank 32 miles way? Think! Stop looking at the needs of just one side, study the demands and needs of both sides...and think!
 
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Deuce said:
Again, people in your city commit acts of violence against innocents, unprovoked, all the time.

You don't deserve freedom, right?
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I don't have people launch missiles at my home either. if I did I would expect the national guard to come in and deal with the situation.

I have no problem with a military force who is engaged in a war to prevent more harm to come to its citizens. that is the whole point of an army.
in my town I have a police force that stops those people from doing what you say.
 
justabubba said:
being Cherokee, that is an approach i could live with

works for me

an uncivilized approach to diplomatic relations that would set our world back a few centuries under your approach, the US should be governing japan, italy, and germany

that is a right of every sovereign nation what's your point?

we have an israeli military occupying the land of another people for over 40 years and you believe it is the Palestinians who are in the wrong for objecting to it
your position is without logic
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I appreciate you demonstrating the intellectual depth of your position.

israel has occupied the land of another people for over forty years
it is time to end that occupation and return to the borders of israel established by the UN
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:shrug: Arabs occupied Jewish land for over a thousand years. It's time to end that occupation and return to the borders assigned by God.



OR we can agree that going back in time to find the borders most advantageous to the side-you-favor and declaring that for some reason to be the default position is dumb. The Arabs were offered those UN borders - they refused them and instead declared war. They lost.
 
Cardinal said:
Your understanding of Israel's "long term security needs" are bizarre at best, as you appear to believe that simply possessing nukes is sufficient. What do you think Israel is going to do when a newly sovereign Palestine fires rockets at Tel Aviv? Nuke the West Bank 32 miles way? Think! Stop looking at the needs of just one side, study the demands and needs of both sides...and think!
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that is too difficult appeals to emotion are better.
 
Cardinal said:
Your understanding of Israel's "long term security needs" are bizarre at best, as you appear to believe that simply possessing nukes is sufficient. What do you think Israel is going to do when a newly sovereign Palestine fires rockets at Tel Aviv? Nuke the West Bank 32 miles way? Think! Stop looking at the needs of just one side, study the demands and needs of both sides...and think!
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Yeah. Nukes aren't exactly the most fungible of response options.
 
Deuce said:
There are criminals in your place of living too. Always have been.

Therefore you don't deserve to be free.
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My place of living has not elevated criminality to its very raison d'etre. Somehow, I'm missing all the streets named after mass murderers here, the posters celebrating the death of innocent people or the children's shows aimed at creating genocidal hatred.
 
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