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Obama:"Palestinians deserve an end to the occupation"

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the israelis initiated the hostile actions
look it up

The Israelis accepted the UN partition. The Arabs rejected it and attacked.

But hey, let's look it up!

While the Jewish community accepted the 1937 and 1947 partition plans, the Palestinian Arab leadership, dominated by the Husseini family, rejected both plans categorically. Indeed, most Palestinians turned down the 1937 design, even though it designated only 20 percent of Palestine to the proposed Jewish state.



The United Nations General Assembly decided in 1947 on the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem to be an internationalised city. Jewish representatives in Palestine (the Jewish Agency) accepted the plan tactically - though with reluctance - because it implied international recognition for their aims of establishing a state, but on lesser territory than they considered a legal and historical right to.

The Palestinians and Arabs felt that it was a deep injustice to ignore the rights of the majority of the population of Palestine. The Arab League and Palestinian institutions rejected the partition plan, and formed volunteer armies that infiltrated into Palestine beginning in December of 1947.....



Israel declared itself a state along those borders. It was attacked in order to wipe it out. In the following war (in which it was incredibly outnumbered and outgunned), Israel managed to consolidate the earlier, spread-out territories into a coherent whole and create semi-defensible (with one major exception) borders. The Arabs chose to gamble on wiping out Israel and taking 100% of the land. They lost.
 
if israel abandoned the land of Palestine and returned to the UN decreed israeli borders, why would the Palestinians then attack israel

I'll go with the assumption that you won't research this yourself. The reason why Palestinians would continue to attack Israel is because they don't recognize Israel's right to exist.

In 2013 Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh reiterated that the Palestinian Arabs as a whole will never recognize Israel's right to exist, and certainly not to exist as the Jewish state, by saying: "We had two wars...but Palestinians did not and will not recognize Israel"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist#Israel_and_Palestine

And the reason why simply having superior firepower is not an acceptable solution is because nobody would want to live like that. If your own neighbor threatened you, which would you prefer?

a)A situation in which your neighbor recognizes your right to peace and security, or
b)A situation in which the only reason your neighbor isn't attacking you right now is because you have bigger guns?
 
Obama wants a final solution to the problem

So has the rest of the world since 1945. One doesn't snap one's fingers and solve it. Perhaps the Obama method would be to ship all the Palestinians to Ohio and buy them homes and give them jobs.
 
I am not so sure that that is accurate. I think that you could say that everyone outside the Middle East believes that. The Arab populace, not so much.

I agree. Couple that with Israel's hard-liner position of establishing even more settlements and pushing the Palestine's off the edge of the earth and I see absolutely no progress possible in the near future. Seems like everyone BUT Palestine and Israel want peace between the Israeli's and Palestinians.

That's why I think the US oughta just butt out and leave them both to wallow in their own crap. They reap what they sew. I got no love for either of them. I am more interested in the United States.
 
dude, i AM native American
an indian currently owns my property. he is Cherokee
try again

I have no way to verify or not verify this claim.


even you realize that the US does not occupy and control japan, italy, and germany, which proves your justification for occupation to be a wrong one
Please show me where I said this. After WWII the allies very much were occupying those nations.



actually, that would be you
you are the one who expresses opposition to the occupied people resisting the occupiers
way to strawman what I said. I never said anything of the sort.



have you no sense of history. the Palestinians object to their present occupiers just as the American patriots objected to the british occupation
do you resent that your forefathers took up resistance to oust the british occupiers from the Americans' own lands

this is an equivalence fallacy. the two are not the same. Israel has had control of the west bank for a while. they won it fair and square in a botched war.
they won actually more land than that in that war, however they have given much of the land back in so called land for peace deals that were none existent until
they said enough was enough.


do you not view an unwelcome armed party occupying your property as being a provocation

they lost that property in a failed war. as for the other if they stop the unprovoked attacks on Israel then Israel will leave them alone.
pretty simple, and something Israel has stated time and time again.

they refuse to allow this to happen so Israel will maintain a military presence in order to stop unwanted attacks on it's populace.



the Palestinians have already recognized israel
and they recognize the same israeli borders as does the UN - the party which recognized israel to exist
israel would subject its people to less harm if it would abandon the lands of another people

no, your position continues to be devoid of logic
see above
only to someone that has to distort what people say.
 
not true
if israel abandoned the land of Palestine and returned to the UN decreed israeli borders, why would the Palestinians then attack israel
and with what means

the same means that they do now. they hid in houses and shoot rockets at easier. the only difference is now they would have a closer
distance to shoot from.
 
Wow. I just don't....how...what....dude...

Have you never read a newspaper?? I mean, I've seen you participate in these debates countless times. How do you not know the answer to your own question?

I think the answer is pretty obvious. The ant-Semitism isn't very well concealed.
 
:lamo
Fear! Be afraid! Palestinians wanna kill all the Jews! :scared:
2uid7ur.png


Save your untrue generalizations.

If they really wanted a non-violent solution, why would they continually choose a terrorist organization as their govt.

Actions speak louder than words
 
If they really wanted a non-violent solution, why would they continually choose a terrorist organization as their govt.

Actions speak louder than words

Do they now? So I guess whenever a group of people within a country commits violent actions its a condemnation of the whole people? So when America bombs Iraq it means all Americans favor violence and destruction?
 
The tern "deserve" has certainly shifted meaning since I was young.

Decade after decade of unrelenting terrorism "deserves" a reward?

The wheels have truly fallen off the cart.

Yes, because all suffering Palestinians, women and children included are engaged in terrorism.
 
israel is the only nation in the region with nuclear weapons
of course its security needs are guaranteed


that does not make armed resistance to an occupying power terrorism
at least not any more than when the American colonists resisted british occupation
and i believe (hope) most of us feel positive about that action and outcome


there is no possible way to assure that no citizen of israel will ever be threatened
just as there is no way to guarantee that no citizen of the US would be threatened while residing in the US
but given israel's disproportionately stronger military, only a fool would believe that israel is genuinely subjected to threat as a nation


one of my best friends and his family are currently in israel, visiting their extended family. his brother is buried there. i care for the lives of israelis
but i also care for the lives of Palestinians - to the same degree
and while i recognize that rogue actions are inflicted against the israeli citizens, my belief is that subjugating the Palestinian people, displacing them from their own lands, only perpetuates the anger that results in armed conflict


and no state is advocating massacre
but one state is occupying the land of another people
why should those people on the occupied lands have reason to believe in good will from the occupiers

Not to go through all your points, but I noted this point you made:

that does not make armed resistance to an occupying power terrorism
at least not any more than when the American colonists resisted british occupation
and i believe (hope) most of us feel positive about that action and outcome

There were also the Tories who did not support the other colonists and abandoned their property and escaped to Halifax. They too were not permitted to return and reclaim their property. Any comments on that?
 
dude, i AM native American
an indian currently owns my property. he is Cherokee
try again


You've really got that one tenth of one percent working for you today, Bubba. It gives you so much cred I find myself envious!
 
Vatican to Recognize Palestinian State in New Treaty
By GAIA PIANIGIANI and RICK GLADSTONEMAY 13, 2015

ROME — The Vatican said Wednesday that it had concluded a treaty to recognize Palestinian statehood, a symbolic but significant step welcomed by Palestinians but upsetting to the Israeli government.

Formal recognition of a Palestinian state by the Vatican, which has deep religious interests in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories that include Christian holy sites, lends a powerful signal of moral authority and legitimacy to the efforts by the Palestinian Authority’s president, Mahmoud Abbas, to achieve statehood despite the long paralyzed Israeli-Palestinian peace process.

Israel has grown increasingly alarmed about the increased international acceptance of Palestine as a state since the United Nations upgraded the Palestinian delegation’s status in 2012 to that of a nonmember observer state. A number of European countries have also signaled their acceptance of Palestinian statehood.

A statement from a joint commission of Vatican and Palestinian diplomatic officials, posted on the Vatican news website, said “the work of the commission on the text of the agreement has been concluded,” and that it would be submitted for formal approval and for signing “in the near future.”

Hanna Amireh, head of a Palestinian committee on church affairs, said the treaty was a broad one regarding the Vatican’s interests in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip, including the standing of churches and church courts and taxes on church charities, institutions and lands, as well as other cultural and diplomatic matters. He said it had been under negotiation for about a year.

“The Vatican is the spiritual capital of the Catholics, and they are recognizing Palestine, that’s the chief importance,” said Mr. Amireh, who is also a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization’s executive committee. The move counters an image of Palestinians as militants or terrorists, he added, as a “recognition of the Palestinian character that has a clear message for coexistence and peace.”

More
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/14/w...ecognize-palestinian-state-in-new-treaty.html
 
I agree. Couple that with Israel's hard-liner position of establishing even more settlements and pushing the Palestine's off the edge of the earth and I see absolutely no progress possible in the near future. Seems like everyone BUT Palestine and Israel want peace between the Israeli's and Palestinians.

Israel's hardliners have power because the Moderates had a chance to try out their theory, and give the Palestinians autonomy, hoping for peace. The Israelis were rewarded with more rockets, and the Israeli populace reacted accordingly.

That's why I think the US oughta just butt out and leave them both to wallow in their own crap. They reap what they sew. I got no love for either of them. I am more interested in the United States.

Israel is an important ally in this region, as well as being the only fully functioning Democracy. Butting Out completely isn't really an option.
 
The tern "deserve" has certainly shifted meaning since I was young.

Decade after decade of unrelenting terrorism "deserves" a reward?

The wheels have truly fallen off the cart.

It seems Obama thinks Palestinian women deserve to be repressed, Palestinians gays and journalists deserve to be killed, people who sell land to Jews deserve to be beheaded, and all the other fun things that come with an Islamic government.
 
Israel's hardliners have power because the Moderates had a chance to try out their theory, and give the Palestinians autonomy, hoping for peace. The Israelis were rewarded with more rockets, and the Israeli populace reacted accordingly.



Israel is an important ally in this region, as well as being the only fully functioning Democracy. Butting Out completely isn't really an option.

Well, I might call it roughly 75% functioning Democracy. Which, don't get me wrong, is a good sight more than anything else around there.
 
justabubba said:
an indian currently owns my property. he is Cherokee
You've really got that one tenth of one percent working for you today, Bubba. It gives you so much cred I find myself envious!


Well, you'll notice he didn't answer whereabouts he lived. My bet is he doesn't own land in traditional Cherokee territory, and would be forced to give up his property, but doesn't want to admit it.
 
israel has occupied the land of another people for over forty years
it is time to end that occupation and return to the borders of israel established by the UN
Its kinda crazy how that works out...right? Back, and forth. Back, and forth. Conquerors tend to occupy the lands they currently possess. Sorta like what we do today. Sorta like what the Spaniards did in mejico, and the Mayans and Aztecs and Incans and Brits, and Romans, and Africans, and...well...everyone.

WHy do you think Israel returning back to the borders established in the 40s would matter to the Palestinians? Do you think they would be satisfied with that? Do you think there would be peace? Hell...if anything...that would just trigger GREATER opportunities for war. And I'm not even saying I blame the Palestinians.

This wont end until one side has 'won' and the other side has truly 'lost' and is completely vanquished. I wish that werent the case but it is.
 
Its kinda crazy how that works out...right? Back, and forth. Back, and forth. Conquerors tend to occupy the lands they currently possess. Sorta like what we do today. Sorta like what the Spaniards did in mejico, and the Mayans and Aztecs and Incans and Brits, and Romans, and Africans, and...well...everyone.

WHy do you think Israel returning back to the borders established in the 40s would matter to the Palestinians? Do you think they would be satisfied with that? Do you think there would be peace? Hell...if anything...that would just trigger GREATER opportunities for war. And I'm not even saying I blame the Palestinians.

This wont end until one side has 'won' and the other side has truly 'lost' and is completely vanquished. I wish that werent the case but it is.


To the bolded, we can hope that you're wrong.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Closed for mod review and mod actions may be pending. Will be re-opened and moved to the ME forum a little later.
 
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