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Tex. bill would bar local officials from issuing same-sex-marriage licenses

The issue with gay marriage is the word marriage. Marriage originated as a religious institution, it was meant to be the joining of a reproductive group into a religiously blessed union (this hopefully will cover poly, and monogamous for everyone). The point being that said religion was giving you the thumbs up to make babies and not feel bad about it. The point of this is that marriage is a concept that stems from a religious institution that was recognized by the state. As such the state lacks the power to create gay marriage because marriage is not created by the state, only recognized. If this is an issue of rights then options exist such as civil unions. While there would be some who would oppose them it would be trivial effort if the homosexual rights groups refocused to equalize the rights available under said unions.

Gay marriage is a violation of the separation of church and state because it is the state attempting to define a religious institution and force them to comply. Civil unions are on the other hand totally within the rights of the state to create and manage as they see fit. The question then becomes if equality is the goal why is the word marriage so important to homosexual couples. They could easily obtain equality with a civil union.

Are you saying that religion has a patent on marriage? It has long expired and the State now is the primary instrument of marriage. Religious ceremonies are not even valid without a license from the State. You argument is a total fail. As far as civil union is concerned ALL marriages are civil unions first so we can just change all of them then. You certainly won't mind....it's just a "word".
 
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Actually no, they can't. The Marshalls work for the Executive Branch, not the Judicial. They can request the Executive send the Marshalls. Same goes for the Coast Guard.

This is why Marbury never took his seat despite the court's ruling.

Yeah, and in what universe would our current executive fail to follow such an order?
 
Are you saying that religion has a patent on marriage? It has long expired and the State now is the primary instrument of marriage. Religious ceremonies are not even valid without a license from the State. You argument is a total fail. As far as civil union is concerned ALL marriages are civil unions first so we can just change all of them then. You certainly won't mind....it's just a "word".

Religious ceremonies are valid without a license, what one does not acquire without a license is recognition by the state. This is a common misunderstanding. The institution of marriage is a religious one, to gain state benefits from this religious institution one must obtain a marriage license. That is the method by which the state has chosen to recognize the religious institution of marriage. The other issue is the concept that its just a word. Marriage has a meaning, a meaning that has existed for an extremely long time. The very fact that there is such a huge debate over this issue shows how well known and deeply ingrained that meaning is. If marriage was just a "word" then there would never have been a gay "marriage" debate. The issue stems from the fact that Marriage has a meaning, and that homosexual unions do not fit that concept. This is why there is such a huge debate. Homosexual unions can obtain all the rights that heterosexual marriages have under the equal rights amendments what they should not be allowed to do is to alter a fundamental concept to include themselves within its boundaries.

The very fact that the debate is about gay "marriage" shows it is not an attempt to gain equal rights. If one wanted equal rights they could simply bring a court case demanding that civial unions be granted all rights given to state recognized marriages. Under that platform there is no possible way for the courts to turn it down. It would violate the equal rights amendment. This would then solve all the problems such as tax benefits, inheritance, etc. It is plain to see though that this is not the goal. The goal is to alter the fundamental meaning of marriage so as to legitimize these unions morally. The hope is that if the word marriage can be changed to include homosexual unions they will obtain the moral equivalence they desire. The problem is, as evidenced by the public conflict, it is not considered morally equivalent. To attempt to force a change in peoples morals by use of powers of the state one enters very dangerous territory. It should always be the goal of the populace to keep the state out of the game of moral enforcement. The greatest dictatorships arise from such abuses.
 
Yeah, and in what universe would our current executive fail to follow such an order?

That doesn't make your inaccurate assertion that the SCOTUS commands the US Marshall service, the Coast Guard or the National Guard any more correct.
 
Of course, but there is no right to sodomy in the US constitution.

Yes but to enforce such a law would infringe on Constitutional rights like privacy and due process. And when examined by the court, it could also show that, as no harm is done between consenting adults, it infringes on the inalienable right to pursuit of happiness.
 
Yes but to enforce such a law would infringe on Constitutional rights like privacy and due process. And when examined by the court, it could also show that, as no harm is done between consenting adults, it infringes on the inalienable right to pursuit of happiness.

Nice try. But where the constitution does not establish a right to sodomy and does not contain a grant of power for the federal to restrict or control sodomy, it DOES grant the power to the state and local to do so.

And neither privacy nor due process are violated by anti-sodomy laws. It still has to be proven that the crime was committed in the same way any other crime is proven.
 
Just another roadblock and a legal case that if SCOTUS rules in favor of SSM, this will take a bit of time to throw in the dustbin.

It's not a roadblock, it's just Texas being desperate and stupid, as usual. The supremacy clause makes federal rulings supreme over state rulings. Texas loses. Those who refuse to follow federal law can be arrested and imprisoned and while there are probably a few who are willing to do so, most will just do what the Supreme Court decides.
 
Religious ceremonies are valid without a license, what one does not acquire without a license is recognition by the state. This is a common misunderstanding. The institution of marriage is a religious one, to gain state benefits from this religious institution one must obtain a marriage license. That is the method by which the state has chosen to recognize the religious institution of marriage. The other issue is the concept that its just a word. Marriage has a meaning, a meaning that has existed for an extremely long time. The very fact that there is such a huge debate over this issue shows how well known and deeply ingrained that meaning is. If marriage was just a "word" then there would never have been a gay "marriage" debate. The issue stems from the fact that Marriage has a meaning, and that homosexual unions do not fit that concept. This is why there is such a huge debate. Homosexual unions can obtain all the rights that heterosexual marriages have under the equal rights amendments what they should not be allowed to do is to alter a fundamental concept to include themselves within its boundaries.

The very fact that the debate is about gay "marriage" shows it is not an attempt to gain equal rights. If one wanted equal rights they could simply bring a court case demanding that civial unions be granted all rights given to state recognized marriages. Under that platform there is no possible way for the courts to turn it down. It would violate the equal rights amendment. This would then solve all the problems such as tax benefits, inheritance, etc. It is plain to see though that this is not the goal. The goal is to alter the fundamental meaning of marriage so as to legitimize these unions morally. The hope is that if the word marriage can be changed to include homosexual unions they will obtain the moral equivalence they desire. The problem is, as evidenced by the public conflict, it is not considered morally equivalent. To attempt to force a change in peoples morals by use of powers of the state one enters very dangerous territory. It should always be the goal of the populace to keep the state out of the game of moral enforcement. The greatest dictatorships arise from such abuses.

Many marriages have no religious ceremony and religion is not required to marry someone. If you choose to make it a religious rite you can but to say the word marriage is the property of the church is ridiculous. That is what your argument is....
 
I think you are confusing Marriage with Holy Matrimony

Which really doesn't matter, it's just a made up religious term that has no real meaning. You can walk down all the aisles in all the churches you want, you're not married until you get that piece of paper from the state.
 
You dont think that sodomy laws were unConstitutional?

No, I certainly do not. Lawrence is another one of the Court's substantive due process turkeys, just like Casey. In both cases, Justice Kennedy's opinion rigged the constitutional analysis to produce the desired result.

In Casey, the Court could not bring itself to overrule Roe v. Wade, so Kennedy et al. cooked up a disingenuous compromise. Their aim was not to decide the issue before the Court, but rather to save at least the core of Roe. The contrivance they came up with downgraded abortion from a fundamental right, such that laws infringing it called for strict scrutiny, to a "liberty interest," which called for a new, less demanding "undue burden" standard. Fiddle with the terms and the standards cleverly enough, and you can make the case come out the way you want.

In Lawrence, Kennedy found there was also a "liberty interest" in homosexual relationships. This allowed him to avoid the claim--which he knew very well would not have passed the laugh test--that a fundamental right was involved, or that strict scrutiny was required. And yet he applied heightened scrutiny to the challenged state sodomy law even under rational basis review--in which, by the Court's own well-established rules, no heightened scrutiny applies! The majority acknowledged that the law did not involve any fundamental right, and it applied what it called rational basis review. And yet it used sleight-of-hand to replace the deferential standard it uses in rational basis review with the heightened scrutiny it reserves for fundamental rights.

As Justice Scalia noted in his dissenting opinion,

Our opinions applying the doctrine known as "substantive due process" hold that the Due Process Clause prohibits States from infringing fundamental liberty interests, unless the infringement is narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest. Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U.S., at 721. We have held repeatedly, in cases the Court today does not overrule, that only fundamental rights qualify for this so-called "heightened scrutiny" protection--that is, rights which are "'deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition'" . . . All other liberty interests may be abridged or abrogated pursuant to a validly enacted state law if that law is rationally related to a legitimate state interest. (emphasis added)

Lawrence was a result-driven decision, just like Casey before it. More recently, Kennedy cooked up something similar in Windsor. He sprinkled the language of fundamental rights and substantive due process throughout his opinion, but without claiming any fundamental right was at issue, or ever stating that the holding was based on substantive due process. It's not clear that Lawrence is based on any constitutional principle at all, unless "because we say so" qualifies as one. But arbitrary dictates from on high are just fine with statists, as long as they produce the results they want.
 
No, I certainly do not. Lawrence is another one of the Court's substantive due process turkeys, just like Casey. In both cases, Justice Kennedy's opinion rigged the constitutional analysis to produce the desired result.

I don't know, nor do I care. If they are unenforceable, what difference does it make?

Exactly what is the point of legislation that attempts to reduce personal liberties (that infringe on the rights of no one else), ESPECIALLY if it is unenforceable?

Esp. when such enforcement would indeed breech Constitutional rights like privacy and due process?
 

Gosh, a couple cops somewhere in the U.S. weren't up to speed on the law and mistakenly arrested someone under a law that had been invalid for years. Imagine! I hope that soon someone will write an article exposing the menace presented by local police enforcing obsolete laws against fornication, and the needless anxiety it stirs up.
 
Gosh, a couple cops somewhere in the U.S. weren't up to speed on the law and mistakenly arrested someone under a law that had been invalid for years. Imagine! I hope that soon someone will write an article exposing the menace presented by local police enforcing obsolete laws against fornication, and the needless anxiety it stirs up.

Those were a few news reports- Guess good old Louisiana cannot get the word out.

And as noted the Sheriff does not give a **** about the SCOTUS ruling.
Are you OK with that as well?


Louisiana's Gay Arrests Are a Reminder That Anti-Sodomy Laws Still Exist | Daily Lounge

According to a Sheriff’s Office spokesperson, investigators pursuing offenders under that law are completely within their rights to do so. “This is a law that is currently on the Louisiana books, and the sheriff is charged with enforcing the laws passed by our Louisiana Legislature,” she explained to The Advocate. “Whether the law is valid is something for the courts to determine, but the sheriff will enforce the laws that are enacted.”

The article implies that the step up in arrests was done to decrease the popularity of one of the city's parks, Manchac Park, as a trolling spot for gay men to find anonymous sexual partners. The piece goes on to point out that many of those arrested were older closeted gay men and insinuates that the arrests were more a scare tactic.
 
Exactly what is the point of legislation that attempts to reduce personal liberties (that infringe on the rights of no one else), ESPECIALLY if it is unenforceable?

Esp. when such enforcement would indeed breech Constitutional rights like privacy and due process?

Exactly what is the point of state laws against going nude, or masturbating, or fornicating in public places, or against prostitution, or against bigamy or adult incest, when engaged in by consenting adults? Oh, the sleepless nights I have spent, agonizing over the way such cruel laws deprive the people involved of their liberty interests without due process! And that's to say nothing of the poor polygamists, who have been viciously oppressed in this country for a couple centuries now by heartless laws.
 
Exactly what is the point of state laws against going nude, or masturbating, or fornicating in public places, or against prostitution, or against bigamy or adult incest, when engaged in by consenting adults? Oh, the sleepless nights I have spent, agonizing over the way such cruel laws deprive the people involved of their liberty interests without due process! And that's to say nothing of the poor polygamists, who have been viciously oppressed in this country for a couple centuries now by heartless laws.

Nudity? Nothing except public health risks. Same with masturbating & fornication...fluids.

and I almost included prostitution in my post...there's no reason that should be illegal. Victimless crime, the govt being 'moral police.' The public doesnt seem to care enough to pressure govts into making it legal, but that may happen someday...society changes.

and you didnt really answer to the hypocrisy of your earlier thread where you did indeed emphasize the unenforceability of law. I dont care if bigamy or adult incest are illegal either...they do no harm to society...if the individual involved consent...who cares? Just judgemental people who have no business in their affairs.
 
Nudity? Nothing except public health risks. Same with masturbating & fornication...fluids.

and I almost included prostitution in my post...there's no reason that should be illegal. Victimless crime, the govt being 'moral police.' The public doesnt seem to care enough to pressure govts into making it legal, but that may happen someday...society changes.

and you didnt really answer to the hypocrisy of your earlier thread where you did indeed emphasize the unenforceability of law. I dont care if bigamy or adult incest are illegal either...they do no harm to society...if the individual involved consent...who cares? Just judgemental people who have no business in their affairs.

I don't recall starting a thread here. But in any case, there is no hypocrisy in any of my posts, so there is no need for me to answer anyone's assertions about it--even if they were expressed coherently enough to understand. When you claim I "emphasized the unenforceability of law," I don't know what you are talking about. I think I remarked that a law which has been held unconstitutional is invalid and unenforceable because someone (who knows why) had questioned that. But if so, I was only restating what should have been obvious.

I support morals laws. I believe, just as most people in every state in this country have believed from the beginning, that promoting majoritarian morality is a legitimate government interest. If most people in a state believe public nudity, prostitution, bigamy, bestiality, mothers marrying their daughters, and so on are immoral and unacceptable, they should be able to make laws prohibiting those things. The view Justice Stevens expressed to the contrary in his dissenting opinion in Bowers v. Hardwick, which Justice Kennedy signed onto in Lawrence, was dead wrong and destructive to our society. I hope one day Justice Ginsburg (whose views I usually disagree with but whose integrity and reasoning I respect) will retire, an originalist justice will be appointed to replace her, and the Court will reverse its position on that.

Justice Stevens was a maverick who did some damage with his wacky notions when he was on the Court, but most of it can still be undone. He was famously the author of a majority opinion which held that carbon dioxide--you know, that stuff we all exhale with every breath, and that puts the sparkle in our Diet Pepsi--is a "pollutant" within the meaning of the Clean Air Act. As someone who once studied the Clear Air Act and its history pretty thoroughly, I know that is utter nonsense. But it is vintage Stevens.
 
Exactly what is the point of legislation that attempts to reduce personal liberties (that infringe on the rights of no one else), ESPECIALLY if it is unenforceable?

Esp. when such enforcement would indeed breech Constitutional rights like privacy and due process?

What are you talking about? How are sodomy laws unenforceable? You think sodomy only happens between consenting adults and only behind closed doors? Again, what do privacy (NOT a constitutional right) and due process have to do with this? You need to relearn what due process is.
 
I support morals laws.

Enough said. That's pretty much the equivalent of desiring to see religiously based law.

I prefer to see the govt stay out of such things where it clearly has no business when there is no demonstrated harm or infringements on others...govt over-reach and intrusion into personal lives is not remotely a goal I'd like to see furthered.

This isnt really about the law anymore...it's about your personal morals. That's fine. We all have our opinions and beliefs. However I try very hard not to impose mine on others if there's no actual harm or if the imposition is clearly unConstitutional (to me), such as the suppression of personal liberty for no reason.
 
Nudity? Nothing except public health risks. Same with masturbating & fornication...fluids.

and I almost included prostitution in my post...there's no reason that should be illegal. Victimless crime, the govt being 'moral police.' The public doesnt seem to care enough to pressure govts into making it legal, but that may happen someday...society changes.

and you didnt really answer to the hypocrisy of your earlier thread where you did indeed emphasize the unenforceability of law. I dont care if bigamy or adult incest are illegal either...they do no harm to society...if the individual involved consent...who cares? Just judgemental people who have no business in their affairs.

Ah, I see, you've realized your other arguments are bogus and have moved on to the venerable, "who cares?" argument. Well the answer is simply, enough people in that state care enough that the law exists in the first place. They care enough that the law in that state is not overturned.
 
I really don't give a **** about what the sheriff involved gives a **** about. That is Lousiana's problem.

So Police misusing and abusing the Law is OK with you as long as it is someone else.
 
What are you talking about? How are sodomy laws unenforceable? You think sodomy only happens between consenting adults and only behind closed doors? Again, what do privacy (NOT a constitutional right) and due process have to do with this? You need to relearn what due process is.

How does one discover sodomy without due process and the invasion of privacy? Unless, of course, it is happening on the street? I guess I've missed that.

And yes, a right to privacy is explicitly called out (& been interpreted) in more than one amendment. R v W calls on it specifically.
 
How does one discover sodomy without due process and the invasion of privacy? Unless, of course, it is happening on the street? I guess I've missed that.

And yes, a right to privacy is explicitly called out (& been interpreted) in more than one amendment. R v W calls on it specifically.

Yeah, and even the justices realize Roe v Wade was constitutionally groundless. As has been explained to you in this very thread.

To answer your first question, the same way we catch folks breaking other laws when they are trying to hide their illegal activities behind closed doors. By your argument it should be perfectly legal to beat your children as long as no one sees you doing it and you don't leave too many bruises.
 
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