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U.S. Unemployment Falls to Lowest Level Since May 2008[W:489, 497]

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This seems like a pretty typical political discourse that you see anywhere and everywhere. Government of Party A ascribes any bad news to the previous administration, and any improvement to their own good governance. Opposition Party B ascribes any improvement to anyone or anything but the government of Party A ("what specific policy led to this?" they whine), and they blame that same government for any deterioration in anything and everything in the country, or even the world. 'Nepal earthquake kills thousands - thanks Obama!'

The tribalism and pettifogging of modern political discourse in the US, Europe and most of the 'developed' world is the reason for the decline in trust for politicians and disenchantment with the political process - well, that and all the other things that are wrong with 'liberal democracy'.
 
Chomsky said:
there's nothing much more of substance I can add.
Click to expand...

Hey, this stuff is very complicated. I don't pretend to have any great level of knowledge about it. But I do know that some on the Right like to make a lot of false claims about Frank and Dodd and the CRA, etc. There's a lot of good information about this topic available in threads on this forum, but it's not exactly easy to access when it's in very long threads.

>> Boston Globe, U.S. News & World Reports

Yes, those are good publications, imo.

>>(BTW, I too have a Beagle!)

That's a picture of one of my coonhounds when she was a puppy — Susie I, who we lost in 1999, sad to say. But she did live to be seventeen years old. I now have Susie II and her little (step-)sister Mickey (from Michelle), a coonhound/beagle mix. I love all dogs, but hounds are my favourite.

Here's a short clip of my girls playing. ☺
 
Chomsky said:
I'm not saying I agree with either Fenten or ludin, but I am saying I'm going past my boundaries of detailed legislative procedural knowledge of the fiasco, except to say the GOP were at the helm & that pretty much seals the deal of their being culpable in my mind - there's nothing much more of substance I can add.

But I will add that while they were op-ed pages, 'ludin' cited The Boston Globe', which is an excellent source IMO, and also 'U.S. News & World Reports', which is another mainstream source (as far as I'm aware).

(BTW, I too have a Beagle!)
Click to expand...

I will only add that you can't beat "the horses mouth" for a source so I will direct you to a speech made in June 2002 by President Bush himself. Read it and tell me if it sounds like he is trying to inflate a housing bubble. IMO the idea of a "Minority Housing Initiative" by a Republican is suspect right off the bat, but you be the judge.

And so, therefore, I've called -- yesterday, I called upon the private sector to help us and help the home buyers. We need more capital in the private markets for first-time, low-income buyers. And I'm proud to report that Fannie Mae has heard the call and, as I understand, it's about $440 billion over a period of time. They've used their influence to create that much capital available for the type of home buyer we're talking about here. It's in their charter; it now needs to be implemented. Freddie Mac is interested in helping. I appreciate both of those agencies providing the underpinnings of good capital.
Click to expand...

HUD Archives: President George W. Bush Speaks to HUD Employees on National Homeownership Month (6/18/02)
 
iguanaman said:
I will only add that you can't beat "the horses mouth" for a source so I will direct you to a speech made in June 2002 by President Bush himself. Read it and tell me if it sounds like he is trying to inflate a housing bubble. IMO the idea of a "Minority Housing Initiative" by a Republican is suspect right off the bat, but you be the judge.
Click to expand...

"And so, therefore, I've called -- yesterday, I called upon the private sector to help us and help the home buyers. We need more capital in the private markets for first-time, low-income buyers. And I'm proud to report that Fannie Mae has heard the call and, as I understand, it's about $440 billion over a period of time. They've used their influence to create that much capital available for the type of home buyer we're talking about here. It's in their charter; it now needs to be implemented. Freddie Mac is interested in helping. I appreciate both of those agencies providing the underpinnings of good capital."
Click to expand...
Your link didn't work, so I can't see the context of your excerpt - but on it's own it does appear damning in Mr. Bush's culpability.

Thank you for this.
 
Chomsky said:
Your link didn't work
Click to expand...

That's a .cfm file. It may be that you don't have an application on whatever machine yer using that has been selected to open it. It's also available here. If you want, I might be able to help you get it open or else convert it. I'd need to revive some old brain cells.

Here's our friend Ms. Waters commenting on it: House Republicans Ought to be Embarrassed about their Record on Fannie and Freddie.

>>it does appear damning in Mr. Bush's culpability.

I wouldn't blame him a whole lot. He was well-intentioned on this, I figure, and just too trusting of people who didn't at all deserve it.
 
mmi said:
Sadly, I again see this as misplaced praise. I went back and forth with Fenton MANY times on the causes of the housing bubble. I got to the point where I now have made the decision, a very regrettable one in my view, that I will no longer read his posts. It's pointless to do so. I figure this really weakens my ability to argue persuasively in these threads, given that others will read them. But I don't think I have a choice. If I tried to respond to that torrent of nonsense, I'd be unable to participate in these discussions.
Click to expand...

Yes, we went back and forth, you offering up opinions and me offering up fact after fact, backed with links, dates, names, etc.

Eventually I challenged you to rebut my post point by point and like a coward you refused to do so.

Ill offer up the exact same challenge again in this thread.

Ill post a detailed breakdown of what exactly led up tp the 2008 Financial Crises dating back to 1992 with links to back it up and you offer up a point by point rebuttal.

Lets see if you have the integrity and knowledge to back up your rhetoric.
 
mmi said:
That's a .cfm file. It may be that you don't have an application on whatever machine yer using that has been selected to open it. It's also available here. If you want, I might be able to help you get it open or else convert it. I'd need to revive some old brain cells.

Here's our friend Ms. Waters commenting on it: House Republicans Ought to be Embarrassed about their Record on Fannie and Freddie.

>>it does appear damning in Mr. Bush's culpability.

I wouldn't blame him a whole lot. He was well-intentioned on this, I figure, and just too trusting of people who didn't at all deserve it.
Click to expand...


Let me quickly rebut this low lifes Maxine Waters Democrat lies.

2005 GSE Regulatory Senate Bill sb1b190. ( Look it up )

Passed through Senate Banking committee with NO Democrat votes and a promise to Fillibuster by Chris Dodd, ranking Commitee Democrat member if it ever got down to the floor for a vote.

This is why you stopped reading my post.

Because I exposed you as the partisan hack that you are.
 
Fenton said:
Yes, we went back and forth, you offering up opinions and me offering up fact after fact, backed with links, dates, names, etc.
Click to expand...

Quoting people doesn't show the government created a housing bubble. It is ridiculous that i have to even point this out.

Eventually I challenged you to rebut my post point by point and like a coward you refused to do so.
Click to expand...

Given your history of running and hiding, how on earth can you accuse others?

Ill post a detailed breakdown of what exactly led up tp the 2008 Financial Crises dating back to 1992 with links to back it up and you offer up a point by point rebuttal.
Click to expand...

This ought to be interesting. Full blown commentary on.... not data... but commentary.

Lets see if you have the integrity and knowledge to back up your rhetoric.
Click to expand...

It's time to go to school son.
 
mmi said:
That's a .cfm file. It may be that you don't have an application on whatever machine yer using that has been selected to open it. It's also available here. If you want, I might be able to help you get it open or else convert it. I'd need to revive some old brain cells.

Here's our friend Ms. Waters commenting on it: House Republicans Ought to be Embarrassed about their Record on Fannie and Freddie.

>>it does appear damning in Mr. Bush's culpability.

I wouldn't blame him a whole lot. He was well-intentioned on this, I figure, and just too trusting of people who didn't at all deserve it.
Click to expand...
I wasn't 'damning' him as a person, but in the context of the larger debate, "Which party was responsible for the economy in 2008" - whatever their intention, I feel the majority party & the White House are where the buck stops. It's their job (as leaders) to lead! (IMHO)

When their leadership produces good results - I give them credit.

When their leadership produces poor results (or is lacking, thereby producing poor results) - I hold them to take that responsibility, too.
 
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Kushinator said:
Quoting people doesn't show the government created a housing bubble. It is ridiculous that i have to even point this out.



Given your history of running and hiding, how on earth can you accuse others?



This ought to be interesting. Full blown commentary on.... not data... but commentary.



It's time to go to school son.
Click to expand...

You're as big as a left wing hack as they come Kush.

I wouldn't expect you to understand anything I've posted on the 2008 Subprime mortgage crisis.
 
Fenton said:
You're as big as a left wing hack as they come Kush.

I wouldn't expect you to understand anything I've posted on the 2008 Subprime mortgage crisis.
Click to expand...
Oh..........the IRONY!
 
Fenton said:
Let me quickly rebut this low lifes Maxine Waters Democrat lies.

2005 GSE Regulatory Senate Bill sb1b190. ( Look it up )


Passed through Senate Banking committee with NO Democrat votes and a promise to Fillibuster by Chris Dodd, ranking Commitee Democrat member if it ever got down to the floor for a vote.

This is why you stopped reading my post.

Because I exposed you as the partisan hack that you are.
Click to expand...

OK I looked it up and found this....


NEW YORK (CBS.MW) -- Strong opposition by the Bush administration forced a top Republican congressman to delay a vote on a bill that would create a new regulator for mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

The vote on Rep. Michael Oxley's bill to reform oversight of government-sponsored entities including Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac was scheduled for Wednesday. Oxley, an Ohio Republican, is chairman of the House Financial Services Committee.
Click to expand...

Oxley pulls bill under fire from Bush - MarketWatch
 
Chomsky said:
I wasn't 'damning' him as a person, but in the context of the larger debate
Click to expand...

Yes, that's why I used "blame" and not "damn." You don't seem like the type to go around damning others.

>>I feel the majority party & the White House are where the buck stops.

A valid argument. And, importantly, that's the way elections are typically decided

iguanaman said:
OK I looked it up and found this
Click to expand...

And as I recall, Mr. Oxley was working with Mr. Frank on that.
 
iguanaman said:
OK I looked it up and found this....




Oxley pulls bill under fire from Bush - MarketWatch
Click to expand...

HR1461..

Yep, Barney Frank added a affordable lending slush fund to the Bill and it pushed off a third party regulator for a year or more.

Thats why it was stopped in favor of sb190. You should read beyond your left wing hack links and learn something.

Which NO Democrats on the Senate Banking committee voted for.

When sb190 was pushed back through a Democrat controlled senate in 2007 as sb1100, it never made it out of Committee.
 
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Fenton said:
You're as big as a left wing hack as they come Kush.
Click to expand...

The binary interpretation of an extremist is less than compelling.

I wouldn't expect you to understand anything I've posted on the 2008 Subprime mortgage crisis.
Click to expand...

I can read quotes from Clinton, Raines, Reno, etc.... What you (persistently) fail to realize is they don't mean much within the context of the discussion. In order to show the government caused the housing bubble, you have to provide data (lots of it). Calling all subprime loans "worthless" cannot be confused with data analysis.
 
Fenton said:
HR1461..

Yep, Barney Frank added a affordable lending slush fund to the Bill and it pushed off a third party regulator for a year or more.

Thats why it was stopped in favor of sb190. You should read beyond your left wing hack links and learn something.

Which NO Democrats on the Senate Banking committee voted for.

When sb190 was pushed back through a Democrat controlled senate in 2007 as sb1100, it never made it out of Committee.
Click to expand...
1995-2006 No legislation to further regulate GSEs is passed by a Republican-controlled
Congress.

October 7, 2004 The House Financial Services Committee Chairman Michael Oxley (R-OH)
cancels a markup on legislation to reform GSEs at the request of President Bush.
According to CBS Marketwatch: “Strong opposition by the Bush Administration
forced a top Republican congressman to delay a vote on a bill that would create a
new regulator for mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.”
May 25, 2005
The House Financial Services Committee, under control of House Republicans and
Chairman Oxley, passed a GSE Reform bill, H.R. 1461, by a vote of 65-5. Every
Democrat on the Committee voted for the bill. Five Republicans, arguing that the
bill did not go far enough, voted against H.R. 1461: Reps. Ed Royce, Ron Paul,
Tom Feeney, Jeb Hensarling, and Scott Garrett.
July 28, 2005
The Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee, then chaired by Sen.
Richard Shelby (R-AL), passed S. 190, the Bush Administration’s bill, out of
Committee. The bill was passed by a party-line vote of 11-10. The bill did not
reach the Senate floor for a vote.
October 26, 2005 On the day the House was scheduled to vote on H.R. 1461, the Bush
Administration issued a Statement of Administration Policy opposing the House
Republican GSE bill.
October 26, 2005 H.R. 1461 passes House by a vote of 331-90, with 122 Democrats voting in favor.
Note: Frank voted against the bill when it reached the floor, but not because of
any opposition to reforming the GSEs, but because the Republican leadership
decided to cut out funding for faith-based charities that provide low-income rental
housing from the Affordable Housing Trust Fund.
September 2006 Oxley and Frank send a bipartisan letter to Senator Shelby urging GSE reform.
Many Democrats and Republicans signed this letter urging the Senate to act.

http://democrats.financialservices....11/timeline_for_fannie_freddie_regulation.pdf
 
Gimmesometruth said:
1995-2006 No legislation to further regulate GSEs is passed by a Republican-controlled
Congress.

October 7, 2004 The House Financial Services Committee Chairman Michael Oxley (R-OH)
cancels a markup on legislation to reform GSEs at the request of President Bush.
According to CBS Marketwatch: “Strong opposition by the Bush Administration
forced a top Republican congressman to delay a vote on a bill that would create a
new regulator for mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.”
May 25, 2005
The House Financial Services Committee, under control of House Republicans and
Chairman Oxley, passed a GSE Reform bill, H.R. 1461, by a vote of 65-5. Every
Democrat on the Committee voted for the bill. Five Republicans, arguing that the
bill did not go far enough, voted against H.R. 1461: Reps. Ed Royce, Ron Paul,
Tom Feeney, Jeb Hensarling, and Scott Garrett.
July 28, 2005
The Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee, then chaired by Sen.
Richard Shelby (R-AL), passed S. 190, the Bush Administration’s bill, out of
Committee. The bill was passed by a party-line vote of 11-10. The bill did not
reach the Senate floor for a vote.
October 26, 2005 On the day the House was scheduled to vote on H.R. 1461, the Bush
Administration issued a Statement of Administration Policy opposing the House
Republican GSE bill.
October 26, 2005 H.R. 1461 passes House by a vote of 331-90, with 122 Democrats voting in favor.
Note: Frank voted against the bill when it reached the floor, but not because of
any opposition to reforming the GSEs, but because the Republican leadership
decided to cut out funding for faith-based charities that provide low-income rental
housing from the Affordable Housing Trust Fund.
September 2006 Oxley and Frank send a bipartisan letter to Senator Shelby urging GSE reform.
Many Democrats and Republicans signed this letter urging the Senate to act.

http://democrats.financialservices....11/timeline_for_fannie_freddie_regulation.pdf
Click to expand...

You left a couple of details out.

Sb 190 was passed through the Committee with this many Democrat votes ( Zero )

And a promise of a Rule 22 Fillibuster if it ever made It down to the Senate floor for a vote by the ranking Democrat on the Committee, Chris Dodd.

Democrats used the Rule 22 Fillibuster option repeatedly during the Bush presidency to marginalize the GOP majority.

Sb190 was re-introduced back into the Committee as Sb1100 in 2007 after the Democrats had taken back the Senate and chaired the committee.

Of-course, it never made it out of Committee.

The Democrats repeatedly fought off any attempt to regulate the two most corrupt Financial entities involved in the Subprime mortgage crisis during the Bush presidency.

But once Fannie and Freddie were declared insolvent, they passed regulatory reform.
 
Kushinator said:
The binary interpretation of an extremist is less than compelling.



I can read quotes from Clinton, Raines, Reno, etc.... What you (persistently) fail to realize is they don't mean much within the context of the discussion. In order to show the government caused the housing bubble, you have to provide data (lots of it). Calling all subprime loans "worthless" cannot be confused with data analysis.
Click to expand...

Huh ??

Yea sure.

Janet Reno AND Robert Rubin bragging about the effectiveness of Clintons CRA changes and the effectivness of his Fair lending task force is not in context ? Lol.

Ruben and Reno even quantified the sucess of his CRA changes and his Fair lending Task Force and I've posted their quotes over and over and over.

Its not in context with the debunked left wing narratives that blame the banks and Bush but its definitely relevant to what actually happened.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Thanks for your response. I may not agree with all or most of your views on this, but I do respect that at least you have an educated view and rationale for your support for President Obama and not just some offhanded "Obama is great" nonsense. I'm glad to hear about people prospering in today's economy.
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Well sir I appreciate your response not being an insult because I try my best to educate myself on why one politician or the other is good or bad for US and NA in general. Another thing that Obama is pushing for that I am all for (despite my union taking a neutral position on it) is the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement. Something I think could help both our countries out.
 
JohnWOlin said:
Well sir I appreciate your response not being an insult because I try my best to educate myself on why one politician or the other is good or bad for US and NA in general. Another thing that Obama is pushing for that I am all for (despite my union taking a neutral position on it) is the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement. Something I think could help both our countries out.
Click to expand...

You're quite right. Similar to Bill Clinton and NAFTA, Obama is on the wrong side of many in the Democrat Party when it comes to the TPTA. Canada has been active in establishing trade agreements with Asian countries and the EU, knowing full well that unless we open up to all markets, we'll be left behind. It won't be great for everyone, but it will benefit the economy as a whole. And it's about time we break down a lot of the artificial barriers to our goods entering Asian markets, your autos being one sector.
 
DA60 said:
The U-3 (the official 'unemployment rate') means almost nothing, imo.

You do realize that the U-3 could theoretically be almost zero even though NO ONE is employed?
Click to expand...

If that was the case, then we would be living in a world where there is no scarcity because technology is taking care of most of our needs. That's the ultimate goal of humanity, being able to spend our time however we chose.
 
imagep said:
That's the ultimate goal of humanity, being able to spend our time however we chose.
Click to expand...

Uh-oh. Does that mean I would spend even more time reading and posting at DP? Maybe my job isn't so bad after all.
 
CanadaJohn said:
You're quite right. Similar to Bill Clinton and NAFTA, Obama is on the wrong side of many in the Democrat Party when it comes to the TPTA. Canada has been active in establishing trade agreements with Asian countries and the EU, knowing full well that unless we open up to all markets, we'll be left behind. It won't be great for everyone, but it will benefit the economy as a whole. And it's about time we break down a lot of the artificial barriers to our goods entering Asian markets, your autos being one sector.
Click to expand...

Yeah I can see the bad in the agreement, but the good is far better than the bad overall.
 
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