• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

Yes it is. Where is the criticism? There is none. It's all, "Wow, Pope Francis has a slightly less draconian tone that previous popes, even if he's really saying the exact same thing!" That's all I've been hearing since this guy stepped in. So the message that sends is, "Yeah, we're cool now." But we're not.

What has typically worked when this is applied to countries is simply ignoring their requests to join until they reach that benchmark. No praise. If they apply, they are refused. They get nothing until they reach the benchmark.

And that is how the civilized world should be dealing with the Catholic church.

I think positive reinforcement can be a good thing. I also think most people that had a problem with the church before Pope Francis still have a problem with it now, despite possibly giving props to the Pope for attempting to take the church out of the middle ages. I think future popes might see how popular Francis was and attempt to follow that trend.
 
For non-Catholics, no, I don't think we should.

That gives the impression that this is in any way good enough. It isn't. The church is barely what might be considered acceptable to exist by legal technicality. That is not good enough in 2015. And if he wants praise and to be welcome at the table of civilized societies, then he needs to keep working.

No deal.

I wasn't aware you were put in charge of brokering deals on behalf of all civilized societies everywhere, congrats.

Meanwhile, back on planet earth, there are a billion Catholics to whom the pope's actions are highly relevant. You have every right to not be one of them, but you have no right to speak for them.
 
Please answer the question I asked you. Should the Catholic Church be suppressed?

In some respects, yes. It is operating criminal cover for paedophiles, and has been for decades, and in that respect, it absolutely needs to be "suppressed," by which I mean all people who have committed, covered for, or ignored these activities need to be sent to prison. They need to be dealt with as aggressively as possible so the Church gets the message that we will not permit this to continue.

Otherwise, as pertains to their questionable ethical positions and negative advocacy in the world, I think they deserve to be either ignored or openly criticized, and considered unwelcome at the table of civilized nation states, since the Vatican fancies itself a sovereign.
 
This is an interesting baby step. Still a baby step, in a situation where long strides are necessary, but this is an interesting way to move the church slowly away from its entrenched misogyny and maybe remain relevant in the modern world. Whether he's as much of a force for good as some would like him to be or not, you really can't deny that this pope is crafty. He seems to have a plan and is definitely going with it.

Yeah, but it still seems silly that, because it is holy year, and because a special representative has some kind of supernatural power, he can mumble some words and wave his hands and revoke someone's ticket to hell.

Symbolism
 
I wasn't aware you were put in charge of brokering deals on behalf of all civilized societies everywhere, congrats.

Meanwhile, back on planet earth, there are a billion Catholics to whom the pope's actions are highly relevant. You have every right to not be one of them, but you have no right to speak for them.

The first words of my post are "for non-Catholics." Try reading -- it may stop you from spouting nonsense.
 
I think positive reinforcement can be a good thing. I also think most people that had a problem with the church before Pope Francis still have a problem with it now, despite possibly giving props to the Pope for attempting to take the church out of the middle ages. I think future popes might see how popular Francis was and attempt to follow that trend.

Well, the reality is Pope Francis hasn't done much. Paleocon is not wrong; there's only one unforgivable sin, and abortion was never it. He is not doing anything new at all. He is just a better speaker than most recent popes. He's being praised for empty speeches, not real change. So he sounds better while peddling the same draconian nonsense. Whooptie-do.
 
The Church has always offered forgiveness to sinners of all types. There is no change.

Compared to $cientology, which has a price list for everything in the religion, the higher up you go, the more you pay!

Gotta hand it to them, they had a good model for soaking their people for all they had to find out secret information...at least until the internet came around, and you can read all the OT levels...:)
 
Yeah, but it still seems silly that, because it is holy year, and because a special representative has some kind of supernatural power, he can mumble some words and wave his hands and revoke someone's ticket to hell.

Symbolism

Obviously, in that gods and hell and supernatural things are all nonsense. But the power of such a big and wealthy organization cannot be denied and so it is better to use it for good than for evil, so I applaud any step that would push it in a positive direction. As I said earlier and as SnM pointed out, there's still a looooooong way to go.
 
Well, the reality is Pope Francis hasn't done much. Paleocon is not wrong; there's only one unforgivable sin, and abortion was never it. He is not doing anything new at all. He is just a better speaker than most recent popes. He's being praised for empty speeches, not real change. So he sounds better while peddling the same draconian nonsense. Whooptie-do.

He's working on changing perspective. People would flip if the Pope suddenly came out in favor of everything you would require the church to do in order to join the civilized world; it wouldn't work. He has to be subtle.
 
excommunication is a perversion when compared to abortion
 
He's working on changing perspective. If the Pope suddenly came out in favor of everything you would require the church to do in order to join the civilized world people would flip; it wouldn't work. He has to be subtle.

Ok. :shrug: I'm still not going to praise what is basically same-old, same-old -- literally no change at all. It's not good enough. It's not anything at all, in fact. It is not news to anyone that the Catholic Church offers "forgiveness" to women who abort.

The only thing that is new is that, now, he is apparently targeting women who are trying to escape the Church. And if anything, I find that to be a step backwards, as though the Church has any right to decide whether a given woman will or won't be in it. They don't consent to being in the Church. Leave them alone.
 
Obviously, in that gods and hell and supernatural things are all nonsense. But the power of such a big and wealthy organization cannot be denied and so it is better to use it for good than for evil, so I applaud any step that would push it in a positive direction. As I said earlier and as SnM pointed out, there's still a looooooong way to go.

It is a nice gesture, but, it is all BS anyway. If your church can just arbitrarily do this (or sell indulgences) whenever they deem it to be an extra special super Holy Year, then it is just proof that religion is man made, and this is just a marketing ploy. I did a lot of years as a RC, did K-12 in Catholic school, I was well educated, but I found the entire religion to be bollocks.
 
In some respects, yes. It is operating criminal cover for paedophiles, and has been for decades, and in that respect, it absolutely needs to be "suppressed," by which I mean all people who have committed, covered for, or ignored these activities need to be sent to prison. They need to be dealt with as aggressively as possible so the Church gets the message that we will not permit this to continue.

Otherwise, as pertains to their questionable ethical positions and negative advocacy in the world, I think they deserve to be either ignored or openly criticized, and considered unwelcome at the table of civilized nation states, since the Vatican fancies itself a sovereign.

I get that it contradicts your most fundamental beliefs to admit that those beliefs require suppressing dissent, but let's continue with this.

Since you make wildly inaccurate claims (operating cover for pedophiles), I assume that you're referring to something else, probably the seal of confession, is that correct?
 
I get that it contradicts your most fundamental beliefs to admit that those beliefs require suppressing dissent, but let's continue with this.

Since you make wildly inaccurate claims (operating cover for pedophiles), I assume that you're referring to something else, probably the seal of confession, is that correct?

No. I'm simply talking about the working MO of the Catholic Church over the last 50+ years or so. It has been well aware of organized pedophilia in its ranks all over the world for at least that long (if not much longer) and has done very little, sometimes actively protecting known pedophiles. It's not my problem if you wish to bury your head in the sand, and since no fruitful debate can be held with you in that position, I won't bother until such a time as you pull it out again. :shrug:
 
No. I'm simply talking about the working MO of the Catholic Church over the last 50+ years or so. It has been well aware of organized pedophilia in its ranks all over the world for at least that long (if not much longer) and has done very little, sometimes actively protecting known pedophiles. It's not my problem if you wish to bury your head in the sand, and since no fruitful debate can be held with you in that position, I won't bother until such a time as you pull it out again. :shrug:

So again, exactly what measures should be taken against the Church?
 
So again, exactly what measures should be taken against the Church?

I already said this: the need to be arrested, tried, and jailed if they are found to have been negligent or complicit in anything having to do with this. Just like they are everywhere else in the developed world -- which the Catholic Church apparently doesn't consider itself part of.
 
I already said this: the need to be arrested, tried, and jailed if they are found to have been negligent or complicit in anything having to do with this. Just like they are everywhere else in the developed world -- which the Catholic Church apparently doesn't consider itself part of.

Does that include confessors?
 
Does that include confessors?

It ideally includes anyone and everyone who did the things listed above, and belongs to the human race. So yes.

Seriously, you're asking if such things are an excuse for pedophilia? Really?
 
I believe the Pope is trying to bring more left leaning ideas into the church in hopes of keeping his religion relevant.

But his church isn't relevant, no churches are. He's just desperate to keep his job in the face of millions of Catholics seeing the light and flooding out of his churches. The only people who are sticking around are from poor nations and that doesn't buy him any more golden thrones, does it?
 
He openly criticizes capitalism and says society should be taking care of the poor. Now he's trying to make the church less critical of abortion.

Yet he hasn't sold one thing in the Vatican and donated the money to the poor. Hypocrisy much?
 
It ideally includes anyone and everyone who did the things listed above, and belongs to the human race. So yes.

Seriously, you're asking if such things are an excuse for pedophilia? Really?

So you want to imprison Catholic priests for upholding the seal of confession.

This would have all been a lot simpler if you would have just said clearly that you wanted the Church suppressed.

People that confess to being involved in pedophilia? Hell yes it does.

I said confessors, not penitents.
 
People that confess to being involved in pedophilia? Hell yes it does.

The church has always had privileges that it simply doesn't deserve, and by this, I don't mean just the Catholics, but all religions. There is no other group out there that isn't required, by law, to come forward if they learn of a crime being committed. None. Just those idiots in dresses and funny hats. We need to take away those undeserved privileges and make them act responsibly, but of course the whole of the Catholic Church would implode if we forcibly held them accountable for the priest sex scandal.
 
I said confessors, not penitents.

My bad. Well, that does put the confessors is a very awkward situation. In the end I don't think a religion should shield somebody from justice.
 
My bad. Well, that does put the confessors is a very awkward situation. In the end I don't think a religion should shield somebody from justice.

So are you saying that priests who uphold the seal should be arrested?
 
Back
Top Bottom