• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Shot NYPD cop dies

The case I remember was a young boy firing a full auto gun, losing control and shooting the range instructor. I'm sure this kind of thing happens all the time though because people make poor life choices.

Hardly a freak accident if it happened twice, is it?
 
Hardly a freak accident if it happened twice, is it?

We don't know if it happened twice, nobody has presented the two stories to see if they are the same or not. Even if it was though, two shootings out of millions of kids with guns is not suddenly an epidemic.
 
Do we protest every death? I dont. I would wait until I saw if the justice system worked.

Seems like it is so far, on his behalf. And I havent excused his murder.

Also seems like you're a little hysterical right now. Cuz there was little that made sense in your post. Accustory hyperbole, yes.

Not hysterical, (nice try at baiting).:mrgreen:

imo, protesting is much to do about nothing. that is there are better ways to induce change.

My point, if people want to protest over a LEO shooting of a citizen, then they should be willing to protest when a LEO is shot/killed by a citizen.
 
You know where I stand there.

Uzi's should be banned.

Two, the dad should go to jail.

But the US in its wisdom does not ban Uzi's; so like high powered cars and substances, Americans need to learn to live with them.

I am constantly horrified at the demand for gun control as some sort of "safety" idea when in fact it is religion; all the while the real carnage is on US highways.

With the logic of anti-gunism, all roads should be banned, let alone cars, buses, trucks, motor cycles et all

It is so darn odd that you make the exact same argument that liberals do about guns and cars.

Weird huh? Because I'm one of them and not the only one.

Talk about logic! Real solid ground you're on there! :roll:
 
I ask this question earlier. Who would be the target of the protest in this scenario? And why protest cop killing now? Cops killed in the line of duty isn't exactly a new thing.

By the way. In case you didn't know, the guy was caught with the help from the same community that some say were happy that the officer was murdered.

I was aware the shooter was caught.

and LEO killing suspect/citizen is not a new thing, either. :mrgreen:
 
Its not that hard to find international comparison stats if you really want to.

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take out the firearms from the equation and US murder rates overall would not be too dissimilar from those of the UK and other developed countries

You've been told that in such a large country with many socio-economically challenged areas, the great majority of those gun deaths are criminals and gangbangers. And then an unfortunate subset of suicides. But personally, there's no way in heck that someone else's mental issues should be a reason to infringe on my gun rights.

General gun deaths and accidents outside of those concentrated violent areas is very low.
 
Not hysterical, (nice try at baiting).:mrgreen:

imo, protesting is much to do about nothing. that is there are better ways to induce change.

My point, if people want to protest over a LEO shooting of a citizen, then they should be willing to protest when a LEO is shot/killed by a citizen.

Oh honey, just look at the emotion you were throwin' out there in your posts :doh I just figured 'drama queen' would get me banned so of course I didnt call you that.

And good for you and your opinion.
 
The case I remember was a young boy firing a full auto gun, losing control and shooting the range instructor. I'm sure this kind of thing happens all the time though because people make poor life choices.

It was a young girl.
 
You've been told that in such a large country with many socio-economically challenged areas, the great majority of those gun deaths are criminals and gangbangers. And then an unfortunate subset of suicides. But personally, there's no way in heck that someone else's mental issues should be a reason to infringe on my gun rights.

General gun deaths and accidents outside of those concentrated violent areas is very low.

You guys seem to believe you are the only country with criminals and socio economic problems. On the contrary you are the only developed country with a major gun problem that greatly exacerbates them.
 
The fact that more than three quarters of the output of Hollywood or your TV dramas involve gunplay in one form or another coupled with easy access to many of the guns often featured must certainly have a major psychological effect for many though. The glorification of gun violence as entertainment cannot be right and by dint of its saturation exposure must ultimately take its toll in the real world

That's a BS comparison. Both of our countries have lots of cop shows and detective dramas...TV & movies...the difference is that our cops carry guns and yours dont. It's just part of the jobs that's different....but the shows arent to highlight violence, they are about solving mysteries and crimes. And criminals often resort to violence. I watch British shows all the time...your criminals are plenty violent.
 
No statistically you are about 40 times more likely to be shot than I am

No, it almost totally depends on where you live. That 40% is not remotely evenly spread across the country.

The great majority of Americans are at no greater risk of gun accident or death than any other country that has not deprived its people of guns.
 
No, it almost totally depends on where you live. That 40% is not remotely evenly spread across the country.

The great majority of Americans are at no greater risk of gun accident or death than any other country that has not deprived its people of guns.

By just keeping a gun in their homes they are putting both themselves and their families at much greater risk than they face from crime. We've been through all this already so do I really have to repost everything I have previously that backs this up ?
 
By just keeping a gun in their homes they are putting both themselves and their families at much greater risk than they face from crime. We've been through all this already so do I really have to repost everything I have previously that backs this up ?

And yet...that is not where the vast, VAST majority of the stats you post come from....those accidents and injuries are very low, on par with drownings and dog bites. Not only that, there are many instances where those firearms protect those people (yeah yeah, trot out the whole 'you are more likely to be killed by your own gun' crap.) Bull....

So you are just flinging poop here....if you want to skew the data blindly to support your beliefs, feel free....you are the one living under the thumb of a population that just willingly handed over a piece of their freedom to their govt and apparently value safety over freedom.

"Freedom doesnt mean safe, it means free."
 
And yet...that is not where the vast, VAST majority of the stats you post come from....those accidents and injuries are very low, on par with drownings and dog bites. Not only that, there are many instances where those firearms protect those people (yeah yeah, trot out the whole 'you are more likely to be killed by your own gun' crap.) Bull....

As you were shown already at great length and referencing multiple studies and crime stats you are WRONG

So you are just flinging poop here....if you want to skew the data blindly to support your beliefs, feel free....you are the one living under the thumb of a population that just willingly handed over a piece of their freedom to their govt and apparently value safety over freedom.

I don't need to skew anything to support my position the numbers are the numbers. We are far freer than you will ever be given we are free of the fear of being shot so keep waving the flag and circling the wagons as long as you like

"Freedom doesnt mean safe, it means free."

Call me picky but I'm pretty sure freedom is not defined by the ability to kill or be killed with far greater facility. Thats not a 'freedom' anyone else in the civilised world would recognise as such nor choose to indulge in for fairly obvious reasons. They just need to look at the US as the perfect example why.
 
Last edited:
Terrible, just terrible especially for his co-workers and loved ones. He is blissfully unaware of the heartache he leaves behind under his colleagues and his loved ones. There is no excuse whatsoever to kill a police officer like this (and to not make people misunderstand, but if a police officer is strangling you or is trying to illegally kill you outside and in contravention of what is legal).
 
As you were shown already at great length and referencing multiple studies and crime stats you are WRONG



I don't need to skew anything to support my position the numbers are the numbers. We are far freer than you will ever be given we are free of the fear of being shot so keep waving the flag and circling the wagons as long as you like



Call me picky but I'm pretty sure freedom is not defined by the ability to kill or be killed with far greater facility. Thats not a 'freedom' anyone else in the civilised world would recognise as such nor choose to indulge in for fairly obvious reasons. They just need to look at the US as the perfect example why.
Flogger, your posts on this are a great example of progressive authoritarianism...You don't live here but think you can tell us what we should own, or not own...:roll:

I am happy that you agree with the policies of where you live, and hope you stay there...;)
 
Flogger, your posts on this are a great example of progressive authoritarianism...You don't live here but think you can tell us what we should own, or not own...:roll:
Perhaps I just don't like hypocrisy that attempts to conflate freedom with the ability to kill and be killed with ever greater facility. That has nothing whatsoever to do with authoritarianism but just basic human values

I am happy that you agree with the policies of where you live, and hope you stay there...;)

I'm glad I don't live somewhere where I have to live in armed paranoid fear of everyone else too
 
Where did I do that ?


right...




They have been using the same methodologies since 1981 with todays crime figures being at historic lows since then

Scotland Yard chief admits claims of crime figure manipulation contain some truth - Telegraph


Why risk your family by doing so ?


My family is not at risk and more than yours.


No statistically you are about 40 times more likely to be shot than I am


incorrect. given that over 90% of all gun violence in the US involves people with criminal records on people with criminal records, I am NOT "40 times more likely to be shot" than you...
 
Perhaps I just don't like hypocrisy that attempts to conflate freedom with the ability to kill and be killed with ever greater facility. That has nothing whatsoever to do with authoritarianism but just basic human values

wait what? restricting people from means if self defense is freedom?


I'm glad I don't live somewhere where I have to live in armed paranoid fear of everyone else too

You live according to your "location" in Wokingham, England

"according to a 2007 study by Halifax, the town was named best in Britain; average earnings of £744 a week put Wokingham residents in the top 5% earners in the country, and 84% owned their own homes, despite house prices being higher even than the south-east average. "



I would bet most people in rich white enclaves would feel the same as you, in any country. ;)
 
Scotland Yard chief admits claims of crime figure manipulation contain some truth - Telegraph

Ahem people in glass houses .....

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/new...al-crime-data-found-to-be-flawed-manipulated/

My family is not at risk and more than yours.

On the contrary you are at far greater risk then I

Firearms in US homes as a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality
Association between handgun purchase and mortality from firearm injury -- Grassel et al. 9 (1): 48 -- Injury Prevention
Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study

incorrect. given that over 90% of all gun violence in the US involves people with criminal records on people with criminal records, I am NOT "40 times more likely to be shot" than you...

Bend the figures whichever way you want but you are hugely more likely to be shot than I am and most likely from your own gun by someone who knows you using it

wait what? restricting people from means if self defense is freedom?

What percentage of your 30,000 gun deaths and 100,000 non lethal shootings per annum were defensive ? I'd wager your offensive and accidental shootings outnumber your defensive ones by at least 50 to 1

You live according to your "location" in Wokingham, England
I would bet most people in rich white enclaves would feel the same as you, in any country

Yes indeed Wokingham is a fine place to live ,but the first 35 years of my life I lived in Kilmarnock recently voted the worst place to live in Scotland (by all means look that up too if you want) so I'm well aware of life at both ends of the socio economic spectrum in the UK
 
Last edited:
It's happened to about every liberal-run city in the US.

That's because most conservative run cities are small Mayberry like areas that are easier to manage. As the city grows, so does the problems.
 

Not to keen on your source, but it doesn't matter, I wasn't the one making the claims.


On the contrary you are at far greater risk then I

Nonsense. statistically removing the criminal element, I am in no greater danger than you.

Furthermore, if I live in such a dangerous society and we should ban guns, perhaps after you get them out of the hands of the criminals killing each other, we can open a dialog.

if the wolf is knocking at my door as you seem to imply, why the **** would I give up my gun?



I broke my promise not to argue gun control on the internet, these have all been addressed and dealt with over and over again, I won't waste my time debunking or putting into perspective this hoplophobic statist propaganda.


Bend the figures whichever way you want but you are hugely more likely to be shot than I am and most likely from your own gun by someone who knows you using it

Being huge in the gun culture myself, from being in the military, a contractor a tactical firearms instructor, to a moderator on the largest carbine forum on the internet, why is it, I can't recall this nonsense ever happening to any of the thousands of people I am acquainted with?

What percentage of your 30,000 gun deaths and 100,000 non lethal shootings per annum were defensive ? I'd wager your offensive and accidental shootings outnumber your defensive ones by at least 50 to 1


*sigh*

* Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day.(1) This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.(2)

* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense with a firearm every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America"—a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.(3)

* Concealed carry laws have reduced murder and crime rates in the states that have enacted them. According to a comprehensive study which reviewed crime statistics in every county in the United States from 1977 to 1992, states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their rate of murder by 8.5%, rape by 5%, aggravated assault by 7% and robbery by 3%.(4)

* Anti-gun journal pronounces the failure of the Brady law. One of the nation’s leading anti-gun medical publications, the Journal of the American Medical Association, found that the Brady registration law has failed to reduce murder rates. In August 2000, JAMA reported that states implementing waiting periods and background checks did "not [experience] reductions in homicide rates or overall suicide rates."(5)

* Twice as many children are killed playing football in school than are murdered by guns. That’s right. Despite what media coverage might seem to indicate, there are more deaths related to high school football than guns. In a recent three year period, twice as many football players died from hits to the head, heat stroke, etc. (45), as compared with students who were murdered by firearms (22) during that same time period.(6)

GOA fact sheet.


Yes indeed Wokingham is a fine place to live ,but the first 35 years of my life I lived in Kilmarnock recently voted the worst place to live in Scotland (by all means look that up too if you want) so I'm well aware of life at both ends of the socio economic spectrum in the UK

Not sure how that changes my point. *shrug*
 
Nonsense. statistically removing the criminal element, I am in no greater danger than you.

The studies I linked prove otherwise

Furthermore, if I live in such a dangerous society and we should ban guns, perhaps after you get them out of the hands of the criminals killing each other, we can open a dialog.

You'll never do that whilst you make it so easy for them to aquire them. Under your insane system they can just send out their wives and girlfriends to 'legally' buy them for them

if the wolf is knocking at my door as you seem to imply, why the **** would I give up my gun?

Have you had a problem with such 'wolves' then ? I suspect you grossly exaggerate your fear of crime over the reality of it in attempting to defend the indefensible

I broke my promise not to argue gun control on the internet, these have all been addressed and dealt with over and over again, I won't waste my time debunking or putting into perspective this hoplophobic statist propaganda.
Tell that to the relatives of the young officer needlessly killed in the OP

Being huge in the gun culture myself, from being in the military, a contractor a tactical firearms instructor, to a moderator on the largest carbine forum on the internet, why is it, I can't recall this nonsense ever happening to any of the thousands of people I am acquainted with?

I'm an ex Falklands war veteran myself with two tours in N Ireland too. Your national statistics speak for themselves

* Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day.(1) This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.(2)

* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense with a firearm every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America"—a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.(3)

* Concealed carry laws have reduced murder and crime rates in the states that have enacted them. According to a comprehensive study which reviewed crime statistics in every county in the United States from 1977 to 1992, states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their rate of murder by 8.5%, rape by 5%, aggravated assault by 7% and robbery by 3%.(4)

Even the gun crime stats for the best state in the US are far worse than those of any other developed country

* Anti-gun journal pronounces the failure of the Brady law. One of the nation’s leading anti-gun medical publications, the Journal of the American Medical Association, found that the Brady registration law has failed to reduce murder rates. In August 2000, JAMA reported that states implementing waiting periods and background checks did "not [experience] reductions in homicide rates or overall suicide rates."(5)

* Twice as many children are killed playing football in school than are murdered by guns. That’s right. Despite what media coverage might seem to indicate, there are more deaths related to high school football than guns. In a recent three year period, twice as many football players died from hits to the head, heat stroke, etc. (45), as compared with students who were murdered by firearms (22) during that same time period.(6)

Lets look at some facts instead

Gun deaths in children: Statistics show firearms endanger kids despite NRA safety programs.

Not sure how that changes my point. *shrug*

You were trying to smear me as some rich white guy from an affluent part of England that didn't know any better. I explained that I wasn't
 
Back
Top Bottom