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Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit [W:439, 529, 978, 1489]

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Wow.. such a compelling rebuttal.

Since 2001, jihadists have killed 13 people on US soil. Right wing extremists have killed 34. Exactly zero jihadists aquired or used chemical or biological weapons compared to 13 right wing terrorists, one left wing terrorist, and two with idiosyncratic beliefs.

Frazier Glenn Cross killed three people at two Jewish centers in 2014. He founded the Carolina Knights of the KKK and the White Patriot Party.
Wade Michael Page killed six people at a Sikh temple in 2012, twice the death toll of the Boston Marathon bombings. He was in a white supremacist band.
Shawna Forde, Albert Gaxiola, and Jason Bush raided a home in Arizona in 2009, killing two in an effort to fund their anti-immigration vigilante group, Minutemen American Defense.
In 2009 Scot Roeder murdered Dr. George Tiller. Scott Roeder also had ties to the Sovereign Citizens.


And many many more...
I'm not saying that jihadists aren't a threat, but in order of danger it goes something like this : Right Wing Terrorists > Unaffiliated Terrorists > Left Wing Terrorists > Islamic Terrorists.
You ignored the killings of 2,977 people on September 11, 2001 and the attempted killings of many more.

The rest are nut cases and neither left, right or middle.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

So your position is that not gratuitously offending another via self censorship is the same as cowering in silence. Fine Grant, beat your chest in triumphal free speech and accept the consequences for your senseless and needless Offense.
I never used the word 'cower' but if you feel that it suits those who would prefer silence to 'offensive' free speech then it may be appropriate.

Are you prepared to silence any 'provocation' of Christians and Jews as well?
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Moderator's Warning:
Folks, the thread is getting heated again. People need to tamp down the flaming and baiting one-liners and stick to discussing the topic
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

I do as well, and hope there are many advocates of free speech who support her.

That anyone needs armed guards in America today to exercise their freedom of speech is apparently going unnoticed, that this is a natural consequence of criticizing Islam. And not being critical of Islam, but the critic, seems to have gained a great deal of support.

There are advocates of free speech that don't support her. I will also point out that as an atheist I may be debating a Christian and make a comment in the course of it that the Christian may find offensive. But my sensibilities consider that quite different from gratuitously drawing ridiculing cartoons of Jesus. I considered the "art" piece, the crucifix in piss (I believe it was) to be a fair expression of the "artists" free speech. But I also considered it gratuitously offensive, of no value, mean spirited and something I would never go and look at. It's also something that I would never produce myself.

This straw man argument that somebody wants to censor somebodies free speech is a facade for bigots, and nasty and hateful people who have nothing better to do than spew their hatred. And knuckle dragging mouth breathers lined up in Gellers studio to draw their cute little cartoons. Bet non of them will participate in such a childish game again though.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

I never used the word 'cower' but if you feel that it suits those who would prefer silence to 'offensive' free speech then it may be appropriate.

Are you prepared to silence any 'provocation' of Christians and Jews as well?

What's wrong with you. I've repeated often enough my opposition to public/government censorship of anybody's 1st amendment right. So stop asserting such foolishness. I've suggested that reasonable people censor themselves regularly, not wishing to gratuitously offend the sensibilities of others. That's what separates ladies and gentlemen from bigots and haters. The only benefit one gets from drawing ridiculing cartoons of Mohamed is the satisfaction of antagonising a hated group. Again, knock yourselves out and accept the consequences.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

There are advocates of free speech that don't support her. I will also point out that as an atheist I may be debating a Christian and make a comment in the course of it that the Christian may find offensive.
Sure. But you know your life and your safety will not be in jeopardy by offending Christians.
But my sensibilities consider that quite different from gratuitously drawing ridiculing cartoons of Jesus. I considered the "art" piece, the crucifix in piss (I believe it was) to be a fair expression of the "artists" free speech. But I also considered it gratuitously offensive, of no value, mean spirited and something I would never go and look at. It's also something that I would never produce myself.
Certainly it was juvenile, offensive, and an attention getter but his life was never in jeopardy. There were protests made and they were largely against the idea that this display was publicly funded. But no one responded in the same way then as they have against Pamela Geller.
This straw man argument that somebody wants to censor somebodies free speech is a facade for bigots, and nasty and hateful people who have nothing better to do than spew their hatred. And knuckle dragging mouth breathers lined up in Gellers studio to draw their cute little cartoons. Bet non of them will participate in such a childish game again though.
You share the same opinion as the Jihadists and you may be right that it will never happen again. Do you expect more threats from Muslims, perhaps a larger contingent the next time, if a similar contest be held?
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

What's wrong with you. I've repeated often enough my opposition to public/government censorship of anybody's 1st amendment right. So stop asserting such foolishness. I've suggested that reasonable people censor themselves regularly, not wishing to gratuitously offend the sensibilities of others. That's what separates ladies and gentlemen from bigots and haters. The only benefit one gets from drawing ridiculing cartoons of Mohamed is the satisfaction of antagonising a hated group. Again, knock yourselves out and accept the consequences.
Am I right then in that you support self-censorship when it comes to mocking, antagonizing or criticizing Muslims?
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Sure. But you know your life and your safety will not be in jeopardy by offending Christians.
Certainly it was juvenile, offensive, and an attention getter but his life was never in jeopardy. There were protests made and they were largely against the idea that this display was publicly funded. But no one responded in the same way then as they have against Pamela Geller.
You share the same opinion as the Jihadists and you may be right that it will never happen again. Do you expect more threats from Muslims, perhaps a larger contingent the next time, if a similar contest be held?

Grant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nobody's suggesting that the response to Geller has a shred of legitimacy. Its unfortunate that these extremists consider killing a proportionate response to Geller's ugliness. But then I guess that's the reason they're extremists! But there is a legitimate criticism of Geller and her troops who could not deny themselves the impulse to gratuitously offend the sensibilities of a group they hate so. But for the umpteenth time, let them continue their stage show till the extremists succeed in killing somebody.

And yes, I suspect that as long as Geller and others continue to insist that they have a free speech right to openly antagonise a religious group for no other benefit then the satisfaction that they get out of offending the sensibilities of a group of people that they hate, that they will continue to fall under attack.
 
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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Am I right then in that you support self-censorship when it comes to mocking, antagonizing or criticizing Muslims?

I just provided you with an example of how I support self censorship when it comes to gratuitously mocking, antagonising and criticising Christians, too! What's your point?
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Grant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nobody's suggesting that the response to Geller has a shred of legitimacy. Its unfortunate that these extremists consider killing a proportionate response to Geller's ugliness. But then I guess that's the reason they're extremists! But there is a legitimate criticism of Geller and her troops who could not deny themselves the impulse to gratuitously offend the sensibilities of a group they hate so. But for the umpteenth time, let them continue their stage show till the extremists succeed in killing somebody.
The 'extremists' are killing people with or without these exhibitions. This contest only offered an excuse that you and many others might understand and criticize but usually they are killing just for the sake of killing, to spread fear and intimidation throughout the non-Muslim world.

These two Muslims killed in Garland were ready to kill other innocent people at a venue which probably wouldn't have armed guards, just as other 'extremists' have done in coffee shops, grocery stores, pizza parlors, and so on. They don't need an excuse to kill.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

I just provided you with an example of how I support self censorship when it comes to gratuitously mocking, antagonising and criticising Christians, too! What's your point?
Just wanted clarification. thanks.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

What the hell is happening here?
What I believe we're seeing here Bubba, is a similar situation to what often plays out in some neighborhood bars on a hot Saturday night -

+++

A drunk is loud & threatening, and the patrons react in differing ways:

- Some ignore his talk - thinking it's just drunken noise, and they'll let the management or authorities deal with the miscreant, rather than escalate the situation.

- Others decide to take matters in their own hands, & confront the guy straight-on.

The confronters think the ignorers lack spine & scruples.

The ignorers think the conronters lack common sense and maturity.

+++

Obviously the Texas incident has more facets & nuances than a neighborhood bar indecent, but I think the underlying dynamics form a reasonable analogy.

I spent a lot of time in neighborhood bars back-in-the-day, and early-on learned there's a mean drunk looking for a fight in pretty much every bar, and there's no way I'd ever give them the pleasure of drawing me into a drunken fight.

Honestly though, in this case it appears to me the confronters aren't just confronting to eliminate the situation, but are standing on the other end of the bar, yelling back & goading the drunk into coming down and fighting!

Well, that's my take on it, anyway.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

And yes, I suspect that as long as Geller and others continue to insist that they have a free speech right to openly antagonise a religious group for no other benefit then the satisfaction that they get out of offending the sensibilities of a group of people that they hate, that they will continue to fall under attack.
I believe you are correct here.

And it is their constitutional right to do so (unless the authorities deem their activities a hazard or breaking the peace), and as an American I feel obliged to support them, and I do - we are all brethren.

But as an individual person, I disagree with what they're doing.

The worst of all this is: some relative minority is bringing unnecessary danger upon others in the greater community who may not want any part of this. The old saying, "A bullet knows no name" is a truism, and I'm sure it applies to bombs, biologicals, and other methods of death & destruction. It also applies to returned fire.

It is my understanding the community fought hard against this event, and the vote to precede was a close one - and for good reason: No one wants to take a piece of lead for someone else's crusade. This crowd is playing with real danger here, and somebody's going to get hurt - and that somebody is just as likely to be an innocent as one of the participants.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

The 'extremists' are killing people with or without these exhibitions. This contest only offered an excuse that you and many others might understand and criticize but usually they are killing just for the sake of killing, to spread fear and intimidation throughout the non-Muslim world.

These two Muslims killed in Garland were ready to kill other innocent people at a venue which probably wouldn't have armed guards, just as other 'extremists' have done in coffee shops, grocery stores, pizza parlors, and so on. They don't need an excuse to kill.

Yeah unfortunately they probably were. But what does that have to do with Geller's provocation.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

I believe you are correct here.

And it is their constitutional right to do so (unless the authorities deem their activities a hazard or breaking the peace), and as an American I feel obliged to support them, and I do - we are all brethren.

But as an individual person, I disagree with what they're doing.

The worst of all this is: some relative minority is bringing unnecessary danger upon others in the greater community who may not want any part of this. The old saying, "A bullet knows no name" is a truism, and I'm sure it applies to bombs, biologicals, and other methods of death & destruction. It also applies to returned fire.

It is my understanding the community fought hard against this event, and the vote to precede was a close one - and for good reason: No one wants to take a piece of lead for someone else's crusade. This crowd is playing with real danger here, and somebody's going to get hurt - and that somebody is just as likely to be an innocent as one of the participants.

Good point there that hasn't been mentioned yet. I use to live in Garland, but glad to be gone. I would have been really pissed off at Geller for inviting that violence into my neighbourhood had I still been living there. Though I would prefer that people self censor then to have the "authorities" deciding how people ought to express their 1st amendment rights.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Though I would prefer that people self censor then to have the "authorities" deciding how people ought to express their 1st amendment rights.
Obviously.

But then if everyone would self 'do the right thing', we wouldn't need any 'authorities'! :mrgreen:
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Obviously.

But then if everyone would self 'do the right thing', we wouldn't need any 'authorities'! :mrgreen:

Yep, democracy isn't easy. Wasn't it Bush that lamented how much easier his job would be if he were only a dictator.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

What I believe we're seeing here Bubba, is a similar situation to what often plays out in some neighborhood bars on a hot Saturday night -

+++

A drunk is loud & threatening, and the patrons react in differing ways:

- Some ignore his talk - thinking it's just drunken noise, and they'll let the management or authorities deal with the miscreant, rather than escalate the situation.

- Others decide to take matters in their own hands, & confront the guy straight-on.

The confronters think the ignorers lack spine & scruples.

The ignorers think the conronters lack common sense and maturity.

+++

Obviously the Texas incident has more facets & nuances than a neighborhood bar indecent, but I think the underlying dynamics form a reasonable analogy.

I spent a lot of time in neighborhood bars back-in-the-day, and early-on learned there's a mean drunk looking for a fight in pretty much every bar, and there's no way I'd ever give them the pleasure of drawing me into a drunken fight.

Honestly though, in this case it appears to me the confronters aren't just confronting to eliminate the situation, but are standing on the other end of the bar, yelling back & goading the drunk into coming down and fighting!

Well, that's my take on it, anyway.
I understand your analogy but what if the drunk comes in and says you have to drink Heineken and you say nah, you work for Coors and that's all you drink.
Will you change? Will you leave?

And that's in a public bar.

But what if it was a private home and they heard that you're having a party and serving Coors and they burst in to make you serve Heineken.

That's an even more precise analogy.

Nope. Sorry. There's no place for Constitutional compromise on this. The slope is too slippery and we're already half way down.

The more we, all of us, unabashedly exercise our rights the less anyone will be inclined to think they can forcibly persuade us not to.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Wow.. such a compelling rebuttal.

Since 2001, jihadists have killed 13 people on US soil. Right wing extremists have killed 34. Exactly zero jihadists aquired or used chemical or biological weapons compared to 13 right wing terrorists, one left wing terrorist, and two with idiosyncratic beliefs.

Frazier Glenn Cross killed three people at two Jewish centers in 2014. He founded the Carolina Knights of the KKK and the White Patriot Party.
Wade Michael Page killed six people at a Sikh temple in 2012, twice the death toll of the Boston Marathon bombings. He was in a white supremacist band.
Shawna Forde, Albert Gaxiola, and Jason Bush raided a home in Arizona in 2009, killing two in an effort to fund their anti-immigration vigilante group, Minutemen American Defense.
In 2009 Scot Roeder murdered Dr. George Tiller. Scott Roeder also had ties to the Sovereign Citizens.


And many many more...
I'm not saying that jihadists aren't a threat, but in order of danger it goes something like this : Right Wing Terrorists > Unaffiliated Terrorists > Left Wing Terrorists > Islamic Terrorists.

Funny how you want to start the count AFTER 9/11! :roll:

Since 2000:

2000 October 13: Firebombing of Temple Beth El

2000 New York terror attack Three young men of Arab descent hurled crude Molotov cocktails at a synagogue in The Bronx, New York

2001 September 11: the September 11, 2001 attacks were carried out by Muslim extremists.

2002 July 4: 2002 Los Angeles Airport shooting Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, a 41-year-old Egyptian national, killed two Israelis and wounds four others at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport.

October 2002 Beltway sniper attacks: During three weeks in October 2002, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo killed 10 people and critically injured 3 others in Washington D.C., Baltimore, and Virginia.

2006 March 5: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar injured 6 when he drove an SUV into a group of pedestrians at UNC-Chapel Hill to "avenge the deaths or murders of Muslims around the world".

2006 July 28: Seattle Jewish Federation shooting, Naveed Afzal Haq, an American citizen of Pakistani descent, killed one woman and shoots five others at the Jewish Federation building in Seattle.

2009 June 1: Arkansas recruiting office shooting: Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad shot and killed one military recruiter and seriously wounded another at a Little Rock

2009 November 5: 2009 Fort Hood shooting: Nidal Malik Hasan, a US Army Major serving as a Psychiatrist
2013 April 15: Boston Marathon bombings

2014 October 23: 2014 New York City hatchet attack

2014 December 20: Ismaaiyl Brinsley assassinated New York City police officers

2015 May 3: Curtis Culwell Center attack




And now the thwarted attempts:

2001 December: Attemped bombing of Flight 63 with shoe bomb

2002 May: Thwarted attempt to build and detonate a dirty bomb

2003 March: Attempted attack on the Brooklyn Bridge

2003 June: Eleven members of the "Norther Virginia Jihad Network" sentenced to 30 years

2004 August: Attack of 34th Street Subway station in New York

2004 August: Jihadis arrested in attempt to assassinate Pakistani diplomat

... ah hell, I am tired of writing them all down. There have been 13 successful Islamic terrorist attacks and 20+ failed attacks since the year 2000


Your attempt to balance the sheet by NOT counting explosive or conventional weapon attacks is noted and ignored because it is pointless.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

They're dead? Good.

The right to offend must be protected.

These folks are the bane of the Islamic community, always ruining it for everyone else.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Funny how you want to start the count AFTER 9/11! :roll:

Since 2000:

2000 October 13: Firebombing of Temple Beth El

2000 New York terror attack Three young men of Arab descent hurled crude Molotov cocktails at a synagogue in The Bronx, New York

2001 September 11: the September 11, 2001 attacks were carried out by Muslim extremists.

2002 July 4: 2002 Los Angeles Airport shooting Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, a 41-year-old Egyptian national, killed two Israelis and wounds four others at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport.

October 2002 Beltway sniper attacks: During three weeks in October 2002, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo killed 10 people and critically injured 3 others in Washington D.C., Baltimore, and Virginia.

2006 March 5: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar injured 6 when he drove an SUV into a group of pedestrians at UNC-Chapel Hill to "avenge the deaths or murders of Muslims around the world".

2006 July 28: Seattle Jewish Federation shooting, Naveed Afzal Haq, an American citizen of Pakistani descent, killed one woman and shoots five others at the Jewish Federation building in Seattle.

2009 June 1: Arkansas recruiting office shooting: Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad shot and killed one military recruiter and seriously wounded another at a Little Rock

2009 November 5: 2009 Fort Hood shooting: Nidal Malik Hasan, a US Army Major serving as a Psychiatrist
2013 April 15: Boston Marathon bombings

2014 October 23: 2014 New York City hatchet attack

2014 December 20: Ismaaiyl Brinsley assassinated New York City police officers

2015 May 3: Curtis Culwell Center attack




And now the thwarted attempts:

2001 December: Attemped bombing of Flight 63 with shoe bomb

2002 May: Thwarted attempt to build and detonate a dirty bomb

2003 March: Attempted attack on the Brooklyn Bridge

2003 June: Eleven members of the "Norther Virginia Jihad Network" sentenced to 30 years

2004 August: Attack of 34th Street Subway station in New York

2004 August: Jihadis arrested in attempt to assassinate Pakistani diplomat

... ah hell, I am tired of writing them all down. There have been 13 successful Islamic terrorist attacks and 20+ failed attacks since the year 2000


Your attempt to balance the sheet by NOT counting explosive or conventional weapon attacks is noted and ignored because it is pointless.

Where on earth would you get that idea? The mention of chemical and biological attacks/plots is important because those have the potential to cause the most harm. And there have been 12 such right wing plots and 1 left wing plots on US soil. Obviously conventional attacks are also important.

And I did provide an accurate accounting, even though I did not record every single terrorist attack. The point isn't that Islamic terrorism isn't a threat, the point is that hyperventilating about the threat because of the attacks in Texas is ridiculous. There's more of a threat from right wing terrorist organizations (and left wing environmental terrorists as well).
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

When people are that predictably 'incite-able' you must know they are a problem.

Two guys attacked out of a billion...
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

"When people prefer to focus on the motives of the victims rather than on the motives of the attackers, they will ignore the single most important matter: that an art exhibition, or free speech, has been targeted".

The motives of the attackers were never in question.
 
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