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Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit [W:439, 529, 978, 1489]

Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Liberal bull****.

No man shall live in threat of his life for declaring that which be believes. The only exceptions are the inevitable shouting fire in a theatre.

FFS you people love to see Jesus depicted as a clown, gay, laughing on the cross, and Christians don't blow **** up, and if they did, you would have them hunted and killed. FFS, a girl in Indiana speculates about a pizza catered gay wedding and draws death threats, and not one liberal, from the President to whatever worm is running for the job had not one comment. They tacitly approved those death threats.

Now, here you are tacitly approving and excusing mob violence to silence free speech.

What we all love about "progressive" ethics is that they are as flexible as a snake

It takes instances like these to remind us of where the left stands (for itself only). They spend the interim between said events convincing everyone that they dont actually mean what they do.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

However, some people have at least implied that a violent reaction should have been almost expected.

well if you keep getting violent reactions from doing something then yes it should be but that doesn't make it right
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Yep, and being Gay and a non-believer is a provocation to these people too.

People need to stop being Gay and Christian because if Islamist kill them then its kind of their fault.

Sounds like the Hillary Clinton "Bimbo" attack.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

The issue here is simple. This event was designed to get a reaction from the "enemy", either in the US (preferably I bet) or abroad some where. It was the whole goal of the organizers to provoke and they are hiding behind this so called free speech.... free speech they want to deny Muslims.. oddly enough.

Now they got the reaction exactly as they had hoped, so they can now use this attack in their hate filled ignorant jihad/crusade against Islam and in turn the radicals in Islam will use this event and attack to bolster their radical ideas within Islam by claiming "look the Christians are attacking us" bull****. This is never ending crap and it has to stop.

Religious wars are dangerous as hell.. ask the French about their religious wars that cost them up to 25% of their population (some say up to 40%) because of Christians fighting it out over who loves Jesus more. Or the English religious wars that burnt Christians at the stake because they believed in a different idea of Christianity.. Or Christian slaughter of Jerusalem in 1099. The list of wars and atrocities done in the name of religion go on and on, and this event was just another skirmish in a new war between radical Christians and Muslims... and it has to freaking stop.

It was about free speech. It was a way to protest the people who censored themselves in France in order to appease the extremely religious Muslims . Which is not a bad thing and it was handled well with no casualties besides the perpetrators . It was a drawing contest and drawing of anything should not in anyway be censored.

I'm very well aware of the problems with religion , but offending so ones religion is in no way a reason to censors someone . Anyone is allowed to be critical.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

maybe I figured he was talking about this story

Nope he's just talking about the morons on this site.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Pretty sure you shouldn't be harmed walking through Compton shouting the N word either.

sounds right
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

I just think it's a shame people have to stoop that low to get their opinion heard, I also think its a shame for the Police officers and all other local security forces that are put in danger due to events like these.

I agree generally that the event was distasteful, just as the piss Christ art exhibit is distasteful, but I can't get behind the "blame the victim" mentality that somehow excuses the vast overreaction of deadly violence as a response to a cartoon.

All US residents should be held to the expectation that they can and will behave rationally. If we cannot expect the Muslim community to do so, what sense then does it make to allow people you don't believe are capable of normal, rational behavior to live and work in your country?
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

It's more like blaming the rape victim because she wore a short skirt.

pretty much
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Pretty sure I should be free from getting mugged or shot because I have $100 in my pocket, too. What's your point?

your right

the point is people should not commit crimes against you because they want to
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Nope he's just talking about the morons on this site.

Yep, the people that save their criticisms for the victims of Militant Islamist and hide when the same Islamist stone Homosexuals and Women.

These people in Texas had it coming because they were " provocative ". I guess being Gay or a Women in SaudI Arabia is provocative also.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

When you capitulate, or become cowed as a society because you fear irrational Muslims overreacting to something as harmless as a cartoon with deadly violence...you've lost not only your balls but your soul as well.

You can't let a bunch of immigrants come in and push you around. This is Texas, we have freedom of speech and hold it very dear here. Outsiders are welcome, but if you're so offended by someone else's speech that you think violent outrage is the correct response, you need to get your ass out of my state and back to whatever sand dune you came from.

We're not moving one inch, or giving up one iota of our freedom for these pretenders.
You've got a very different situation on your hands which needs a lot of careful handling. For good or for bad, America has welcomed Muslims as citizens of their country. We have done the same in the UK. Muslims come from very different cultural backgrounds to ours. In many of their countries of origin, it is more likely that they deal with actions which dishonour them and their brethren with violence - anything less is considered weakness.

We have the right to expect some sort of openness to Western culture from Muslims who settle here, such openness does not always exist. If it's not there, then integration will never happen and it's best for all concerned if they are helped to go to a country they like. However, if there is some openness to integration, it will be fragile and the actual process of integration will be painful, slow and not necessarily successful. Many Muslims have a backstory of bitterness towards Western nations such as the UK and the US who have killed so many of their fellow Muslims over the years. As we know, their religion is also fervent. Integration of large numbers of Muslims into Western countries is probably one of the most ambitious programmes ever attempted in social history, and to be honest, it's not going very well, probably because we had no idea what we were getting involved in.

So, having taken the decision to welcome people into our nations as fellow citizens, who have such incredibly different values to ours, we have some onus to show them respect for their personal beliefs (like we do for different Christian groups). We owe this to ourselves and to them if we want to make our society work. If we say, these are our values - shape up or ship out, and by the way we support people who ridicule your values, it's just not going to work. Given that we are willing to make an effort to respect difference in so many areas of our lives, is it really so hard for our societies to agree not to ridicule the dearest tenets of their religion? Is that such a big sacrifice? Do we have to stand on principle and say it's my right to mock your religion - this is what America / UK etc is about? Can we not take issue with Islam and its problems in a civilised way?
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

You've got a very different situation on your hands which needs a lot of careful handling. For good or for bad, America has welcomed Muslims as citizens of their country. We have done the same in the UK. Muslims come from very different cultural backgrounds to ours. In many of their countries of origin, it is more likely that they deal with actions which dishonour them and their brethren with violence - anything less is considered weakness.

We have the right to expect some sort of openness to Western culture from Muslims who settle here, such openness does not always exist. If it's not there, then integration will never happen and it's best for all concerned if they are helped to go to a country they like. However, if there is some openness to integration, it will be fragile and the actual process of integration will be painful, slow and not necessarily successful. Many Muslims have a backstory of bitterness towards Western nations such as the UK and the US who have killed so many of their fellow Muslims over the years. As we know, their religion is also fervent. Integration of large numbers of Muslims into Western countries is probably one of the most ambitious programmes ever attempted in social history, and to be honest, it's not going very well, probably because we had no idea what we were getting involved in.

So, having taken the decision to welcome people into our nations as fellow citizens, who have such incredibly different values to ours, we have some onus to show them respect for their personal beliefs (like we do for different Christian groups). We owe this to ourselves and to them if we want to make our society work. If we say, these are our values - shape up or ship out, and by the way we support people who ridicule your values, it's just not going to work. Given that we are willing to make an effort to respect difference in so many areas of our lives, is it really so hard for our societies to agree not to ridicule the dearest tenets of their religion? Is that such a big sacrifice? Do we have to stand on principle and say it's my right to mock your religion - this is what America / UK etc is about? Can we not take issue with Islam and its problems in a civilised way?

Isn't it more appropriate to expect that the immigrant population attempt to assimilate or at least not kill people for holding the views they have?
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

You've got a very different situation on your hands which needs a lot of careful handling. For good or for bad, America has welcomed Muslims as citizens of their country. We have done the same in the UK. Muslims come from very different cultural backgrounds to ours. In many of their countries of origin, it is more likely that they deal with actions which dishonour them and their brethren with violence - anything less is considered weakness.

We have the right to expect some sort of openness to Western culture from Muslims who settle here, such openness does not always exist. If it's not there, then integration will never happen and it's best for all concerned if they are helped to go to a country they like. However, if there is some openness to integration, it will be fragile and the actual process of integration will be painful, slow and not necessarily successful. Many Muslims have a backstory of bitterness towards Western nations such as the UK and the US who have killed so many of their fellow Muslims over the years. As we know, their religion is also fervent. Integration of large numbers of Muslims into Western countries is probably one of the most ambitious programmes ever attempted in social history, and to be honest, it's not going very well, probably because we had no idea what we were getting involved in.

So, having taken the decision to welcome people into our nations as fellow citizens, who have such incredibly different values to ours, we have some onus to show them respect for their personal beliefs (like we do for different Christian groups). We owe this to ourselves and to them if we want to make our society work. If we say, these are our values - shape up or ship out, and by the way we support people who ridicule your values, it's just not going to work. Given that we are willing to make an effort to respect difference in so many areas of our lives, is it really so hard for our societies to agree not to ridicule the dearest tenets of their religion? Is that such a big sacrifice? Do we have to stand on principle and say it's my right to mock your religion - this is what America / UK etc is about? Can we not take issue with Islam and its problems in a civilised way?

Mocking their religion doesn't start and stop with cartoon depictions of their prophet.

Western Society and principles that somtimes include Democracy and Liberty mock their religion.

Integration as Americans should understand it is diversity existing under the principles that made America what it is.

Those principles shouldn't change.

A culture that opposes on principle the fundamental beliefs that made America what it is today should not be encouraged to participate.

Multiculturalism was IMO a foolish gamble and initiative that was put into practice without allot of thought towards the possible consequences.

Its one thing to bring In immigrants with different languages and traditions. Its another to bring un people who's traditions include Religious and idelogical beliefs that can't evolve as a part of integration.
 
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Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Moderator's Warning:
Folks, this is getting heated. Some infractions have already gone out and I'll be looking back in the thread for any issues prior to this warning. But I'd suggest going forward that everyone tone it down and stay within the rules
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

You've got a very different situation on your hands which needs a lot of careful handling. For good or for bad, America has welcomed Muslims as citizens of their country. We have done the same in the UK. Muslims come from very different cultural backgrounds to ours. In many of their countries of origin, it is more likely that they deal with actions which dishonour them and their brethren with violence - anything less is considered weakness.

We have the right to expect some sort of openness to Western culture from Muslims who settle here, such openness does not always exist. If it's not there, then integration will never happen and it's best for all concerned if they are helped to go to a country they like. However, if there is some openness to integration, it will be fragile and the actual process of integration will be painful, slow and not necessarily successful. Many Muslims have a backstory of bitterness towards Western nations such as the UK and the US who have killed so many of their fellow Muslims over the years. As we know, their religion is also fervent. Integration of large numbers of Muslims into Western countries is probably one of the most ambitious programmes ever attempted in social history, and to be honest, it's not going very well, probably because we had no idea what we were getting involved in.

So, having taken the decision to welcome people into our nations as fellow citizens, who have such incredibly different values to ours, we have some onus to show them respect for their personal beliefs (like we do for different Christian groups). We owe this to ourselves and to them if we want to make our society work. If we say, these are our values - shape up or ship out, and by the way we support people who ridicule your values, it's just not going to work. Given that we are willing to make an effort to respect difference in so many areas of our lives, is it really so hard for our societies to agree not to ridicule the dearest tenets of their religion? Is that such a big sacrifice? Do we have to stand on principle and say it's my right to mock your religion - this is what America / UK etc is about? Can we not take issue with Islam and its problems in a civilised way?

Good post. In a society there are all kinds of people. Most americans are very tolerant and respectful of muslims, as most muslims are of non-muslims in america. Then you get to the extremists on both sides.

You can say Ms. Geller's group is insensitive to muslims and you'd be correct, but what they did was LEGAL. The ISIS response was to show up with guns intent on killing someone for voicing their crude but legal opinion. In this country, you don't get to do that, even if you are muslim, sorry, shooting people is ILLEGAL. You come to our country, you have to obey our laws. It is against the law to murder people. They tried, they were gunned down in the street like they should have been.

You're never going to get all the people to line up in neat little rows. When a group does something you don't like, you can legally litigate, or tolerate it. You don't get to go kill them for it.

It's like flag burning, many don't like it, but many fought for their RIGHT to burn the flag. That's what free speech is about. I have not seen a vet shoot a flag burner. In this country you have to deal with it differently.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas [W:439]

This was not terrorism! This was workplace violence

Repeat after me: Workplace violence. Workplace violence. Workplace violence.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Considering that this so called voicing of an opinion was designed to create a reaction somewhere... then this is no different than the actual act committed. It is like shouting fire in a crowded theatre and people getting trampled to death.. you are still responsible for the trampling even though you have your "free speech" to shout fire.

I'm sorry but this is ridiculously wrong and based around a horribly incorrect understanding of how the laws work in the United States.

First, shouting "fire" in a theater is not inherently against the law. Neither is it against the law simply because people get trampled. It is only against the law if there is some kind of legitimate injurous circumstance from it and the shouting of such was done with knowledge that such a claim was false.

Second, the REASON that is not okay is because there's a REASONABLE expectation that a panic will be caused by shouting such a thing in a crowded place because it's again REASONABLE that people would react to that speech by trying to flee as fast as possible. As such, your "speech" being done fraudulently (in the case where there is no fire and you know htat) is meant to incite a REASONABLE response from the observers.

That in NO WAY is comparable to this situation. In no way, shape, or form is murder a reasonable and justifiable response to "drawing pictures of muhammed". Its not a reasonable or justifiable response to 1000 people all drawing 1000 pictures of muhammed in one locatoin. MURDERING someone due to their speech is never viewed as "reasonable" or "justifiable" as it relates to the law in this country.

As such, this is not akin to yelling fire fraudulently in a crowded theater, because the response in question is one that no one should REASONABLE assume that any REASONABLE member of the audience would actually engage in.

Your post is beyond ridiculous and non-sensical as an analogy.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

You've got a very different situation on your hands which needs a lot of careful handling. For good or for bad, America has welcomed Muslims as citizens of their country. We have done the same in the UK. Muslims come from very different cultural backgrounds to ours. In many of their countries of origin, it is more likely that they deal with actions which dishonour them and their brethren with violence - anything less is considered weakness.

We have the right to expect some sort of openness to Western culture from Muslims who settle here, such openness does not always exist. If it's not there, then integration will never happen and it's best for all concerned if they are helped to go to a country they like. However, if there is some openness to integration, it will be fragile and the actual process of integration will be painful, slow and not necessarily successful. Many Muslims have a backstory of bitterness towards Western nations such as the UK and the US who have killed so many of their fellow Muslims over the years. As we know, their religion is also fervent. Integration of large numbers of Muslims into Western countries is probably one of the most ambitious programmes ever attempted in social history, and to be honest, it's not going very well, probably because we had no idea what we were getting involved in.

So, having taken the decision to welcome people into our nations as fellow citizens, who have such incredibly different values to ours, we have some onus to show them respect for their personal beliefs (like we do for different Christian groups). We owe this to ourselves and to them if we want to make our society work. If we say, these are our values - shape up or ship out, and by the way we support people who ridicule your values, it's just not going to work. Given that we are willing to make an effort to respect difference in so many areas of our lives, is it really so hard for our societies to agree not to ridicule the dearest tenets of their religion? Is that such a big sacrifice? Do we have to stand on principle and say it's my right to mock your religion - this is what America / UK etc is about? Can we not take issue with Islam and its problems in a civilised way?

America has hundreds of years of experience when it comes to mass immigration. Our country is primarily made up of immigrants with all different backgrounds and stories.

The way it has worked best in the past, and the way it will work this time, is that the immigrants are the ones who need to conform to our values and beliefs, not the other way around. You're welcome to come to the land of opportunity and you're free to pursue the best life for yourself, but don't expect anyone else to learn about your culture or capitulate to you. You're in Anerica, start acting like an American.

This formula has worked for generations, no reason to deviate from it now.

Freedom of speech is not something we're going to willingly give up, especially to assuage a group of radicals who generally are distrusted to begin with.

They're gonna have to learn to hack it just like every other generation of immigrants before them. And in the Wild West, if you come on with your guns drawn, the lawmen might just shoot you down. Lesson learned and score 1 for the good guys.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

hosting a "lets draw the prophet" party is right up there with sticking a fork into a live toaster.

The fact that you feel a group of people getting together to draw pictures of a religious figure is similar to sticking a metal object into a toaster in terms of risk, potential for harm, and danger to me speaks FAR MORE about those reacting to the event then it tells me about the people doing it.

I'd think the fact that there's seemingly a large enough contingent of a particular religion that is so extremist in nature that drawing a religious figure is equivelent in danger to jabbing metal into electrical objects is mindbogglingly problematic.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

The fact that you feel a group of people getting together to draw pictures of a religious figure is similar to sticking a metal object into a toaster in terms of risk, potential for harm, and danger to me speaks FAR MORE about those reacting to the event then it tells me about the people doing it.

I'd think the fact that there's seemingly a large enough contingent of a particular religion that is so extremist in nature that drawing a religious figure is equivelent in danger to jabbing metal into electrical objects is mindbogglingly problematic.


It is problematic and until we can get on top of this home grown Islamic extremism events like these will continue to be dangerous to those participating and those forced to protect the participants.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

It is problematic and until we can get on top of this home grown Islamic extremism events like these will continue to be dangerous to those participating and those forced to protect the participants.

Indeed they will.

And being a female out at 1:30 AM, tipsy and alone, walking through somewhat dark streets to the local metro station is also sadly a potential dangerous situation compared to most...and yet we wouldn't, and don't, suggest females should stop going out to Bars or blame them if a guy takes advantage of such a situation to rape her.

Do I like the event they held? No. Do I think it was childish and juvenile, meant far more to be provocative and trollish than any legitimate desire to care about "free speech"? Yes. But does that mean they SHOULDN'T have done their event? No. People shouldn't stop attempting to express themeslves...no matter how stupid it may be..simply because a group MIGHT do something violent to them, because all thta does is encourage other groups to take up a similar tactic because it shows that IT WORKS.

If not for my local sports teams being in the playoffs, I'd still have this as my signature and it'd be just as appropriate as it was when I first put it there:

Kyle: That's because there is no goo, Mr. Cruise. You see, I learned something today. Throughout this whole ordeal, we've all wanted to show things that we weren't allowed to show, but it wasn't because of some magic goo. It was because of the magical power of threatening people with violence. That's obviously the only true power. If there's anything we've all learned, it's that terrorizing people works.

Jesus: That's right. Don't you see, gingers, if you don't want to be made fun of anymore, all you need are guns and bombs to get people to stop.

Santa: That's right, friends. All you need to do is instill fear and be willing to hurt people and you can get whatever you want. The only true power is violence.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Indeed they will.

And being a female out at 1:30 AM, tipsy and alone, walking through somewhat dark streets to the local metro station is also sadly a potential dangerous situation compared to most...and yet we wouldn't, and don't, suggest females should stop going out to Bars or blame them if a guy takes advantage of such a situation to rape her.

Do I like the event they held? No. Do I think it was childish and juvenile, meant far more to be provocative and trollish than any legitimate desire to care about "free speech"? Yes. But does that mean they SHOULDN'T have done their event? No. People shouldn't stop attempting to express themeslves...no matter how stupid it may be..simply because a group MIGHT do something violent to them, because all thta does is encourage other groups to take up a similar tactic because it shows that IT WORKS.


I think what we are seeing is unprecedented and security agencies from France, UK, US, Germany etc are saying that it is almost impossible to track all these "bedroom fanatic's". We have seen one of the world's biggest marathons attacked in broad daylight, over a thousand Muslims leave Europe to join ISIS in Syria, a British soldier beheaded in the street, a French Newspaper attacked by trained armed men etc and all in the last 2 years.
Again for me until we can get to grips with it I think these kind of events are just simply too dangerous and reckless, plus it's not like they haven't stepped in before to stop these kind of things that Florida pastor rings a bell.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

America has hundreds of years of experience when it comes to mass immigration. Our country is primarily made up of immigrants with all different backgrounds and stories.

The way it has worked best in the past, and the way it will work this time, is that the immigrants are the ones who need to conform to our values and beliefs, not the other way around. You're welcome to come to the land of opportunity and you're free to pursue the best life for yourself, but don't expect anyone else to learn about your culture or capitulate to you. You're in Anerica, start acting like an American.

This formula has worked for generations, no reason to deviate from it now.

Freedom of speech is not something we're going to willingly give up, especially to assuage a group of radicals who generally are distrusted to begin with.

They're gonna have to learn to hack it just like every other generation of immigrants before them. And in the Wild West, if you come on with your guns drawn, the lawmen might just shoot you down. Lesson learned and score 1 for the good guys.
|Points taken but the historic approach won't work with many Muslims, for the reasons I set out in my post. We are talking about a group of people with huge obstacles to integration. No doubt, this problem was not anticipated in the US - it certainly wasn't in the UK.

I would say that, if nothing changes, you're heading for a showdown. The right of free speech isn't going to change and IMO doesn't need so much focus. It would be conciliatory for Muslims to hear from Americans that they don't consider that insulting the religion of American Muslims is a morally acceptable way to behave and that the organisers of this meeting were wrong to put it on. Let's hope Barack Obama says something conciliatory.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

I think what we are seeing is unprecedented and security agencies from France, UK, US, Germany etc are saying that it is almost impossible to track all these "bedroom fanatic's". We have seen one of the world's biggest marathons attacked in broad daylight, over a thousand Muslims leave Europe to join ISIS in Syria, a British soldier beheaded in the street, a French Newspaper attacked by trained armed men etc and all in the last 2 years.
Again for me until we can get to grips with it I think these kind of events are just simply too dangerous and reckless, plus it's not like they haven't stepped in before to stop these kind of things that Florida pastor rings a bell.

Nobody "stepped in" and stopped the Florida pastor from burning copies of the Quran, he had a change of heart and decided not to proceed with it on his own.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

I think what we are seeing is unprecedented and security agencies from France, UK, US, Germany etc are saying that it is almost impossible to track all these "bedroom fanatic's". We have seen one of the world's biggest marathons attacked in broad daylight, over a thousand Muslims leave Europe to join ISIS in Syria, a British soldier beheaded in the street, a French Newspaper attacked by trained armed men etc and all in the last 2 years.
Again for me until we can get to grips with it I think these kind of events are just simply too dangerous and reckless, plus it's not like they haven't stepped in before to stop these kind of things that Florida pastor rings a bell.
The elephant in the room is our military interventions in the Middle East. We've never apologised for them properly or tried to make amends. Then idiots pile in with their childish expressions of freedom of speech against Islam and the whole thing becomes a powder keg.
 
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