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Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit [W:439, 529, 978, 1489]

Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

nota bene said:
That's the theory...but it looks to me as if in this case, this ugly event was, in fact, bait for terrorists.
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So according to you an abortion clinic is "bait" for those trying to assassinate doctors performing abortions?
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

WCH said:
I'm all for free speech but, don't agree with openly disparaging other people's religion.

This seems like someone was using this event as bait for terrorists.
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It's pretty clear that this event was intended to do one thing -- piss off Muslims. I'm familiar enough with Pam Geller's noxious brand of discourse to know that "free speech" is not her real priority. If she gave a dead dog's dick about the First Amendment, she wouldn't have been so vehemently opposed to the Park 51 mosque.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Cryptic said:
And those being shot at (in an avoidable confrontation) should read and heed Matthew 17:27 about the wisdom of avoiding needless offense.

In this case, the Moslems (or Hindus, Christiasns, Buddhists or communists) did not demand that spring break be banned, and then freak out. Rather, they were provoked needlessly. A democratic society needs free speech. At the same time, only fools give needless offense as it can turn into avoidable confrontations.
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Only brave people who are defending their values to the death.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

LowDown said:
I think the outcome of this event was quite satisfactory. We need to have more like this.
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I'm sure the security guard who was injured in the attack agrees.

It seems to me that there are certain elements of the right that want extremist Muslims to get violent, just to justify their hate. Your post reaffirms that.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

LeoVlaming said:
So according to you an abortion clinic is "bait" for those trying to assassinate doctors performing abortions?
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Please don't go here.

And take what I post at face value. This provocative event has ended, we're discussing it, and whether it's right or wrong or good of fair, the fact is that this extremist group attracted terrorists.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

nota bene said:
Please don't go here.

And take what I post at face value. This provocative event has ended, we're discussing it, and whether it's right or wrong or good of fair, the fact is that this extremist group attracted terrorists.
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Very weak.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

youngturk said:
Only brave people who are defending their values to the death.
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There is nothing "brave" about intentionally pissing people off under the guise of "free speech."
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Kobie said:
There is nothing "brave" about intentionally pissing people off under the guise of "free speech."
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True. Also true for most public meetings on most public controversial issues.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Kobie said:
It's pretty clear that this event was intended to do one thing -- piss off Muslims. I'm familiar enough with Pam Geller's noxious brand of discourse to know that "free speech" is not her real priority. If she gave a dead dog's dick about the First Amendment, she wouldn't have been so vehemently opposed to the Park 51 mosque.
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Frankly her event reminds me of the Satanic Statue story recently, or the various Athiest "christmas" displays you always end up hearing about.

Both sides like to CLAIM the primary intent is some kind of political message or some noble cause of "free speech". Both instances are basically full of ****. While I don't doubt it's part of the intent for both, the primary intent is simply to anger, piss off, mock, and thumb their nose at those they have an issue with...be it muslims or the religious in general or christians.

Much like I often view many of those instances as extremely chlidish and juvenile, I see this particular one similarly. However, just like those others, they absolutely should have the right to do it with an expectation that they won't have ILLEGAL consequences ventured upon them for it.

It is ENTIRELY unreasonable to expect to do an action like this and expect there to not be negative consequences.

HOWEVER....

While it's naive to think that illegal consequences can't happen, it's at least reasonable to assume that they shouldn't.

Like so many instances where illegal violence occured....creating such a situation does not "invite" or "cause" violence or suggests the person "had it coming", but it absolutely is an action that increases ones *RISK* of having violence perpetrated against them. Pointing that out isn't being an "apologist" or "victim blaming" but is simply dispassionately dealing with reality.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

LeoVlaming said:
The whole point about freedom of speech is that you don't have to agree with it.

And nothing or nobody is "bait for terrorists".
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I see it as the "Jesus in urine" depictions we've seen. The difference being no Christian will attack the art show with AKs and explosives.

And yes, by using such 'free speech' you do open the door for those who would use violence to make a point.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Zyphlin said:
Frankly her event reminds me of the Satanic Statue story recently, or the various Athiest "christmas" displays you always end up hearing about.

Both sides like to CLAIM the primary intent is some kind of political message or some noble cause of "free speech". Both instances are basically full of ****. While I don't doubt it's part of the intent for both, the primary intent is simply to anger, piss off, mock, and thumb their nose at those they have an issue with...be it muslims or the religious in general or christians.

Much like I often view many of those instances as extremely chlidish and juvenile, I see this particular one similarly. However, just like those others, they absolutely should have the right to do it with an expectation that they won't have ILLEGAL consequences ventured upon them for it.

It is ENTIRELY unreasonable to expect to do an action like this and expect there to not be negative consequences.

HOWEVER....

While it's naive to think that illegal consequences can't happen, it's at least reasonable to assume that they shouldn't.

Like so many instances where illegal violence occured....creating such a situation does not "invite" or "cause" violence or suggests the person "had it coming", but it absolutely is an action that increases ones *RISK* of having violence perpetrated against them. Pointing that out isn't being an "apologist" or "victim blaming" but is simply dispassionately dealing with reality.
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Agreed. Nobody should be in fear of speaking out, but it's naïve not to acknowledge that there is the possibility of risk.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Zyphlin said:
Frankly her event reminds me of the Satanic Statue story recently, or the various Athiest "christmas" displays you always end up hearing about.

Both sides like to CLAIM the primary intent is some kind of political message or some noble cause of "free speech". Both instances are basically full of ****. While I don't doubt it's part of the intent for both, the primary intent is simply to anger, piss off, mock, and thumb their nose at those they have an issue with...be it muslims or the religious in general or christians.

Much like I often view many of those instances as extremely chlidish and juvenile, I see this particular one similarly. However, just like those others, they absolutely should have the right to do it with an expectation that they won't have ILLEGAL consequences ventured upon them for it.

It is ENTIRELY unreasonable to expect to do an action like this and expect there to not be negative consequences.

HOWEVER....

While it's naive to think that illegal consequences can't happen, it's at least reasonable to assume that they shouldn't.

Like so many instances where illegal violence occured....creating such a situation does not "invite" or "cause" violence or suggests the person "had it coming", but it absolutely is an action that increases ones *RISK* of having violence perpetrated against them. Pointing that out isn't being an "apologist" or "victim blaming" but is simply dispassionately dealing with reality.
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Agreed.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

nota bene said:
Agreed. Nobody should be in fear of speaking out, but it's naïve not to acknowledge that there is the possibility of risk.
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It is very naive to think that we are not all at risk from jihadi terrorists.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

So, will the G wish to ban 7.62x39 ammo now?
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

cpwill said:
That's interesting. So you can't kill in others defense, eh?

:) I'll bet you a dollar you don't believe this.
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OK - I'd include defence of the innocent too.
I do believe the second point. It's a normal opinion. Look at it in terms of good manners, if you like.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

CRUE CAB said:
Define risk.
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I consider the possibility of being blown up on the bus or in the subway a risk. I consider the possibility of being gunned down in the street while some assassin is trying to kill some Jews a risk. I could go on, but you get the point.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Cryptic said:
And those being shot at (in an avoidable confrontation) should read and heed Matthew 17:27 about the wisdom of avoiding needless offense.
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You're right; they were provoked needlessly. Or as some would say, "given an occasion for sin," which is itself sinful.
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

LeoVlaming said:
I consider the possibility of being blown up on the bus or in the subway a risk. I consider the possibility of being gunned down in the street while some assassin is trying to kill some Jews a risk. I could go on, but you get the point.
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Any of those can happen at any time.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Anglo-scot said:
OK - I'd include defence of the innocent too.
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How about second and third order?

I do believe the second point. It's a normal opinion. Look at it in terms of good manners, if you like.
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What is your opinion of Same Sex Marriage?
 
Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Kobie said:
What.
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Supposedly two AK47s were used. That is the caliber they generally are fitted with.
Billions of those rounds are in circulation.
Millions if not billions of AKs are in circulation.
But they seem to be targeting the AR. Funny I find it.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Serenity said:
Not really Anglo because their views on those issues that Kobie mentioned (Islam's horrendous treatment of women, the preponderance of extremism and anti-Semitism among many Muslims, and this ridiculous idea that drawing a picture of a dude is literally the worst thing you can do) are simply beyond repulsive and deserve no respect whatsoever.

Take Pamela Geller for another example. She's the same as the WBC nutters. She isn't violent. She's a full blown, fair dinkum, right-wing extremist nutjob that should have the freedom to hold her "family day" gatherings without being attacked by extremists on the other side of the fence, but she certainly does not deserve any respect.
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You have to meet people where they are at. People can have all sorts of opinions which seem weird to us but are totally normal for someone from their background. We all know Islam is a heavy religion and rigid adherence is expected in many places. Many Muslims will be riven with internal conflicts, a bit like fundamentalist Christians. If we rule out dialogue because we can't stand their opinions, then we won't make much progress in resolving differences.
 
Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

Anglo-scot said:
You have to meet people where they are at. People can have all sorts of opinions which seem weird to us but are totally normal for someone from their background. We all know Islam is a heavy religion and rigid adherence is expected in many places. Many Muslims will be riven with internal conflicts, a bit like fundamentalist Christians. If we rule out dialogue because we can't stand their opinions, then we won't make much progress in resolving differences.
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So how much sharia law would you like to adopt?
 
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