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City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

They had probable cause to chase and detain.
Had a knife not been found he would have been released and walked away. But a knife believing to be a violation of the law was found and that constitutes the probable cause.

Wrong, absolutely 100% wrong. They had no probable cause. To have probable cause according to the US Supreme Court.. is to "where the facts and circumstances within the officers' knowledge, and of which they have reasonably trustworthy information, are sufficient in themselves to warrant a belief by a man of reasonable caution that a crime is being committed.”

They had no reasonably trustworthy information, i.e. they had no knowledge he was committing a crime.
 
Wrong, absolutely 100% wrong. They had no probable cause. To have probable cause according to the US Supreme Court.. is to "where the facts and circumstances within the officers' knowledge, and of which they have reasonably trustworthy information, are sufficient in themselves to warrant a belief by a man of reasonable caution that a crime is being committed.”

They had no reasonably trustworthy information, i.e. they had no knowledge he was committing a crime.
You are the one who is 100% wrong.

You are wrong and clearly do not know what you are talking about.
He had probable cause.

Not only that, you do not even understand what you read.

:doh :doh :doh

Syllabus

Petitioner was convicted in a federal district court for a violation of the Liquor Enforcement Act of 1936, on charges of transporting intoxicating liquor into Oklahoma contrary to the laws of that State. He challenged the validity of his conviction because of the use in evidence against him of liquor seized in a search of his automobile without a warrant and allegedly in violation of the Fourth Amendment. At the hearing on petitioner's motion to suppress this evidence, it appeared that one of the federal agents who made the search and seizure had arrested petitioner five months previously for illegally transporting liquor; that he had twice seen petitioner loading liquor into a car or truck in Missouri, where the sale of liquor was legal, and that he knew petitioner had a reputation for hauling liquor. This officer, accompanied by another, recognized petitioner and his car, which appeared to be heavily loaded, going west in Oklahoma not far from the Missouri line. They gave chase, overtook petitioner, and forced his car to the side of the road. Upon interrogation, petitioner admitted that he had twelve cases of liquor in his car, whereupon the officers searched the car, seized the liquor and arrested petitioner.

Held:

1. The facts taking place before petitioner made the incriminating statements were sufficient to show probable cause for the search, and the evidence seized was admissible against petitioner at the trial. Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132, followed. Pp. 165-171.

2. The officer's knowledge that petitioner was engaging in illicit liquor-running was not based wholly or largely on surmise or hearsay; the facts derived from his personal observation were sufficient in themselves, without the hearsay concerning general reputation, to sustain his conclusion concerning the illegal character of petitioner's operations. P. 172.

3. It was not improper to admit as evidence on the issue of probable cause the fact that the officer had arrested the petitioner several months before for illegal transportation of liquor, although the identical evidence was properly excluded at the trial on the issue of guilt. Pp. 172-174. [p161]

4. Probable cause exists where the facts and circumstances within the officers' knowledge, and of which they have reasonably trustworthy information, are sufficient in themselves to warrant a belief by a man of reasonable caution that a crime is being committed. Pp. 175-176.

165 F.2d 512, affirmed.

Petitioner was convicted in the federal district court for a violation of the Liquor Enforcement Act. The Court of Appeals affirmed. 165 F.2d 512. This Court granted certiorari. 333 U.S. 841. Affirmed, p. 178.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/338/160


His personal observations are within his knowledge. Duh!

He observed what appeared to be a drug deal where the suspects then ran.
That was probable cause to give chase, and detain.
Upon detainment they found no drugs but did find what was believed to be an illegal knife. That is probable cause for arrest.


Stop talking about things you know nothing about.
 
Cops do not put their lives on the line daily. That is complete nonsense. Do they sometimes? Certainly. Daily? No. That's nonsense that the police PR machine feeds the public to justify their bad behavior and special rules that allow cops to skate for things that would land anyone else in prison.

45K salary? Maybe to start. With OT NYPD patrol officers routinely make 6 figures. Lots of cops live in Nassau and Suffolk counties. Decent houses here start at a quarter million. You do the math. Cops, at least here, are well paid, and typically retire after 20 years regardless of age. That means a typical cop retires in his early forties and collections a good pension for the rest of his life.

My personal experience is that police do put their lives on the line. They are " the line " between law abiding citizens protecting them from the all too often heinous actions of an immoral society. I've heard the bagpipes played one too many times for those who lost their lives in the line of duty. Just read this morning that another cop was shot in NYC in the face by some punk who couldn't even run away because his baggie pants were down around his knees.

In every profession there are good and bad and the bad can cause great damage to others even death whether it be a doctor, lawyer, traffic air controller, judge, prosecuting attorney, police etc..

Here's a thought, why not let the justice system play out. How about letting all the facts without emotion be brought forth before making a judgment.
 
No. These cops broke the law and the rules set up to protect prisoners, so they are being charged with crimes.

It seems extremely improbable that 6 officers were equally responsible for not securing a seatbelt (even if that can be proven to be the cause of death). That seems like blaming the entire framing crew equally for one of them not securing a scaffold properly. Perhaps the prosecutor's plan (strategy?) is to get some of the charged officers to testify against at least one of the other officers.
 
.

45K salary? Maybe to start. With OT NYPD patrol officers routinely make 6 figures. Lots of cops live in Nassau and Suffolk counties. Decent houses here start at a quarter million. You do the math. Cops, at least here, are well paid, and typically retire after 20 years regardless of age. That means a typical cop retires in his early forties and collections a good pension for the rest of his life.

New York, and a few other big union cities in blue states are the exception, not the rule for police wages. And even these exceptions are going to change as runaway pensions are bankrupting these places.

That aside, police wages and benefits in most red state jurisdictions are far from New York level wages, even accounting for cost of living differences.
 
Regardless of anyone's race, the fact of so many citizens dying at the hands of the government should be enough cause for alarm.

I agree, but the riot has a very racial substratum....why is that?
 
That you think that matter means you are not making sense.

They had probable cause to chase and detain.

What was the probable cause?

Had a knife not been found he would have been released and walked away. But a knife believing to be a violation of the law was found and that constitutes the probable cause.

The police knew the knife was legal.





This is you not knowing what you are talking about and ignoring the fact that they did.

Seeing a suspected drug deal with the participants fleeing is probable cause to give chase and detain. During that detention the knife was found.
Had it not been found he would have been released.

Did they see him dealing drugs? If not...no probale cause.
 
My personal experience is that police do put their lives on the line. They are " the line " between law abiding citizens protecting them from the all too often heinous actions of an immoral society. I've heard the bagpipes played one too many times for those who lost their lives in the line of duty. Just read this morning that another cop was shot in NYC in the face by some punk who couldn't even run away because his baggie pants were down around his knees.

In every profession there are good and bad and the bad can cause great damage to others even death whether it be a doctor, lawyer, traffic air controller, judge, prosecuting attorney, police etc..

Here's a thought, why not let the justice system play out. How about letting all the facts without emotion be brought forth before making a judgment.

I'm absolutely willing to let the system do its thing. And I agree there are good and bad in every profession. But the image of cops as poorly paid servants doing a incredibly dangerous job is simply wrong. Statistically policing is not as dangerous as many other professions.
 
How often are police charged with that sort of thing? Criminal charges seems like over kill to me. Plus, we don't know why they arrested him yet. It seems that discipline would be the proper avenue if they didn't follow procedure with regard to his arrest. But the real issue here is why the guy is dead. That should be what is criminally investigated. When it seems that everyone agrees that most of these charges will be dropped, it seems like misconduct to bring them in the first place. Overzealous prosecutors aren't much better than overzealous officers.

I do understand your point regarding overzealous prosecutors, and that may well be the case here, but then it may not.

Most final events--his death--are the result of a chain of events. In this case, that chain's first link is the false arrest of Gray. He was arrested for what?
 
What was the probable cause?

The police knew the knife was legal.



Did they see him dealing drugs? If not...no probale cause.
Why are you playing at being obtuse?
The information was already provided.

They thought the knife was illegal (and it very well may be as already pointed out), giving them probable cause to arrest.

And yes they thought they saw a drug deal, so ye they had probable cause to give chase and detain.
 
I do understand your point regarding overzealous prosecutors, and that may well be the case here, but then it may not.

Most final events--his death--are the result of a chain of events. In this case, that chain's first link is the false arrest of Gray. He was arrested for what?

He was arrested for "being suspicious."
 
He was arrested for "being suspicious."
:naughty
No. The arrest document was already provided.

He was arrested becasue it was believed he was carrying a knife in violation of City Code.
 
:naughty
No. The arrest document was already provided.

He was arrested becasue it was believed he was carrying a knife in violation of City Code.

Which the DA says was NOT in violation of city code.

So, was the arrest improper?
 
Which the DA says was NOT in violation of city code.

So, was the arrest improper?
This is you not having read that which has come before.

She did not say that.

She went out of her way to say it did not violate Maryland Law, not City Code which it very well may violate.


Even if it was legal, the Officer believing it was illegal gave him probable cause to arrest.
 
A most dangerous act, carrying a knife while riding a bicycle. :doh
 
As Baltimore Protests And Riots, Black Violence Goes Completely Ignored – Downtrend

Unfortunately, as this narrative gains steam the REAL issues will be ignored. Neuter the Police Departments and watch neighborhoods and cities devolve down into 3rd world look alikes that will offer up a weekly double digit body count.

One things certain, there will be no protest or riots to call attention to it.

No one is neutering the Police- they have regs and laws that apply.
 
Which is really kinda interesting. BPD is roughly 50% black, the Chief is black, the Mayor is Black....the prosecutor is black, and Democrats have been running Baltimore since the 60s.....why haven't they "fixed" it?

I have no answer for that.
 
Why are you playing at being obtuse?
The information was already provided.

It has also been pointed out that they had no probable cause.

They thought the knife was illegal (and it very well may be as already pointed out), giving them probable cause to arrest.

So, you're saying the cops don't understand the laws they're meant to enforce?

And yes they thought they saw a drug deal, so ye they had probable cause to give chase and detain.

No, they didn't.
 
It has also been pointed out that they had no probable cause.

So, you're saying the cops don't understand the laws they're meant to enforce?

No, they didn't.
You are playing a ridiculous game and going in circles.
What was pointed out was that the claim was wrong and why it was wrong.
They had probable cause.
You still haven't refuted that.
 
Last edited:
From the beginning, I was suspicious of the inmate's claim that Gray injured himself. It's difficult to believe that somebody could severe their own spine.

I also never understood why the police arrested him either. Since when it is a crime to not make eye contact with the police?


It all needs to be proven in a court of law. But it turns out that the inmate who had claimed Gray was trying to hurt himself didn't say that either, he claims his statement has been taken out of context. Plus apparently it is obligatory protocol to seatbelt in a suspect in the van, which wasn't done at all. Had he been seatbelted in, none of this would have happened (at least if what we know is true in full).

It's about time that we start holding the police responsible for their actions and to exert some control against government force.
 
No one is neutering the Police- they have regs and laws that apply.

Wrong.

The Mayor's decision to give the rioters " room to destroy " is just that.

After Ferguson, and after this rush to prosecute and with the Lefts attention to playing up this narrative for purely Political purposes every inner city area is now one allegation away from unrest and rioting.

Cops see that they're being thrown under the Bus and its these neighborhoods that pay the price as violence, crime and a lack of iInvestment perpetuate poverty.

I don't think you people have any idea what you're doing.
 
Wrong.

The Mayor's decision to give the rioters " room to destroy " is just that.

After Ferguson, and after this rush to prosecute and with the Lefts attention to playing up this narrative for purely Political purposes every inner city area is now one allegation away from unrest and rioting.

Cops see that they're being thrown under the Bus and its these neighborhoods that pay the price as violence, crime and a lack of iInvestment perpetuate poverty.

I don't think you people have any idea what you're doing.

Mayor should have acted earlier- I agree.
Rush to judgment with the charges, perhaps?

How long does it normally take for a civilian to be charged?

Six Baltimore Police Officers Charged in Freddie Gray Death - WSJ


The prosecutor said Mr. Gray was fatally injured while riding in the back of the police van, rather than when he was initially subdued by police, addressing a mystery that has gripped the public for weeks. Cellphone video taken after the arrest appeared to show Mr. Gray screaming and dragging his legs before he was put in the van.

By the time the van reached the Western District police station about 45 minutes after his apprehension, she said, Mr. Gray wasn’t breathing and had gone into cardiac arrest. He fell into a coma and died on April 19. A family lawyer has said his spine was nearly severed at his neck.
 
You are playing a ridiculous game and going in circles.
What was pointed out was that the claim was wrong and why it was wrong.
They had probable cause.

Every aspect of the encounter has been investigated and it was determined that they did not.
 
Every aspect of the encounter has been investigated and it was determined that they did not.
That is your assumption.
What isn't an assumption is that a spring loaded knife was found. And a belief that the knife violated the cited City Code is probable cause for arrest.
What also isn't an assumption is that she said it didn't violate Maryland law while totally ignoring that it was a City Code that was Cited as being broken.


And again, I directed you to review the the presentation at Legal Insurrection. There was probable cause.
 
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