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Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

PCP does not give you superhuman strength

This whole conversation seems ridiculous to me. He's intentionally trying to injure himself based on what another guy said who was in the van for 5 minutes with Freddie? And that guy also said that he was "mostly quiet" and it's not possible to believe he was both making constant banging noises and was also mostly quiet so I will choose to believe nothing this man said. Also, he couldn't see Freddie, or at least all of the above is my understanding based on what I've read. I'm not going to make any conclusions based on this, I have stayed away from the conversation thus far and will wait until the investigation is complete.

He was mostly quiet, except when he was making those banging noises. There is also talk about him having previous spinal surgery due to an auto accident.
 
Absurd reply.
Not absurd, logical, based on your track record.

Come back to me when you leap to the defence of LEOs accused of contributing to the death of a white guy. Your concerns and prejudices are pretty transparent.
 
Not absurd, logical, based on your track record.

Come back to me when you leap to the defence of LEOs accused of contributing to the death of a white guy. Your concerns and prejudices are pretty transparent.

I'm not sure Excon is a racist as much as he's a classist and since there is a majority of non-whites in the impoverished class, it comes off as racism.
 
I'm not sure Excon is a racist as much as he's a classist and since there is a majority of non-whites in the impoverished class, it comes off as racism.
Well, you may be correct, but I don't think we've ever seen a murdered black man he didn't turn into gang-banging thug.
 
Not absurd, logical, based on your track record.

Come back to me when you leap to the defence of LEOs accused of contributing to the death of a white guy. Your concerns and prejudices are pretty transparent.
Wrong again.

It is so sad that you wish to make false assertions about a person, especially when you know they are not the topic of discussion.
 
A white guy was just shot by police this week in Virginia, but there will be no whites out rioting. I wonder why that is?
 
but I don't think we've ever seen a murdered black man he didn't turn into gang-banging thug.
Wrong again.

The underline appears to be your problem.
 
Excon,

I'm just going to let your own video (post #222) debunk your weak attempt at a reply to my commentary (your post #221).



Mr. Allen (prisoner #2) who was picked up and transported to the police station with Mr. Gray made it very clear that:

1) He heard very little during the ride from Mr. Gray except 4-seconds of "little banging", but that the ride to the police station was quiet otherwise. This clearly would contradict the position you apparently stand behind:

(Baltimore Police Commissioner) Batts said another man who was in the van during the tail end of Gray's ride told investigators that Gray was "was still moving around, that he was kicking and making noises" up until the van arrived at the station. Batts said the man also said the driver did not speed, make sudden stops of "drive erratically."

Investigators = homicide detectives? Maybe.

Which brings me to...

2) He gave a completely different story to homicide detectives than what he told local police.

I'd be curious to know why Mr. Allen would tell homicide detectives one thing but local police something different (if anything at all since per the interview he didn't tell the police "nothin'".)

Furthermore, per the video news clip you provided, the autopsy concluded that there was "no evidence that Mr. Gray hit his head against anything on his own". (This does support Mr. Allen's account of what he told the reporter per the video you provided.) Moreover, per the autopsy Mr. Gray's neck injury was "akin to a injury suffered in a car accident. It needed that amount of force".

Something happened in the police van between the time Mr. Gray was picked up but prior to Mr. Allen being picked up . The question is what?
 
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What's " hateful " about my language ? Be specific.

Because personally I think your just reverting to childish hyperbole because youre incabale of intelligently defending this twisted world view that you have.

Your only defense is to fall back on childish generalizations and buzzwords like " hate " in a attempt to shut down any opposition from those who disagree with you.

Its almost as irrelevent and innefective as constantly bringing up Bush.

They're waking up to the ravages of Liberal Progressive policies

This politicization of " Police brutality " so maybe the Democrats can sign up a few voters has gone on long enough.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

like Ignoring the fact that black communities are now one false allegation away from being destroyed from within because a bunch of idiots, leftist and Democrats ( distinction without a difference ) keep perpetuating the " Hands up dont shoot " Police brutality false narrative

Again, left wingers claim they represent the poor and disadvantaged, but in reality ignore the plight of people in the inner city continusly in favor for stupid false narratives and catch phrases that can fit on a bumper sticker.

Whos paying attention to the MUCH Larger issue of Black on black violence and growing poverty and dependance ? Not the Democrats and apparently not you

For a " thoughtful leftist " you sure are coming off as uncaring and cold hearted

The riots started because a false narrative of " Police brutality " has been reinforced exponentially by Politicians, activist and idiots looking to capitalize on the destruction and violence that now occurs on a whim.

All right wing rhetoric, hate & talking points. Now I,m sure you want to see what Hannity & the Fox sewer has going tonight. See you in an hour.

For some reason when I see stuff like this being childish works for me. Nothing personal
 
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Excon,

I'm just going to let your own video (post #222) debunk your weak attempt at a reply to my commentary (your post #221).
:doh
Wrong.
The only thing it changes is in what I said was thrashing, continuous or otherwise.
Everything else remains the same.
And it certainly does not debunk the substance as to why you were wrong.


Which brings me to...

2) He gave a completely different story to homicide detectives than what he told local police.

I'd be curious to know why Mr. Allen would tell homicide detectives one thing but local police something different (if anything at all since per the interview he didn't tell the police "nothin'".)
And why would that be?
They were afraid to release his information because of the current hostilities in the area.
You do not think that concern continues and obfuscation is in order for his safety?

What matters at this point is the substance of his statements in the hands of the Prosecutor making the decisions.
Not what he tells a reporter, especially if it is for his own safety.


Furthermore, per the video news clip you provided, the autopsy concluded that there was "no evidence that Mr. Gray hit his head against anything on his own".
And? That doesn't mean he isn't responsible for his own injuries.
But let me ask, given the known conditions, just what do you think could exist to show that?
That's right, it's absence is irrelevant.


I'd be curious to know why Mr. Allen would tell homicide detectives one thing but local police something different (if anything at all since per the interview he didn't tell the police "nothin'".)
His making an irrelevant distinction between Police and homicide was funny. Nevertheless that distinction is meaningless as they are the same police force.
He was interviewed immediately by homicide detectives. So that would have been the information collected and available for the Commissioner to speak about.
And if he said anything to the other Officers, it too would have been available to the Commissioner.


Moreover, per the autopsy Mr. Gray's neck injury was "akin to a injury suffered in a car accident. It needed that amount of force".
:doh
The same force which can happen in a slip and fall.
For all we know he also could have waited for the upcoming stop and rammed his head at that same time.


Something happened in the police van between the time Mr. Gray was picked up but prior to Mr. Allen being picked up . The question is what?
No. The evidence already dispels that.
He was active "up until" the last stop.
 
I am very very Skeptical of this new meme. Having said that, I just recently watched a video of a guy being put into the back of a squad car who didn't know he was being taped. He slammed his head in the top of the squad car several times opening a heavily bleeding gash in his forehead -- and I'm going to assume breaking his nose.

If the guy was determined to do damage, running head down into one of the walls a few times could do some serious damage...
I've seen that before, too, but the notion that someone could do this much damage is pretty far out there.
 
I am very very Skeptical of this new meme. Having said that, I just recently watched a video of a guy being put into the back of a squad car who didn't know he was being taped. He slammed his head in the top of the squad car several times opening a heavily bleeding gash in his forehead -- and I'm going to assume breaking his nose.

If the guy was determined to do damage, running head down into one of the walls a few times could do some serious damage...

I don't think so. I suffered from cluster headaches since before anyone knew what a cluster headache was. It feels like if you could just put a hole or crack in your skull all the pain would seep out. So in desperation more than once I went out the the garage, sat on the ground and threw myself as hard as I could backwards into the concrete floor. I may have caused a few hairline cracks, but my neck and any real damage didn't happen. Of course someone can break there own nose, that's easy, one can bang one's own head and create bloody mess, but based on my own experience, I seriously doubt anyone can break there own neck without the benefit of a mechanical assist like a noose or something along those lines. When you're slamming your own head, your neck muscles protect your spine because they are being used and therefore taut. Sorry, it just isn't at all likely.
 
They're waking up to the ravages of Liberal Progressive policies.

Nothing hateful about that. It's the truth. Let's see, St Louis, Baltimore, Detroit, Atlanta, Chicago and Obama's and Eric Holders response to the Ferguson riots that were based on a LIE says it all. A list to LEO's on how not to be a " racist " and then back to ignoring the real issues that affect the inner city. THAT'S hateful.


This politicization of " Police brutality " so maybe the Democrats can sign up a few voters has gone on long enough.

Not " hate ", just the truth...
Democrats Use Michael Brown's Death To Turn Out The Vote | The Daily Caller

You have no idea what you're talking about..

Again nothing hateful about the truth.

like Ignoring the fact that black communities are now one false allegation away from being destroyed from within because a bunch of idiots, leftist and Democrats ( distinction without a difference ) keep perpetuating the " Hands up dont shoot " Police brutality false narrative

Exactly. If your'e focused on narratives and think that Police brutality is the issue after watching what happened in Ferguson or Baltimore then your priorities are a bit mixed up. Hateful is thinking that ending Police brutality ( whether it exist or not ) is going to fix whats wrong with inner cites.

Again, left wingers claim they represent the poor and disadvantaged, but in reality ignore the plight of people in the inner city continusly in favor for stupid false narratives and catch phrases that can fit on a bumper sticker.

" Hope and Change " has done what for the Black community ? They're disproportionately affected by the policies that have led to the worst " recovery " in our Nations History. Hateful is ignoring the fact unemployment is disproportionately higher for young Black males and most inner city areas like St Louis have been run by Democrats for years.

Whos paying attention to the MUCH Larger issue of Black on black violence and growing poverty and dependance ? Not the Democrats and apparently not you

So true and NOT hateful. " Black lives matter " only when they lose their lives at the hand of a police officer or there's a accusation of " murder by cop ". Massive protest, the President speaking up on the issue, Al Sharpton and riots for a black man who died in Police custody.

Ignore the link as you claim my words are " hateful "...

Chicago Homicide Rate

For a " thoughtful leftist " you sure are coming off as uncaring and cold hearted.

Ignoring the underlying issues in place of a assumption or narrative is cold. What happens when the New trucks and the rioters and protesters clear out of Baltimore ? I sincerely believe there are hard working law abiding people that live there that now have to drive through a neighborhood that's littered with burned out buildings and vandalized cars. As far as the poverty and crime and violence that existed before the riot ? What happens when the rioters and Police go home ?

The riots started because a false narrative of " Police brutality " has been reinforced exponentially by Politicians, activist and idiots looking to capitalize on the destruction and violence that now occurs on a whim.

Absolutely ! That's not " hateful, that's the truth. If you don't like being confronted with the truth, if you think a difference in opinion is " hateful " then what are you doing here ? Ferguson was based on a LIE and we don't have any concert answers to what happened in Baltimore yet. " Hands up don't shoot ", " Black lives matter " the continued insistence by some Politicians and Activist that the Law enforcement community is purposely violently targeting blacks has definitely fanned the flames that led to Baltimore.


All right wing rhetoric, hate & talking points. Now I,m sure you want to see what Hannity & the Fox sewer has going tonight. See you in an hour.

For some reason when I see stuff like this being childish works for me. Nothing personal

All the truth, all very well explained and poorly rebutted by you. Calling my post hateful is a bit lazy as a rebuttal.
 
I don't think so. I suffered from cluster headaches since before anyone knew what a cluster headache was. It feels like if you could just put a hole or crack in your skull all the pain would seep out. So in desperation more than once I went out the the garage, sat on the ground and threw myself as hard as I could backwards into the concrete floor. I may have caused a few hairline cracks, but my neck and any real damage didn't happen. Of course someone can break there own nose, that's easy, one can bang one's own head and create bloody mess, but based on my own experience, I seriously doubt anyone can break there own neck without the benefit of a mechanical assist like a noose or something along those lines. When you're slamming your own head, your neck muscles protect your spine because they are being used and therefore taut. Sorry, it just isn't at all likely.

Summer, there are cases all the time of freak accidents that occur where people injure and kill themselves. I was watching a forensic files case where they were investigating how a man had died. They discovered that he had sliped on the tile floor, hit his head on a broom handle which caused a fracture and an open head would. Which he passed out from and eventually blead to death from while he was passed out. Things happen. It seems that this could be one of many things. Freak accident, maybe he was moving around in the van and he slipped or fell while the van was moving and hit his head. Or its possible he was trying to injure himself in order to stay in the hospital rather then stay in the jail until his trial. Its also possible that something may have occurred that we don't know about yet because we don't have all the evidence and there was some type of police brutality. Right now, we really don't know. But don't let that stop people from burning business, killing cops, destroying and stealing property and harassing innocent civilians.
 
Summer, there are cases all the time of freak accidents that occur where people injure and kill themselves. I was watching a forensic files case where they were investigating how a man had died. They discovered that he had sliped on the tile floor, hit his head on a broom handle which caused a fracture and an open head would. Which he passed out from and eventually blead to death from while he was passed out. Things happen. It seems that this could be one of many things. Freak accident, maybe he was moving around in the van and he slipped or fell while the van was moving and hit his head. Or its possible he was trying to injure himself in order to stay in the hospital rather then stay in the jail until his trial. Its also possible that something may have occurred that we don't know about yet because we don't have all the evidence and there was some type of police brutality. Right now, we really don't know. But don't let that stop people from burning business, killing cops, destroying and stealing property and harassing innocent civilians.

Whatever bs you have to tell yourself to cling to your ignorance about the police and how they treat the poor.
 
Quote Originally Posted by kjwins View Post
They're waking up to the ravages of Liberal Progressive policies.
Nothing hateful about that. It's the truth. Let's see, St Louis, Baltimore, Detroit, Atlanta, Chicago and Obama's and Eric Holders response to the Ferguson riots that were based on a LIE says it all. A list to LEO's on how not to be a " racist " and then back to ignoring the real issues that affect the inner city. THAT'S hateful.


I will do these one at a time.

When did I ever say Obama and Eric Holder were Progressive. I gave you an article on how the protesters in Ferguson feel about black leadership. Did you read it? What the hell makes you think Rep's will do anything to help people in the inner city. Your being disingenuous, & could care less about poor & inner city people. You just want to spew Right Wing crap about how this would not have happened if a Rep was in charge. I said it didn't matter who was in charge. They are pretty much the same.

Your just saying look how bad one side is, my side is better. Truth is, its not. this is total Right Wing rhetoric, & reeks of Fox News.

Its late will get to the rest tomorrow.
 
OK one more, & its bed time.

Quote Originally Posted by kjwins View Post
This politicization of " Police brutality " so maybe the Democrats can sign up a few voters has gone on long enough.
Not " hate ", just the truth...
Democrats Use Michael Brown's Death To Turn Out The Vote | The Daily Caller

Like Rep's would not do the same to get votes. In fact they do, please tell me they don't try to appeal to there base of Christians, Whites, Gun Nuts, Red Necks, & rich people. Like I said there is not much difference between the parties. Your making an assumption that all black people are stupid, & that they don't know Obama is a fake liberal. When many people, black & white know that voting is putting energy back into a dead system.

This is rhetoric, hate, & racist. If you meant it that way or not.
 
OK I am on a roll here & this one is easy

Quote Originally Posted by kjwins View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about..
Again nothing hateful about the truth.

Basically, you're saying I'm stupid because I don't agree with you. When I probably know more about what is going on than you. Because you can not see outside your right wing box, & think this is about black people crying about the police. Have you watched or listen to anyone who lives in Baltimore.

Total hate & a poor try at being a smart ass in your reply.

Please let me know if you want me to continue.
 
Quote Originally Posted by kjwins View Post
They're waking up to the ravages of Liberal Progressive policies.
Nothing hateful about that. It's the truth. Let's see, St Louis, Baltimore, Detroit, Atlanta, Chicago and Obama's and Eric Holders response to the Ferguson riots that were based on a LIE says it all. A list to LEO's on how not to be a " racist " and then back to ignoring the real issues that affect the inner city. THAT'S hateful.


I will do these one at a time.

When did I ever say Obama and Eric Holder were Progressive. I gave you an article on how the protesters in Ferguson feel about black leadership. Did you read it? What the hell makes you think Rep's will do anything to help people in the inner city. Your being disingenuous, & could care less about poor & inner city people. You just want to spew Right Wing crap about how this would not have happened if a Rep was in charge. I said it didn't matter who was in charge. They are pretty much the same.

Your just saying look how bad one side is, my side is better. Truth is, its not. this is total Right Wing rhetoric, & reeks of Fox News.

Its late will get to the rest tomorrow.

It would be much easier to understand your posts if you used the Reply With Quote function.
 
Summer, there are cases all the time of freak accidents that occur where people injure and kill themselves. I was watching a forensic files case where they were investigating how a man had died. They discovered that he had sliped on the tile floor, hit his head on a broom handle which caused a fracture and an open head would. Which he passed out from and eventually blead to death from while he was passed out. Things happen. It seems that this could be one of many things. Freak accident, maybe he was moving around in the van and he slipped or fell while the van was moving and hit his head. Or its possible he was trying to injure himself in order to stay in the hospital rather then stay in the jail until his trial. Its also possible that something may have occurred that we don't know about yet because we don't have all the evidence and there was some type of police brutality. Right now, we really don't know. But don't let that stop people from burning business, killing cops, destroying and stealing property and harassing innocent civilians.

I've come to the conclusion (albeit that it may be the wrong one) that this guy was injured before he went into the van. That the banging etc the prisoner heard was him being thrashed about in handcuffs and unable to get on his feet. Probably one of those rough rides cops talk about -- and that they should be fired for. Injured who knows for sure how -- and instead of being placed in a neck brace and transported on a backboard -- given the ride of his life and no medical treatment until it was too late.

I hope our legal system begins treating cops present at wrong-doing the same as they do the guy who drives the get-away car when his bank-robbing friends kill a guard. Complicit and just as guilty as the guy holding the gun.
 
Quote Originally Posted by kjwins View Post
like Ignoring the fact that black communities are now one false allegation away from being destroyed from within because a bunch of idiots, leftist and Democrats ( distinction without a difference ) keep perpetuating the " Hands up dont shoot " Police brutality false narrative

Black communities are being destroyed, & it has nothing to do with " Hands up dont shoot " Police brutality is not a false narrative & how would you know anyway. Do you live there, are you black, have you gone into the heart of the matter. They are ignored by both parties, being forced out of their homes, so their land can be bought for pennies on the dollar. Police use their neighborhood like an ATM, & act like an occupying force.

Exactly. If your'e focused on narratives and think that Police brutality is the issue after watching what happened in Ferguson or Baltimore then your priorities are a bit mixed up. Hateful is thinking that ending Police brutality ( whether it exist or not ) is going to fix whats wrong with inner cites.

Right Wing rhetoric double speak that ignores facts & what is really going on.
MLK: A riot is the language of the unheard

Shall I continue.
 
I've come to the conclusion (albeit that it may be the wrong one) that this guy was injured before he went into the van. That the banging etc the prisoner heard was him being thrashed about in handcuffs and unable to get on his feet. Probably one of those rough rides cops talk about -- and that they should be fired for. Injured who knows for sure how -- and instead of being placed in a neck brace and transported on a backboard -- given the ride of his life and no medical treatment until it was too late.

I hope our legal system begins treating cops present at wrong-doing the same as they do the guy who drives the get-away car when his bank-robbing friends kill a guard. Complicit and just as guilty as the guy holding the gun.

Morning Maggie :2wave:

How did you come to these "conclusions"? As far as I know, we haven't seen the autopsy, or the any of the police investigation, so the only way anyone can come to any conclusion is through their own speculation about what they think happened....Remember Ferguson? The instant 'conclusion' was that Wilson shot Brown when his hands were in the air...Which led to the totally false "hands up, don't shoot'' meme, that was proven false....

If Freddie Grey's injuries were caused by police in the apprehension after his running, and resisting arrest, then yes the evidence will show that, and they are accountable, but if they happened in the van on the way to jail, then we must look at the transport driver, as he is the only one responsible for the custody of Grey at that point...

Criminalizing policing only serves to ensure that police will not do their jobs. Do we have "bad cops" in the system? Yes, and they should be weeded out, but to use such blanket accusation in demonizing police in general I don't think is correct. We need police doing their jobs in our communities, the alternative we saw last Monday night. Those weren't images that I think make most people feel safe.

BTW, Now that leaks from the report turned over yesterday to the States atty, seem to say that Grey died from head injuries sustained in the back of the van, and NOT from the arrest, and that is consistent with the report from the other prisoner being transported, that Grey sounded like he was trying to injure himself....I personally don't know, but I haven't made any conclusions yet either.
 
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