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Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

Just dropping in, and maybe reading out of context, but someone's neck can be snapped if one can stand next to or behind someone. Just ask Special Forces.

I am talking about him being alone in the van. Could he have gained enough momentum to brake his own neck?
 
..with all due respect, you are Canadian. Your experiences here to not fully translate to the U.S. Although there are not a ton of cultural differences between the US and Canada, there are some, particularly in matters relating to respect for authority (hell, you stand on a street corner in Canada late a night with no car in sight and people wait for the "Walk" sign). That respect generally works both ways in Canada. The Canadian police also respect back. They don't take themselves seriously (are they buying military surplus to outfit themselves as domestic army?). There are no where near the number of allegations of police brutality in Canada as there are in the US. Moreover, Canada has no obvious inner-city economic blight, very minor economic fragmentation and less racial tension overall.

Sorry Canada, but your anecdotes don't translate here. Comment on things you are qualified to comment on. This is not one of them.
As arrogant a reply as it is wrong.
They most certainly do translate, and their lack of a significant population of disgruntled minorities who want to blame everyone but themselves matters as well.
 
I am talking about him being alone in the van. Could he have gained enough momentum to brake his own neck?

Definitely. If he slammed his back or neck against those hard steel bench corners he could easily break his spine, especially if he already had a slipped disk or other spinal injury from wrecking his bike.

But essentially if he fell any distance he would have focused his full weight into a very narrow area --the edge of the bench -- which, if it happened to impact the connective cartilage between two vertebrae, would have separated his spine as easily as a knife driven into the same spot.
 
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The man died, how is risk to life an exaggeration when it has a non-zero probability of happening?
Are you serious?
Nothing has been shown to even say the lack of a seat-belt even contributed to his death.
Do you really not understand that?


We don't know if it matters yet or not. But it does show that the police haven't been completely honest with their initial reports. That's, at best, mildly concerning.
No, we can almost be certain that it doesn't matter, had it mattered they likely would have said so.
And no, there is o claim of dishonest that can be made here. That is nothing more than more assumption from you.


He died, obviously not restraining him risks life.
:doh
Wow! What an extremely wrong and absurd argument.
There exist no known correlation between the two.
You have no idea if it contributed or not. So stop making foolish arguments.


He was either thrown around
Oh Gawd.
Most folks know to stop making arguments that directly contradict the known evidence.

the man also said the driver did not speed, make sudden stops of "drive erratically."


or thrashing around the van, had he been seatbelted in, that could not have happened.
Wrong.
A person can still thrash around while seatbelted.


And that must be demonstrated. To risk injury (how's that, you like that one more) to the restrained and chained suspect needs justification that will need to be demonstrated. I'm sure the investigation looks at that too.
And again. It is a valid reason.


It's all functionally equivalent. He was kicking and making noise, Jesus.
Jesus! :doh Just stop with the dishonesty.
It is not the functional equivalent.
One is factual the other is an exaggeration.


You've taken it out of context to make that claim,
Wrong. It was not out of context. Which is apparent by you continuing to say it is true when it is not . It is an assumption that you can not even back up.

of which nothing there exonerated the police.

Try to be a little honest, can ya?
This is your dishonesty, as the two are not the same.
Again, one is an assumption and the other is an observation.

Do you really not understand the difference?
 
Definitely. If he slammed his back or neck against those hard steel bench corners he could easily break his spine, especially if he already had a slipped disk or other spinal injury from wrecking his bike.

We will hopefully find out once the autopsy report is released.
 
.25 cent coffee...Guess I'm showing my age.

Though I have posted on incidents involving police more often than not condemning their actions, I've always tried to be as reasonable as I can and I don't always fault the police. When I do, I think the condemnation is justified and I'm willing to defend my points in any post that you feel that I unreasonably judged an officer. Ferguson is the best example I can think of of a case where I didn't condemn the officer (where those that are totally biased do), though I suspect before I said something you would have thought I did. Given the evidence I've read I think the shooting there was justified and I've always said that it's a shame that so many people have given so much for a person (Mike Brown) that may not deserve it. In this case involving Mr. Gray, I have yet to pass final judgement pending the release of the investigations. In the case of the shooting of Walter Scott, I was very condemning of the officer that shot him because I felt I knew enough to make that decision, but I will be the first to recant publicly (here on DP) if new information comes to light that exonerates the officer.

I have said it several times in other threads, I went to college to be a cop, I have family and friends that are cops and most don't like what they see either, and they are all trapped in a culture of self protection. They can't speak up about the "bad apples" as it would risk their own jobs and careers and they all support body cameras. I believe they (my friends and family who are cops) are good cops, but just like anyone else good people do bad things, however when you are given the responsibility to uphold the public trust you have an obligation to be better than the average person. Violation of the public trust, especially when it involves killing or seriously injuring a person who's offense did not put the general public or the officer in danger, should be a punishable offence.

As I said, in this case, while I'm extremely skeptical that Mr. Gray harmed himself, given that he was in a van, out of sight, there is no video until he is cuffed, I have reserved judgement and challenge you to find a post I have written that says otherwise.

We may actually be similar in views and I thank you for your response.

I too am generally supportive of police in their interactions with those who most often turn out to be criminals but I have offered the opinion on other threads that I believe the officer in the Walter Scott case should and will be convicted of murder. His actions, subsequent to the shooting, lead me to believe he knew what he was doing was wrong and he tried to cover up his criminal actions. I believe police who act criminally should be dealt with harshly, considering the office they hold and the power they are granted.

I also believe that far too often the police are wrongly accused of criminal activity in cases where a person of colour is injured or dies. It is a reflexive response that is driven by agendas that are not related to the actual incidents. Ferguson is a prime example.

It may end up that charges will be laid in this Baltimore case. I certainly hope if they are, it's not because of politics, as it was in the Zimmerman case. Falsely prosecuting a person for a crime that wasn't committed only serves to increase tensions when a jury rightly finds the person charged innocent.
 
We will hopefully find out once the autopsy report is released.

Yeah, hopefully. But just to reiterate my point on why this is possible: the reason a knife cuts is because it focuses your applied pressure into a very narrow area. Momentum doesn't really matter as it doesn't take much if the impact area is small enough. The pounds of force per-square-inch are all that really matters. The sharper the knife the narrower the contact area of the edge, and the higher the effective PSI. Needles punch holes because they have a tiny contact area that is a PSI multiplier.

So if a person falls on a hard steel corner of a bench with a contact area of, say, 2 inches (long narrow rectangle) then they apply their force/2 in pressure to the impact area. This is also why bathrooms are so deadly. A slip in the shower can cause serious damage if you come in contact with the corner of a sink even though you aren't falling very fast.
 
When no officer is charged, and none will be, Baltimore might look like Darfur. The Orioles will have to move to Salt Lake City.
 
Well no, OJ Simpson isn't a nice guy, but you should know the reason he walked.

I was being sarcastic in my comment to Summerwind. But, as someone who watched daily the delivery of evidence in the trial and the poor job done by the prosecution and the judge, I had predicted OJ would be found not guilty. It wasn't because of jury nullification - although many would like to believe that was the case in order to make them feel better about the justice system. In my view, it was because the case was not made beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
I do not believe it is possible to break your own neck by slamming your head against a wall nor collapsing your own throat when handcuffed.

It is indeed possible, though I doubt that's the extent he was going for. Especially considering he'd had recent back surgery.
 
..with all due respect, you are Canadian. Your experiences here to not fully translate to the U.S. Although there are not a ton of cultural differences between the US and Canada, there are some, particularly in matters relating to respect for authority (hell, you stand on a street corner in Canada late a night with no car in sight and people wait for the "Walk" sign). That respect generally works both ways in Canada. The Canadian police also respect back. They don't take themselves seriously (are they buying military surplus to outfit themselves as domestic army?). There are no where near the number of allegations of police brutality in Canada as there are in the US. Moreover, Canada has no obvious inner-city economic blight, very minor economic fragmentation and less racial tension overall.

Sorry Canada, but your anecdotes don't translate here. Comment on things you are qualified to comment on. This is not one of them.

Aside from the fact you seem to know little about Canada, I'll simply respond by saying you make my case for me. Pretty simply - you say respect works in Canada - people respect authority here and in return police respect citizens. It may be a chicken/egg issue, but I've traveled to the US and had interactions with police there - not many, granted - but my attitude is always respectful and I get nothing but respect back.

If respect for others is cultural and it doesn't apply to the US, then you have a whole lot more problems on your hands than this Baltimore incident showcases.

And with respect, I'll acknowledge your advice and respectfully continue to govern myself as I always have.
 
Really, the culpable cops don't know what happened. The baltimore police chief has acknowledged in the past that his officers have violated department conduct rules. And, just since 2011, the department has paid out 5.7 million due to lost law suits. Think credibility ok.

That's why you bring in the Maryland State Police to investigate and later the FBI as well.
 
Hahahaha hahahaha, the baltimore police chief is lying. Ok, well either way, seems to me the baltimore police department has a credibility problem, but then the Sun has only been DOCUMENTING THAT FOR YEARS.

So there is proof and the Baltimore Sun has documented all of this inept Democrat leadership. Now, that's rich.
 
We haven't heard much from any experts, but I would like to know if it is even possible to gain enough momentum to break a person's neck in such a confined area.
I venture to say it is not.

If that is what truly happened, he may have been trying to get bruises on his back and neck, but it may have backfired on him. It only takes 8 pounds of pressure to break a bone. If he was high on PCP or some other drug, then he would have been much stronger than a normal man and have been able to do more damage.
 
Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

BALTIMORE — A prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray “banging against the walls” of the vehicle and believed that he “was intentionally trying to injure himself,” according to a police document obtained by The Washington Post.

[...]
Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was



Maybe folks were to quick to blame police.

I haven't read all 19 pages but I am sure someone has brought up the fact that prisoners are not the most trustworthy people. This guy could be lying for a lenient sentence. So he has a lot of motivation to lie in favor of the police.
 
I am sure someone has brought up the fact that prisoners are not the most trustworthy people.
That is myth.
They are no more or less liars than those in the general public.



This guy could be lying for a lenient sentence. So he has a lot of motivation to lie in favor of the police.
There is nothing to suggest that is the case.

His statement was known from the beginning and was obtained through investigation.
 
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I haven't read all 19 pages but I am sure someone has brought up the fact that prisoners are not the most trustworthy people. This guy could be lying for a lenient sentence. So he has a lot of motivation to lie in favor of the police.

Oh, but they are. Mother Theresa is more shady.

ETA: See?
 
If that is what truly happened, he may have been trying to get bruises on his back and neck, but it may have backfired on him. It only takes 8 pounds of pressure to break a bone. If he was high on PCP or some other drug, then he would have been much stronger than a normal man and have been able to do more damage.

PCP does not give you superhuman strength

This whole conversation seems ridiculous to me. He's intentionally trying to injure himself based on what another guy said who was in the van for 5 minutes with Freddie? And that guy also said that he was "mostly quiet" and it's not possible to believe he was both making constant banging noises and was also mostly quiet so I will choose to believe nothing this man said. Also, he couldn't see Freddie, or at least all of the above is my understanding based on what I've read. I'm not going to make any conclusions based on this, I have stayed away from the conversation thus far and will wait until the investigation is complete.
 
And that guy also said that he was "mostly quiet"
I have heard that claim, but you might want to link to a reliable source for that, as the information in this thread was known from the beginning, was obtained through investigation and confirmed through leaked affidavit.
He didn't go quite until they reached their destination.


Apparently the only reporter to hear such was Jayne Miller.
That may be an indication that she misheard.
 
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I'm afraid that is what happens when the political left is absent and the political elites then only serve the aspirations of a smaller and smaller clique of the overpriveleged.

Madame La Guillotine is not on your horizon yet but she may well be soon :(

Sounds like you have read Death of the Liberal Class. Great Book. That's what most of the clowns in here don't see. There is no political left anymore. Just Right Wing hate propaganda.
 
Show me a major city in America with a long history of Republican leadership.

The problem with these cities is that they are not attractive to business start ups either through uneducated workforce, taxes, or the chance that your business will get burnt down when the ignorant population gets mad at the city government.

Baltimore has very serious issues that have nothing to do with the police force that just got worse with these riots. Do you think businesses will flood back in to these communities? Think again. The cost of insurance just went up and the dumb ass Democrats in charge of the city are ALREADY floating the idea of raising taxes as a solution.

They're doomed.

But the question still stands. So you got something or what. If you think Rep's are the answer to all our problems. We are doomed.
 
Sounds like you have read Death of the Liberal Class. Great Book. That's what most of the clowns in here don't see. There is no political left anymore. Just Right Wing hate propaganda.

Well of course there is a political left but its just not represented in the US. I often feel like I'm watching a slow motion implosion over there with your ever increasing levels of destitution. Its a model that cannot run forever like this without major consequences eventually
 
Well of course there is a political left but its just not represented in the US. I often feel like I'm watching a slow motion implosion over there with your ever increasing levels of destitution. Its a model that cannot run forever like this without major consequences eventually

We are an Empire in Decline. One of the signs is hero Worship of Police & Military. You can see that all over this thread. Your right somethings got to give, more than likely an economic collapse.

Funny how people all over the world see it. Most of America is in a propaganda coma, but people are starting to wake up.
 
Are you serious?
Nothing has been shown to even say the lack of a seat-belt even contributed to his death.
Do you really not understand that?

Do you not understand that if he were belted in he could not have been thrown about the van, intentionally or otherwise? We bring up the other prisoner as having said it seemed like Gray was trying to hurt himself. Had be been properly restrained, he could not have done that.

If he was injured in the van, and not in the arrest beforehand, being properly restrained would have likely prevented this death; particularly if it is true that Gray himself had been trying to hurt himself by thrashing around in the van.

But whatever. They'll investigate and either we'll find out the police were in the wrong or not. We'll have to see. But you don't seem interested in honest debate, so I guess we'll leave it at that.
 
But the question still stands. So you got something or what. If you think Rep's are the answer to all our problems. We are doomed.

I never said that Republicans are the answer to all of our problems. I think the answer is to stop looking to politicians for the answers.
 
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