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Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent [W:437]

Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Wait, you mean all the frothing, and foaming over "global warming" was based on manipulated, or incomplete data, and flawed models? I......AM.......SHOCKED!!!!!! :cool:

Of course! That's why the arctic ice cap is melting to the point that beginning in 2013, ships could start sailing through there for the first time in human history.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Of course! That's why the arctic ice cap is melting to the point that beginning in 2013, ships could start sailing through there for the first time in human history.

Thats good then and so what ? Our satellite records of polar ice only go back to 1979. Last year Antarctica set a record for maximum coverage but unsurprisingly nobody wants to talk about that. Terms like maximum and minimum are both quite meaningless here given the very short duration of our records.

Antarctic Sea Ice Reaches New Record Maximum | NASA



 
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Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

smh , the point is they predict TEMPERATURES. and their predicted TEMPERATURES are off by (well less than) 1% {even with your cherry picked reference point}.

They predicted temperature changes.

Their predictions were off by many factors. Not at all acurate to 1%.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

They predicted temperature changes.

Their predictions were off by many factors. Not at all acurate to 1%.

Show your math then , that temperature and temperature changes are not related.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

I didn't say it did. Please READ what I wrote.

It's quite clear you're in WAY over your head at this point.

You have shown that you are unable to do basic maths involved in understanding what x amount of heat energy added to the top 700m of ocean will do to temperature.

Since that is something that any reasonable school boy should be able to do at the age of 15 if he is at all a science type your attempt to paint yourself a sage is bogus.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

You have shown that you are unable to do basic maths involved in understanding what x amount of heat energy added to the top 700m of ocean will do to temperature.

Since that is something that any reasonable school boy should be able to do at the age of 15 if he is at all a science type your attempt to paint yourself a sage is bogus.


LMAO @ you claiming anything. I asked you for detailed specifics about your problem and you refused to give them.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Thanks for brining this up! This is certainly a very important study.
https://nicholas.duke.edu/news/global-warming-more-moderate-worst-case-models

Of particular note is this graph.
20150424_ar5fig1125a.png


The biggest takeaways are:
1). There are 180 different climate models listed here. All of them are getting warmer. And the global temperate has consistently fallen within the bounds of these models.
2). In the 1990's, global temperature tended toward the upper extremes of these models. In the 2010's it's been more toward the lower extremes. While the climate models failed to predict this, the duke study calculated a 70% likelihood of seeing these anomalies given a middle of the road warming scenario. But it is highly unlikely that we would have seen these same anomalies if either of the extreme ends of the models were correct.
3). And most importantly... The study showed that climate models by in large GET IT RIGHT.. but they tend to underestimate short term (decade long) climate variability.

In short, this study is a near airtight validation of human induced global warming with the most likely outcome being about a 1 deg c temperature rise by 2050.

(also.. while I applaud your enthusiasm, there's a reason scientists don't read about science in places like the Guardian. Lets just say that Journalists and Physicists don't take very many classes together. And from personal experience, having had various things covered by the press.... it's always been painful to read their descriptions of what we've done. 50% of the coverage tends to be a complete fabrication, the other 50% poorly understood and misstated.

Good to see you back Mithros.

At what point do you come to the conclusion that the upper half of the predictions are out?

Is another 5 years of not warming enough? Do you need 10 or 15 or what?
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Thats good then and so what ? Our satellite records of polar ice only go back to 1979. Last year Antarctica set a record for maximum coverage but unsurprisingly nobody wants to talk about that. Terms like maximum and minimum are both quite meaningless here given the very short duration of our records.

Antarctic Sea Ice Reaches New Record Maximum | NASA


Did you actually READ what your link said? 'Cause it looks like you only read the headline. From your reference:

Sea ice surrounding Antarctica reached a new record high extent this year, covering more of the southern oceans than it has since scientists began a long-term satellite record to map sea ice extent in the late 1970s. The upward trend in the Antarctic, however, is only about a third of the magnitude of the rapid loss of sea ice in the Arctic Ocean.

The new Antarctic sea ice record reflects the diversity and complexity of Earth’s environments, said NASA researchers. Claire Parkinson, a senior scientist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, has referred to changes in sea ice coverage as a microcosm of global climate change. Just as the temperatures in some regions of the planet are colder than average, even in our warming world, Antarctic sea ice has been increasing and bucking the overall trend of ice loss.

The planet as a whole is doing what was expected in terms of warming. Sea ice as a whole is decreasing as expected, but just like with global warming, not every location with sea ice will have a downward trend in ice extent,” Parkinson said.


But that's what I've seen with so many global warming deniers - they only see that which confirms what they've decided to believe. Any hard data that indicates otherwise...need not apply.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

A "clock" in the sense you use it, never really tells the correct time, and a broken one certainly doesn't have to twice a day.

Go on then, I'll bite.

How does a stopped clock not show the correct time twice a day? Assuming its a mechanical one with hour and minute hands.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Did you actually READ what your link said? 'Cause it looks like you only read the headline. From your reference:

Sea ice surrounding Antarctica reached a new record high extent this year, covering more of the southern oceans than it has since scientists began a long-term satellite record to map sea ice extent in the late 1970s. The upward trend in the Antarctic, however, is only about a third of the magnitude of the rapid loss of sea ice in the Arctic Ocean.

The new Antarctic sea ice record reflects the diversity and complexity of Earth’s environments, said NASA researchers. Claire Parkinson, a senior scientist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, has referred to changes in sea ice coverage as a microcosm of global climate change. Just as the temperatures in some regions of the planet are colder than average, even in our warming world, Antarctic sea ice has been increasing and bucking the overall trend of ice loss.

The planet as a whole is doing what was expected in terms of warming. Sea ice as a whole is decreasing as expected, but just like with global warming, not every location with sea ice will have a downward trend in ice extent,” Parkinson said.


But that's what I've seen with so many global warming deniers - they only see that which confirms what they've decided to believe. Any hard data that indicates otherwise...need not apply.

Like I said so what . Our satellite records only go back to 1979 (yes even NASA's) and are therefore of little consequence in the determination of anything. The ice core records show polar temperatures naturally wax and wane over the centuries with today being nothing special in great scheme of things

http://mclean.ch/climate/Ice_cores.htm
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Like I said so what . Our satellite records only go back to 1979 (yes even NASA's) and are therefore of little consequence in the determination of anything. The ice core records show polar temperatures naturally wax and wane over the centuries with today being nothing special in great scheme of things

Ice Cores

Satellite records only go back to 1979...but the efforts to traverse the Northwest Passage have been going on since the 1600's. That, sir, is why this is a big deal.

And when it comes to polar temperatures waxing and waning, the REASONS why they wax and wane are in every instance identifiable - great meteor strikes, supervolcano eruptions, and so forth...but today, we have no such identifiable cause...except for the gigatonnes of CO2 that we pump into the air every year. One can crap in one's crib for only so long before that crib becomes very stinky indeed.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Go on then, I'll bite.

How does a stopped clock not show the correct time twice a day? Assuming its a mechanical one with hour and minute hands.


where in the venn space of possible clocks do stopped clocks and broken clocks reside?
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Satellite records only go back to 1979...but the efforts to traverse the Northwest Passage have been going on since the 1600's. That, sir, is why this is a big deal.

No it isn't . The little ice age going on back then was doubtless the primary reason we couldn't. I don't doubt there have been many times before that when the channel would have been clear too

And when it comes to polar temperatures waxing and waning, the REASONS why they wax and wane are in every instance identifiable - great meteor strikes, supervolcano eruptions, and so forth...but today, we have no such identifiable cause...except for the gigatonnes of CO2 that we pump into the air every year. One can crap in one's crib for only so long before that crib becomes very stinky indeed.

Absolute nonsense. We know nothing of the sort
 
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Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Of course! That's why the arctic ice cap is melting to the point that beginning in 2013, ships could start sailing through there for the first time in human history.

Ok, tell me how a wealth redistribution scheme, ie; Carbon Credits will stop that....
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Of course! That's why the arctic ice cap is melting to the point that beginning in 2013, ships could start sailing through there for the first time in human history.

Like I've always said, thank goodness for a new balmy climate.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

No it isn't . The little ice age going on back then was doubtless the primary reason we couldn't. I don't doubt there have been many times before that when the channel would have been clear too

And why did we have the 'little ice age'?


Absolute nonsense. We know nothing of the sort

Perhaps reading a bit of history and doing some objective research would do you some good.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Ok, tell me how a wealth redistribution scheme, ie; Carbon Credits will stop that....

Look it up for yourself - do your OWN research.

And FYI, thinking for myself instead of automatically accepting what I was getting from Republican politicians and their kingmakers like Rush Limbaugh and the Religious Right was what started me down the path away from being a strong conservative to being the strong liberal I am today.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Good to see you back Mithros.

At what point do you come to the conclusion that the upper half of the predictions are out?

Is another 5 years of not warming enough? Do you need 10 or 15 or what?

I think the Duke study argues fairly convincingly that we should throw the upper bounds out now.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

And why did we have the 'little ice age'?

Natural variation just like so many of the warming/cooling phases. Many have alluded to the Maunder minumum but in reality we can only guess

Perhaps reading a bit of history and doing some objective research would do you some good.

It will be pretty obvious to any impartial observer based on our respective input that I know considerably more about this subject than you do
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Yes, probably too simple to be of much use.


Then why in the world would your approach be to fit a straight line equation with some random variation "overlayed on top"?


I see, so your idea of statistically significant is not whether or not the model predicts the actual data, but whether or not there is any sort of positive correlation between temperature and year. Um, lol?

Um.... this is how stochastic processes work and are modelled.

Statistically significant is a scientific term with an actual meaning. Basically, you form a statistical model of the process and then determine the probability that the differences you see between your model and the measured values can be explained with the given noise.
p-value - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Um.... this is how stochastic processes work and are modelled.

Statistically significant is a scientific term with an actual meaning. Basically, you form a statistical model of the process and then determine the probability that the differences you see between your model and the measured values can be explained with the given noise.
p-value - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Climate models are essentially mathematical constructs though. Given we cannot ascribe empirical values to the largest and most important of the variables used in its construction then how are we expected to reach any worthwhile result ? Errors inherent in the subjective inputting of such variables will multiply exponentially the longer the model runs which is indeed what we see with climate models vs observations today. In short garbage in = garbage out
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

The EPIC failure of climate models is getting pretty embarrassing by now, don't you think? Nature, a reliable spin shill for the climate lobby, is doing their best to put lipstick on dozens of model oinkers. It's increasingly clear that alarmist flim-flams are reality's new roadkill.

The discrepancy between models and actual surface temperatures in 2014 was the fourth highest in “recorded” history and that the 5 largest warm discrepancies have occurred in the past 6 years. The repeated and growing discrepancy between models and observations is beyond precedent - for both surface and satellite comparisons.

http://climateaudit.org/2014/12/11/unprecedented-model-discrepancy/

For example, the figure below compares CMIP4.5 RCP4.5 models to updated surface observations, with a lower panel showing the discrepancy between observations and CMIP5 RCP4.5 model mean. The red and blue dotted lines show what the current vs. required future trends that are necessary for the model to 'catch up' to it predictions by 2030.

ci_glb_tas_1920_twopanel1.png


And a graphic plot for satellite temperature shows the discrepancy between model and observed data is even larger, and is increasingly dramatic.

ci_glb_tlt_1920_twopanel1.png


Piltdown Man...Lysenkoism...steady state theory...climate models...the history of fraud and flim-flam continues...
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

That graph, from the non-skeptical 'skeptical science', is a bit of a strawman. Skeptics have a variety of views, including that the "natural climate variability" occurs over many centuries...not just decades. Hence, they note that the Holocene, the era of Rome, and the MWP were as or more warm than today. And then there are other skeptics (myself included) that believe there is man-enhanced global warming, but such warming is very modest and likely beneficial.

Pointing out a linear trend upwards from 1950 to 2010 is mainly undisputed. The real question is how much of the trend since the end of the little ice age is 'natural' and how much of it is man induced.

I'm not sure that's the real question, but it is certainly a fair point. It's difficult to keep any rigor in these sorts of discussions as many of the participants are approaching this with about a 3rd graders understanding.

A more important question, which is seldom addressed, is what is the likely climate outcome given a particular set of policy actions on CO2 (etc...) emissions. How does bending the emissions curve bend the temperature curve? How does it bend the economy curve?

Forget the reasons why, increasing global temperature will have a profoundly negative effect on the economy. So too will scarcity of fossil fuels. Restrictions and efficiency mandates will also have a negative effect on the economy. However, they will also offset some of the negative effects of climate change AND resource scarcity. So the real question is what should we do now to put us in the best shape economically for the future?
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

Since the diurnal asymmetry seems to be present everywhere they look, and CO2 is one of the
well distributed greenhouse gasses, it could be tied to CO2.
For a given geographic location the intensity of incoming radiation is radically affected by day and night.
I have a theory, that in sunlight conditions, nitrogen is excited, and passes a quantum vibrational mode
to almost all of the CO2. (Yes it is a contact transfer).
while the quantum excited cycle of CO2 is short in Human time, it is long in quantum time,
between 20 and 50 ms. While the molecule is spontaneously decaying, it cannot absorb
the 14 um ground emissions.
(Basically I am saying that CO2 in the daytime stays in a state of population inversion.)
This would explain why CO2 does what we think it should at night, but not in the daytime.

I am not quite sure what in particular you are talking about, but my post was a theory
about the observation of diurnal asymmetry.
The vibrational exchange between nitrogen and CO2 is quite a common energy path.
Carbon dioxide laser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think I'm missing how the nitrogen is going to be excited given the lack of free electrons in the atmosphere?? Also vibrational contact transfer of energy is far more feasible in an enclosed container rather than out in the open.
 
Re: Our climate models are WRONG: Global warming has slowed - and recent changes are

It looks like both you and Travis 007 are here to waste everybody elses time by turning this into a US centric political hate game.

In order to debate an issue meaningfully, one must understand the terms one chooses to employ, and whenever travis has been asked to define, in his own words, the terminology used in the evidence he attacks, he can't do it.

And that's typical of conservatives--they're simply too dumb to understand any scientific words. So if you want a meaningful debate, then conservative posters either have to be ignored or removed.
 
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