Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

Objective Voice said:

Clearly, Freddie Gray wasn't a Boy Scout nor a Good Samaritan. But he didn't deserve to die over an odd look shared between himself and police officers or possession of a knife which no one has alleged was used in a crime.

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You are assuming that someone killed him and intentionally.

Blemonds said:

Being locked in is a necessity, being buckled in, not so much

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So, being free to unbelt oneself is more important than being able to escape a fire? I'm having a hard time following your point. You seem to be suggesting that it's important to not be belted in so one may escape a fire, yet one must be locked into a van so as to not be able to escape...

j-mac said:

Morning everyone...:2wave:

Let me just say a couple of things, my 2 cents if y'all will....

1. Freddie Grey had a known record for dealing, and using drugs, as well as robbery on his extensive record...Why he was even on the street instead of in jail is problem 1 with our Justice system...

2. Freddie Grey saw police that day, and they saw him. When that happened he fled...That IS probable cause, so we can all just stop with the false narrative of no probable cause...

3. Freddie Grey's actions once apprehended by police were of resistance...And we do NOT know exactly what happened during that time taking him into custody. This we will find out at trial, by experts, not in here by armchair activists with agenda's.

4. The GPS, and tracking software in the van itself has been reported to have not shown anything concerning the ride to jail to be out of the normal parameters of "rides".... No "rough ride occurred...

5. There is a witness that spoke of it sounding like Grey was thrashing "himself" around the back of the van, before he changed his story, probably to save his own skin while in jail...Remember in Balto..."Snitches get stitches"....

6. Upon arrest, and subsequent checks, Grey should absolutely have been secured properly in the back of that van. That he was not buckled in at any time is troubling, and is one thing that the officers that first put him in, and more importantly the driver of the van are responsible for, IF it is shown that this contributed to Grey's death.

7. Mosby, as well as Rawlings-Blake has demonstrated their bias in politicizing, and mishandling this incident from the start...Both should step down, and the case be handed over to a SP, and change of venue immediately.



There is an enormous amount of speculation going on in here, some of it agenda driven, some of it born of genuine dislike of authority figures like police in general, and alot of it pushed by a media that is not reporting the facts, but rather building a narrative, and forming speculation to fit that narrative going forward....It is sad.

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To the bolded, no it is not. I can make eye contact with a police officer and turn and flee if I like. That's not a crime. There is no probable cause.

j-mac said:

Nope, you need to look a little closer at Urban policing....Like I said, Freddie Gray was known to the police as a drug user, and dealer. While on patrol, they make eye contact, and Freddie takes off...That I believe, unless you have something that proves it wrong other than you just refusing to think with common sense, IS probable cause to go after, and stop/detain Gray until they find out why he ran...

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Eye contact with officers is not probable cause. Running isn't a crime either.

j-mac said:

Further to Lursa...

"Fleeing from police is not, by itself, illegal in America, and the U.S. Supreme Court has made clear that in safe neighborhoods, people not suspected of criminal activity can ignore a police officer who approaches them, even to the point of walking away.

But courts have set a different standard for places where street crime is common, ruling that police can chase, stop and frisk people if their location contributes to a suspicion of criminal activity."

Can You Run From Police? US Courts Apply a Double Standard - ABC News

“There is a Supreme Court case that states that if you are in a high-crime area, and you flee from the police unprovoked, the police have the legal ability to pursue you, and that’s what they did,” Michael Davey told reporters on Wednesday. “In this type of an incident, you do not need probable cause to arrest. You just need a reasonable suspicion to make the stop.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/04/23/after-making-eye-contact-baltimore-chases-ferguson/

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To the bolded! Surely not.

Blemonds said:

And nobody was protesting for him then. But now, he's a hometown hero in Baltimore

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Nah, sorry. We're not going to ignore that you feel you can selectively decide who is accorded their civil rights and who isnt.

And he's not a hero....the cops are seen as criminals. See the difference? They are wrong to riot because they have not been PROVEN to be criminals. And they would be wrong to riot if they are not satisfied with the results of the judicial process.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Objective Voice said:

Excon said:

Slipping and falling while banging your head still is the result of your own actions.

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How so?

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When it happens while you are intentionally trying to harm yourself. Yes it is a result of your own actions.
Had you not been trying to harm yourself and remained seated, you would not have slipped and fell.

Objective Voice said:

I could understand if Freddie Gray was walking around in the back of the van which is possible since he wasn't secured in his seat at any point during transit.

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1. :doh
2. We have already been informed that the witness said he was thrashing about.

Do you have any idea of the confined space it is? Why Officers routinely do not secure their passengers?
The confines are too tight for a prisoner who are acting out.
Even if shackled, you do not want to expose yourself to anything they can do, such as spitting or biting.

Objective Voice said:

Let's look at the evidence and see the errors of your claim.

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There are none.
The errors are yours as has been shown and will continue to be shown.

Objective Voice said:

So, Freddie Gray is restrained but not secured in the van. He's placed on his stomach, face down and head-first into the van in a confined space. How does he "bang his head against the wall" if he's laying face-down on his stomach on the floor? Rather difficult to do wouldn't you think?

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:doh iLOL
This is you again making my argument.
It wouldn't have happened at that point.
That means it happened later.

You do realize why shackles are put on a person, right?
Because they are acting out.

Objective Voice said:

At this point you could claim that Freddie Gray was banging his head against the wall of the van, but that would contradict Donte Allen's claim of "4-seconds of a little banging".

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This is you ignoring that his contradictions and denials are not credible.
If you can't get past that point there is no further reason to continue.

Objective Voice said:

So, how does his position change from being head-first in the van to ending up feet-first especially if it was a smooth ride from the point Donte Allen became detainee #2 to the time the van reaches the police station?

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Do you or do you not realize that he was acting out?
And his acting out is consistent with what the witness already told investigators.

Objective Voice said:

It's reasonable to conclude that there were only two occasions where Freddie Gray had the opportunity to bang his head against the wall:

1) when he was first put in the van.

2) when he was picked up off the floor by Officer Porter who helped Freddie Gray unto the bench.

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No it is not.
That is an unreasonable conclusion.

The bolt was at the rear of the van.
He hit his head against the bolt breaking his neck and then fell crushing his voice box.
Had this happened in the beginning there would have been no reason to put shackles on him, as he wouldn't be acting out.
And we know from what the witness said to the investigators that he was still acting out while he was in the van.

Objective Voice said:

The only way Freddie Gray's head and neck injuries could possibly be "self-inflicted" is if he stood up on his own after not having been secured to the bench and he somehow fell hitting his head on the bolt. There are only two possible explanations for him falling:

1) He tripped and fall off balance of his own accord; or,

2) He slipped and fell from a not so smooth/rough ride.

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#2 is already dismissed as it was a smooth ride.
So why you bring it up is beyond me.
#1 could happen while he is acting out.
And you forgot #3; He purposely rammed his head while acting out.

Objective Voice said:

But in either case, the Baltimore PD would still be found to be negligent since they had at least one opportunity to secure Freddie Gray to the bench seat without concern for officer safety since at least one cop was willing to help him unto the bench without requiring assistance from his fellow police officers. Officer Porter wasn't affraid to go in alone at this point. Therefore, it could be reasonable to conclude that he was no longer concerned for his safety. So, why not secure Gray to the bench seat at this point?

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Another wrong assumption.
You do not need to reach across the prisoner to be able to help him take a seat, but you do to buckle them in.
The Officer safety reason still existed regardless if he was handcuffed and shackled.
If an Officer gets that close, as reaching across in such a confined space would necessitate, they can bite you, slam their head into you and even spit in your eyes.
A prisoner can still be irate and acting out even while shackled.
So don't bother trying this bs that their was no concern for Officer safety at that point. It simply isn't true.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Besides the previous information about the investigators finding the knife was in violation of the law, we now have one of the Officers trying to force the SA's hand.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Excon said:

Besides the previous information about the investigators finding the knife was in violation of the law, we now have one of the Officers trying to force the SA's hand.

BALTIMORE (AP) — One of the Baltimore police officers who arrested Freddie Gray wants the police department and prosecutor to produce a knife that was the reason for the arrest, saying in court papers that it is an illegal weapon.

The city's top prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby, said Friday in charging the officer and five others that the knife was legal under Maryland law, meaning they had arrested Gray illegally.

The motion was filed Monday by attorneys for Officer Edward Nero in Baltimore District Court.

Officer charged in Gray death contends arrest was legal​

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But I thought that the knife wasn't found till after the arrest when it fell out of his pocket?

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Montecresto said:

But I thought that the knife wasn't found till after the arrest when it fell out of his pocket?

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Where do you get that it "fell" out of his pocket?

No, that is for what he was arrested.
His suspicious activity was enough to give chase and detain to investigate further.
Then finding the illegal knife on him gave reason to arrest.
Had the illegal knife not been found, he would have walked away after finding no evidence of a crime.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Excon said:

Where do you get that it "fell" out of his pocket?

No, that is for what he was arrested.
His suspicious activity was enough to give chase and detain to investigate further.
Then finding the illegal knife on him gave reason to arrest.
Had the illegal knife not been found, he would have walked away after finding no evidence of a crime.

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Documents obtained by the Guardian show that he was charged with unlawful possession of a switch blade knife, which was found after he was detained. The documents are not clear about what led to the stop. No other charges are listed.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Montecresto said:

Documents obtained by the Guardian show that he was charged with unlawful possession of a switch blade knife, which was found after he was detained. The documents are not clear about what led to the stop. No other charges are listed.

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You continue to ignore the SCOTUS ruling that is clear about stopping suspicious people in high crime areas....I guess that one is inconvenient for you.

Rough ride lawsuits echo Freddie Gray case - CNN.com

"They would slam on their brakes like every thousand feet, and to make sure that we slammed into something in the back," he said, recalling the night in 2012 that Baltimore police showed up at his house after a noise complaint.

The situation escalated quickly, according to court documents, and he and his wife, Chrissy Abbott, ended up on the ground, cuffed, headed for the back of a police wagon just like the one that transported Freddie Gray before he died.


"They throw you in and it's dark in there and so you can't really see anything," he said. "...I would hear Chrissy from the other side, slamming into the wall and just crying out."
She was on the other side of a metal partition.


"Every time he broke or hit on the brakes, I would slam forward and then he'd start driving again, slam back the other way," Abbott said. "I felt less than human, the way they treated you."

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:

You continue to ignore the SCOTUS ruling that is clear about stopping suspicious people in high crime areas....I guess that one is inconvenient for you.

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Not at all. I don't ignore it, I disagree with it. But I'm glad to see you fall back on that considering that the knife wasn't the cause that gave chase.

Gonzo Rodeo said:

So, being free to unbelt oneself is more important than being able to escape a fire? I'm having a hard time following your point. You seem to be suggesting that it's important to not be belted in so one may escape a fire, yet one must be locked into a van so as to not be able to escape...

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Being locked in and belted in is a double whammy

ObamacareFail said:

You are assuming that someone killed him and intentionally.

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Not at all. I'm AM saying it's unfortunate that a man lost his life (once again) over both his own foolish decision to flee for no other reason than his own irrational fear and obvious neglect by law enforcement officials.

Lursa said:

Nah, sorry. We're not going to ignore that you feel you can selectively decide who is accorded their civil rights and who isnt.

And he's not a hero....the cops are seen as criminals. See the difference? They are wrong to riot because they have not been PROVEN to be criminals. And they would be wrong to riot if they are not satisfied with the results of the judicial process.

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Again, the liberal argument has to make stuff up out of thin air. Gotta love liberal argumentation

Blemonds said:

Being locked in and belted in is a double whammy

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The reason you gave for not being belted in is freedom to escape an emergency. You cite the handcuffs as additional reason for NOT being belted in, since a person wouldn't be able to free themselves from the seatbelt in case if an emergency.

This line of thought completely ignored the fact of this person being locked in the back of a van, unable to escape an emergency anyway.

Surely, you see the pointless nature of that argument, right?

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Montecresto said:

Documents obtained by the Guardian show that he was charged with unlawful possession of a switch blade knife, which was found after he was detained. The documents are not clear about what led to the stop. No other charges are listed.

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While you are pointing to documents, this is you not paying attention or ignoring all the information that has been provided on this incident.
It was not a legal knife and was probable cause to arrest him.
And they had probable cause to chase and detain for further investigation.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Excon said:

While you are pointing to documents, this is you not paying attention or ignoring all the information that has been provided on this incident.
It was not a legal knife and was probable cause to arrest him.
And they had probable cause to chase and detain for further investigation.

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The knife was found after they caught him, No probable cause mr apologist.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

REal lawyer takes incompetent DA to the woodshed.
Freddie Gray | Unlawful Arrest | Probable Cause

This has the smell of that Duke lacrosee case where the DA got intimidated by the nitwit minority community,

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Montecresto said:

Not at all. I don't ignore it, I disagree with it. But I'm glad to see you fall back on that considering that the knife wasn't the cause that gave chase.

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They didn't need any cause. His running was the cause.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Montecresto said:

The knife was found after they caught him, No probable cause mr apologist.

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What is it about the SCOTUS ruling you're failing to get? The chase was legal.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

KLATTU said:

REal lawyer takes incompetent DA to the woodshed.
Freddie Gray | Unlawful Arrest | Probable Cause

This has the smell of that Duke lacrosee case where the DA got intimidated by the nitwit minority community,

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None of that is relevant to probable cause since I have not read anywhere that the police were aware of the knife before they chose to chase and detain him. Unless they did know of it?

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:

What is it about the SCOTUS ruling you're failing to get? The chase was legal.

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There are other rulings and many circumstances re: probable cause. There's a very good chance that that one will not play when all circumstances are examined in court. It's certainly not the only ruling on the legitimacy of probable cause. It's one of the more 'flexible' ones due to so many variables and often manipulated.

Again, the case will get very intense legal scrutiny because of the publicity.