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Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

Nonetheless, this doesn't change anything I've said concerning how Freddie Gray may have sustained his neck injury nor who I believe is responsible for his injury and subsequent death.
I agree, it does not change what you said being wrong.


And yet you continue to use his flimsy testimony as clear evidence as to what happened on Freddie Gray's side of the police van when all Donte Allen heard was "4-seconds" of "a little banging" coming from Freddie Gray's side.
Flimsy? iLOL :doh
What is flimsy is his current statements. Not what he previously told investigators without any known incentive.


You're really stretching things here in an attempt to force your interpretation of what happened inside the rear-right detainee section of the police van to fit what actually happened when in truth no one knows for sure what happened.
You are being untruthful.
What I said is supported by the evidence.


But I enjoyed reading this:

And then more recently this...


Two separate timelines along with Donte Allen's own statement indicate that the so-called "thrashing" did not occur during the time Donte Allen was a detainee. He only heard 4-seconds of "little banging" and then silence which falls right in line with the estimated time Freddie Gray sustained his neck injury which according to both timelines was 15 minutes after he was arrested, but 5-minutes before Donte Allen became detainee #2.
This is you ignoring the evidence, as well as the fact that the witnesses current statements lack credibility in light of the reason he is making them.


Another minor issue, but it warrants pointing out your hypocrisy here. You asked me to prove that Freddie Gray's neck injury wasn't self-inflected then turn around and insist that another poster "stop the proof argument". Kinda one-sided don't you think?...demanding proof on the one hand but insisting that posters stop asking you to do the same when your arguments don't pan out. It's quite laughable really. In any case, while I can't prove that Freddie Gray's neck injury was not self-inflicted, the autopsy report makes it clear that it is highly unlikely that he inflicted such a severe injury unto himself.
Holy ****! :doh
Wrong. There is no hypocrisy there.
You obviously do not understand what you read.
It was an argument about evidence.
Asking for proof of an argument like I did, is not the same as saying a person has no proof in an argument of the evidence like you did.
 
So, if at some time after 8:59 a.m. when the on-scene police officers checked on Freddie Gray a third time and found their suspect/detainee to be "unresponsive", don't you think that would have been the perfect time to request paramedics be dispatched to the scene especially when someone in their custody is no longer breathing? You see, it doesn't matter whether you or anyone else believed he was faking his injuries earlier. What matters is how and if law enforcement responded to his medical needs when it became apparent the he needed medical attention. The fact that "Officer Goodson asked for an additional unit to check on Gray" is a strong indication that they knew something was wrong with their suspect.
Sources: Baltimore police, State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby.
:lamo:lamo:lamo
Unquoted and actually unsourced.
And then we have the fact that Mosby is an established liar.


This bit about he was unresponsive does not mean he was unable to respond like he was at the final stop.
This stop referenced that he was helped to get on the bench, not forcible put on the bench. You do understand what helped means right? That's an indication that he was conscious.

And as we know the witness says he was banging his head and thrashing about, so we know he was conscious.
And as already pointed out asking for an inhaler is faking when he is obvious breathing fine and screaming.

Your "apparently needs medical attention because of breathing" argument fails.
What they called for was an ambulance at that stop was for a believed broken arm.
But then decided to take him to the station.



For more accuracy, try this out.
Sourced through video reports.

Freddie Gray Timeline



The above all relates to Donte Allen's statement of events which as I said (and it would appear we both agree) don't require re-hashing. But making claims that Gray's injury was self-inflicted without taking the events of all that occurred into account subsequent to his arrest, being shackled and placed head-first in the back of the van really does make such claims sound ridiculous.

The above all relates to Donte Allen's statement of events which as I said (and it would appear we both agree) don't require re-hashing. But making claims that Gray's injury was self-inflicted without taking the events of all that occurred into account subsequent to his arrest, being shackled and placed head-first in the back of the van really does make such claims sound ridiculous.
You keep ignoring that self inflicted is the evidence.
We have already been told that that is what this sounded like to the witness.
And a person thrashing around and banging their head during a smooth ride speaks to self infliction as well.

To show otherwise you are going to have to show, by evidence, that it was not self inflicted.


You can argue that he somehow managed to turn himself around while laying on his stomach with his hands cuffed behind his back at the wrist and his ankles in shackles after having been placed on the floor of the van, but when taking his restraints, his physical position in such a confined space into account AND the fact that he was originally placed in the back of the van head-first, the only part that makes sense as to how Freddie Gray could have possibly gotten himself into position where his head is at the back of the van was when he was helped on the bench by Officer Porter but still not secured in a seatbelt. This quite possibly is when Freddie Gray falls to the floor, slams his head on the bolt and breaks his neck.
And again. Thrashing and banging his head during a smooth ride speaks to his injuries being from his own actions and thus self inflicted.
 
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Frankly speaking, if I was riding in the back of a van with my hands cuffed behind my back, I would not want to be buckled in. If there is an emergency, I would be unable to unbuckle myself

If there was an emergency, and you had no way of breaking your fall because your hands were tied behind your back, it's likely already too late for you.
 
Imagine the horror we all faced...and the cop that shot him...when the man that was behind on child support ran from being arrested and was shot fleeing?

OMG! Nobody got shot here....You don't even know which case you are arguing against cops for do you? You've just shown that it doesn't matter to you, that you are against police regardless of the situation....Nice going.
 
Yeah, let's see how the grand jury handles this. "High crime area", "eye contact," and no current warrants?

1. High crime area, and eye contact are the SCOTUS benchmarks...I know you hate that, but that is what the law is.
2. You have no idea what warrants were out on him, or not. Hell, you have shown you don't even know which black criminal you are discussing.

"No probable cause."

You've already been proven wrong on that...Your disagreement is with the Supreme Court...

He posed no visible (and I dont think he had any violent arrests either, maybe assault?) threat to the public. Good luck with 'reasonable suspicion.'

I believe that selling drugs IS a violence against the community, Here is Freddie's rap sheet....AGAIN...

March 20, 2015: Possession of a Controlled Dangerous Substance
March 13, 2015: Malicious destruction of property, second-degree assault
January 20, 2015: Fourth-degree burglary, trespassing
January 14, 2015: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute
December 31, 2014: Possession of narcotics with intent to distribute
December 14, 2014: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 31, 2014: Illegal gambling, trespassing
January 25, 2014: Possession of marijuana
September 28, 2013: Distribution of narcotics, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, second-degree assault, second-degree escape
April 13, 2012: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, violation of probation
July 16, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession with intent to distribute
March 28, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
March 14, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to manufacture and distribute
February 11, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 29, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, violation of probation
August 28, 2007: Possession of marijuana
August 23, 2007: False statement to a peace officer, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
July 16, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance (2 counts)

So, as we see here not only was Freddie Gray a Drug dealer, liar, and a thief, but YOU Lursa are wrong on nearly every word you're typing in here...Now, it has become so easy to bat down your own falsehoods in here, you're begining to bore me....Come on...Get with the program here, I mean, it's not like your claims are not able to be verified or anything....
 
On a sidenote, I had a discussion with a parent on my kid's soccer team. He happens to be a black police officer.

He said that when he decided to become a cop, much of his family stopped speaking to him. He said joining the police force in the black community is "selling out to the other side."

He said white cops aren't accepted in the black community, and black cops are considered to be traitors.

That says a ton.
 
If there was an emergency, and you had no way of breaking your fall because your hands were tied behind your back, it's likely already too late for you.
If the emergency happened to be a fire, I wouldn't need to break any fall. I would need to unbuckle my seat belt
 
1. High crime area, and eye contact are the SCOTUS benchmarks...I know you hate that, but that is what the law is.
2. You have no idea what warrants were out on him, or not. Hell, you have shown you don't even know which black criminal you are discussing.



You've already been proven wrong on that...Your disagreement is with the Supreme Court...



I believe that selling drugs IS a violence against the community, Here is Freddie's rap sheet....AGAIN...

March 20, 2015: Possession of a Controlled Dangerous Substance
March 13, 2015: Malicious destruction of property, second-degree assault
January 20, 2015: Fourth-degree burglary, trespassing
January 14, 2015: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute
December 31, 2014: Possession of narcotics with intent to distribute
December 14, 2014: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 31, 2014: Illegal gambling, trespassing
January 25, 2014: Possession of marijuana
September 28, 2013: Distribution of narcotics, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, second-degree assault, second-degree escape
April 13, 2012: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, violation of probation
July 16, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession with intent to distribute
March 28, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
March 14, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to manufacture and distribute
February 11, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 29, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, violation of probation
August 28, 2007: Possession of marijuana
August 23, 2007: False statement to a peace officer, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
July 16, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance (2 counts)

So, as we see here not only was Freddie Gray a Drug dealer, liar, and a thief, but YOU Lursa are wrong on nearly every word you're typing in here...Now, it has become so easy to bat down your own falsehoods in here, you're begining to bore me....Come on...Get with the program here, I mean, it's not like your claims are not able to be verified or anything....

The left sure does pick odd heroes
 
The left sure does pick odd heroes

Yeah they do....We'll see if they have the stones to come into the other thread I just started on Officer Moore in NYC that just died Saturday, and continue with their "No probable cause" Crap!
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Slipping and falling while banging your head still is the result of your own actions.

How so?

I could understand if Freddie Gray was walking around in the back of the van which is possible since he wasn't secured in his seat at any point during transit. But such a slip and fall wouldn't be the same as intentionally trying to injury yourself. That would be called an accidental injury since he had no intentions to bring about such serve harm to himself. Let's look at the evidence and see the errors of your claim.

8:46:12 a.m. — The van makes its first stop. Rice, Nero and Miller remove Gray from the wagon, put flexcuffs on his wrists and shackles on his ankles and complete paperwork. They then put Gray on his stomach, head-first on the van floor.

So, Freddie Gray is restrained but not secured in the van. He's placed on his stomach, face down and head-first into the van in a confined space. How does he "bang his head against the wall" if he's laying face-down on his stomach on the floor? Rather difficult to do wouldn't you think?

8:59 a.m. — Van makes third stop. Goodson asks for an additional unit to check on Gray. Officer William Porter and Goodson check on Gray. Gray asks for help, says he can't breathe and asks twice for a medic. Porter helps Gray onto the bench.

At this point you could claim that Freddie Gray was banging his head against the wall of the van, but that would contradict Donte Allen's claim of "4-seconds of a little banging". In any case, we know for sure that Freddie Gray was in an up-right position for only the second time during transit: The first time being when he was initially arrested and only for approximately 3 minutes with no "ear witness" to hear him other than the police riding in the van; the second as indicated above. So, how does his position change from being head-first in the van to ending up feet-first especially if it was a smooth ride from the point Donte Allen became detainee #2 to the time the van reaches the police station?

It's reasonable to conclude that there were only two occasions where Freddie Gray had the opportunity to bang his head against the wall:

1) when he was first put in the van.

2) when he was picked up off the floor by Officer Porter who helped Freddie Gray unto the bench.

The only way Freddie Gray's head and neck injuries could possibly be "self-inflicted" is if he stood up on his own after not having been secured to the bench and he somehow fell hitting his head on the bolt. There are only two possible explanations for him falling:

1) He tripped and fall off balance of his own accord; or,

2) He slipped and fell from a not so smooth/rough ride.

But in either case, the Baltimore PD would still be found to be negligent since they had at least one opportunity to secure Freddie Gray to the bench seat without concern for officer safety since at least one cop was willing to help him unto the bench without requiring assistance from his fellow police officers. Officer Porter wasn't affraid to go in alone at this point. Therefore, it could be reasonable to conclude that he was no longer concerned for his safety. So, why not secure Gray to the bench seat at this point?
 
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OMG! Nobody got shot here....You don't even know which case you are arguing against cops for do you? You've just shown that it doesn't matter to you, that you are against police regardless of the situation....Nice going.

Of course I do, it was a reference to the SC shooting, using it to show the irony of your statement.:doh

And I am not remotely against cops. I supported the Ferguson cop from the beginning. So...still wrong! lol
 
1. High crime area, and eye contact are the SCOTUS benchmarks...I know you hate that, but that is what the law is.
2. You have no idea what warrants were out on him, or not. Hell, you have shown you don't even know which black criminal you are discussing.



You've already been proven wrong on that...Your disagreement is with the Supreme Court...



I believe that selling drugs IS a violence against the community, Here is Freddie's rap sheet....AGAIN...

March 20, 2015: Possession of a Controlled Dangerous Substance
March 13, 2015: Malicious destruction of property, second-degree assault
January 20, 2015: Fourth-degree burglary, trespassing
January 14, 2015: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute
December 31, 2014: Possession of narcotics with intent to distribute
December 14, 2014: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 31, 2014: Illegal gambling, trespassing
January 25, 2014: Possession of marijuana
September 28, 2013: Distribution of narcotics, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, second-degree assault, second-degree escape
April 13, 2012: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, violation of probation
July 16, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession with intent to distribute
March 28, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
March 14, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to manufacture and distribute
February 11, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 29, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, violation of probation
August 28, 2007: Possession of marijuana
August 23, 2007: False statement to a peace officer, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
July 16, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance (2 counts)

So, as we see here not only was Freddie Gray a Drug dealer, liar, and a thief, but YOU Lursa are wrong on nearly every word you're typing in here...Now, it has become so easy to bat down your own falsehoods in here, you're begining to bore me....Come on...Get with the program here, I mean, it's not like your claims are not able to be verified or anything....

Oh please. And I wasnt wrong....I said I didnt remember if any were violent offenses...and none were...your fearful opinion notwithstanding.

There was no probable cause (they didnt know his record when they 'made eye contact' with him :doh) and that will be examined closely in upcoming court proceedings.

And the entirety of the stop will be what is examined closely. Not just a couple of points...let's face it....the guy died in their custody. If they cant absolutely prove they had reason to stop him, they are done. It wont hang on that SCOTUS decision alone....there is plenty of other precedent to counter it with.
 
The left sure does pick odd heroes

And it's sad that some minds are so rigidly locked that they cant conceive that defending people's rights and the Constitution applies to everyone, even street skells. That they cant comprehend people defending actual principles over personal bias.

No one sees this guy as a hero.
 
If the emergency happened to be a fire, I wouldn't need to break any fall. I would need to unbuckle my seat belt

.. and what caused the fire? An accident?
 
I believe that selling drugs IS a violence against the community, Here is Freddie's rap sheet....AGAIN...

March 20, 2015: Possession of a Controlled Dangerous Substance
March 13, 2015: Malicious destruction of property, second-degree assault
January 20, 2015: Fourth-degree burglary, trespassing
January 14, 2015: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute
December 31, 2014: Possession of narcotics with intent to distribute
December 14, 2014: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 31, 2014: Illegal gambling, trespassing
January 25, 2014: Possession of marijuana
September 28, 2013: Distribution of narcotics, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, second-degree assault, second-degree escape
April 13, 2012: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, violation of probation
July 16, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession with intent to distribute
March 28, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
March 14, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to manufacture and distribute
February 11, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 29, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, violation of probation
August 28, 2007: Possession of marijuana
August 23, 2007: False statement to a peace officer, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
July 16, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance (2 counts)

Clearly, Freddie Gray wasn't a Boy Scout nor a Good Samaritan. But he didn't deserve to die over an odd look shared between himself and police officers or possession of a knife which no one has alleged was used in a crime.
 
Clearly, Freddie Gray wasn't a Boy Scout nor a Good Samaritan. But he didn't deserve to die over an odd look shared between himself and police officers or possession of a knife which no one has alleged was used in a crime.

The other prisoner in the Van said it was a smooth ride all the way to the Police station and if there was any real evidence that he was pushed or thrown into the back of the Van then there would have been more than a Murder 2

The Murder 2 charge won't stick and I doubt any of the other charges will stick.

Face it, Democrats and those inner city area residents over reacted after jumping to conclusions because this false narrative of disproportionate Police brutality has been pushed down our throats.
 
And it's sad that some minds are so rigidly locked that they cant conceive that defending people's rights and the Constitution applies to everyone, even street skells. That they cant comprehend people defending actual principles over personal bias.

No one sees this guy as a hero.
Nobody's defending Gray's rights. He has no rights. He's being held up as a hero by Leftists all the way up to the White House. Strange hero indeed
 
Clearly, Freddie Gray wasn't a Boy Scout nor a Good Samaritan. But he didn't deserve to die over an odd look shared between himself and police officers or possession of a knife which no one has alleged was used in a crime.
Perhaps he should have sat down in the back of the van, like the other arrestee, and let the system run it's course. He obviously knew how the system worked
 
Doesn't matter. If you're trapped by a fire your first goal is to escape, not determine the cause.

In that case, the fact his is handcuffed is secondary to the fact that he's locked inside of a box, don't you agree?
 
He had the same rights as you before he died. :doh
And nobody was protesting for him then. But now, he's a hometown hero in Baltimore
 
In that case, the fact his is handcuffed is secondary to the fact that he's locked inside of a box, don't you agree?

Being locked in is a necessity, being buckled in, not so much
 
.. and what caused the fire? An accident?

Not necessarily. Most vehicle fires I have personally seen over the years had nothing to do with accidents. One was my own car.
 
The other prisoner in the Van said it was a smooth ride all the way to the Police station and if there was any real evidence that he was pushed or thrown into the back of the Van then there would have been more than a Murder 2

The Murder 2 charge won't stick and I doubt any of the other charges will stick.

Face it, Democrats and those inner city area residents over reacted after jumping to conclusions because this false narrative of disproportionate Police brutality has been pushed down our throats.

Yes unfortunately so many on the left are on the same hair trigger as Al Sharpton. The moment word gets out that a black man dies in a confrontation with a cop, their minds are already made up. They assume the cop is guilty. And this all started with Fergeson Missouri....where the cop did absolutely nothing wrong and the so-called victim was a strong armed robber that attempted to kill him.
 
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