• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Off topic nonsense.

My, my, my, you sure are quick to dismiss facts that don't conform to your beliefs.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

My, my, my, you sure are quick to dismiss facts that don't conform to your beliefs.
:doh
:lamo :lamo :lamo
Dismissed as irrelevant to the topic.
Apparently you do not understand what facts are on topic and what aren't.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Holy ****!
Your whole brutally dumb positions are based on assumptions.
For all you know they thought he was faking injury. Which is what many criminals do. Or do you not know that?
Besides that, the lack of a seatbelt may not have contributed to his injury at all. So stop assuming, when it is an absurd thing to do.

Let me back this up for you.

We were discussing whether or not his injuries were sustained during his arrest or after. If they happened after, that is on the officers as an excessive use of force. If they were during, however, that means failing to buckle him in and denying him medical attention for a half hour are is also on the officers (these two things were admitted by the Commissioner, if you'll recall).

You made the argument that I was assuming the injuries happened while in custody, i.e. post arrest. You made the counter argument in post #280 that "His limp body is definitely an indication that he was injured during."

So, either:
1) He was harmed by excessive use of force when it wasn't called for (after his arrest), OR
2) He was harmed during his arrest and left to flop around unsecured in the back of a moving vehicle, likely exacerbating any damage cause during his arrest, and delayed medical attention for over half an hour (both facts admitted by the Comissioner).

Neither option makes the police look good.

When you made the argument that he might have been injured during his arrest, and then excused the officers involved for failing to restrain him in the van "because he might not have been able to sit," that is an argument from brutal stupidity. You then made it worse by saying his injuries may not have warranted immediate medical care... injuries that just said would preclude him from sitting! You think these injuries were sustained during his arrest, meaning they are actually Gray's fault and he is ultimately responsible for them, so when he get's majorly messed up and can't sit, THAT'S his fault too, and he may not have needed medical care because he could have been faking it, so flopping around the van (which he would have done if paralyzed and unsecured) was also his fault! Do you think they didn't hear him bouncing around on stuff? Do you think they were intentionally ignoring him, or could they not hear him over their laughter?

Brutally stupid. Perhaps wives should know better than to back talk their husbands, since that is the leading cause of knocked out teeth. Maybe women shouldn't wear clothes that reveal their faces or ankles because that gets them raped. Maybe children shouldn't cry so much because that makes mommy and daddy hit them with belts.

Just... brutally stupid. At best - AT BEST - you could make the argument that Gray's recent surgery made him susceptible to injury and that the officers used the appropriate use of force in his arrest so the damage was unintentional. This argument would show the officer's actions in the best possible light... right up until you include the fact that he wasn't secured in the back of the van, and the fact that he didn't receive medical attention for so long when plenty of opportunities were passed up.

Somebody took something too far somewhere and a man is dead because of it. It really doesn't matter if you think he was a scumbag, which he most surely was, but the police don't have the right to kill people, nor physically mistreat them while in custody, nor deny them care. I hope somebody goes to jail for this, so the small percentage of the police force who are straight up bullies will think twice before meting out their own brand of street justice.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

:doh
:lamo :lamo :lamo
Dismissed as irrelevant to my beliefs.
Apparently you do not understand what facts are on topic and what aren't.

fify.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

*UPDATED* – Did Freddie Gray Have Spinal Surgery (From Prior Car Accident) A Week Before His Arrest?… | The Last Refuge

Read this article, it explains the car accident case by stating it was not actually a car accident that he filled suit for, but for possible lead paint poisoning which occurred for several years due to lead based paint. This occurred while he was a developing teen. If you look at the effects of lead poisoning, one of the possible effects of long term exposure is that it effects bone development and in some cases can lead to Osteoporosis. If he had weakened bones due to lead exposure, it is more then possible that the struggle during his arrest may have caused the fatal injury, which then was made worse by moving his neck all over the place. If he had to be taserd when he was arrested, then he was resisting. The video only shows the arrest, and not what occurred prior, but based on the witnesses, he was taserd. If you look at his arrest record, he also does have an arrest for assault, so he was not only a drug dealer, but a potentially violent drug dealer. Which leads me to believe there is evidence that he resisted arrest, and based on a previous medical condition, was fatally injured during his arrest.

So, do you believe the officers involved should be punished for failing to secure him in the back of the van?
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Stop lying. I didn't say that.

And now you are running from the truth. I accused you of dismissing my earlier points, and you directly confessed to doing so in post 302.

You're hiding something. Something that you don't want to talk about. Perhaps it's related to this story? Perhaps related to...race, maybe?
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

And now you are running from the truth. I accused you of dismissing my earlier points, and you directly confessed to doing so in post 302.

You're hiding something. Something that you don't want to talk about. Perhaps it's related to this story? Perhaps related to...race, maybe?

You are speaking nonsense.
You posted and irrelevant image to this discussion and it, as well as your reply, was dismissed as they are irrelevant.

Clearly you do not understand what facts are on topic and what aren't.

You then compounded that by lying.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Let me back this up for you.
:doh

Again.

Your whole brutally dumb positions are based on assumptions.
For all you know they thought he was faking injury. Which is what many criminals do. Or do you not know that?
Besides that, the lack of a seatbelt may not have contributed to his injury at all. So stop assuming when it is an absurd thing to do.

We are not going to get anywhere until you stop making assumptions.


If they happened after, that is on the officers as an excessive use of force.
That is an assumption.
And as this topic has continued with newer information since then, he may have caused the injuries himself.
Or he could have exacerbated an injury that he sustained when he resisted.



If they were during, however, that means failing to buckle him in and denying him medical attention for a half hour are is also on the officers (these two things were admitted by the Commissioner, if you'll recall).
No. It means no such thing, that is nothing more than your assumption.
His failing to be seat-belted may not have contributed to his injuries.

And again, they may have though he was faking injury.
Even though it appeared he was limp, he then stood and ducked into the back of the van on his own.


You made the argument that I was assuming the injuries happened while in custody, i.e. post arrest. You made the counter argument in post #280 that "His limp body is definitely an indication that he was injured during."
:doh
Indication was underlined for a reason.
Indication does not mean absolute.
Please tell me you know that.
And as already mentioned, he then stood and ducked into the back of the van on his own. Which very well could be an indication that he was faking.


So, either:
No, there is no either about these.
There are other possibilities, such as he purposely injured himself.


When you made the argument that he might have been injured during his arrest, and then excused the officers involved for failing to restrain him in the van "because he might not have been able to sit," that is an argument from brutal stupidity.
Wrong.
He may have been injured and the Police may have thought he was faking based on his ability to stand and duck.
Clearly your brutal stupidity comment applies to your arguments only.


You then made it worse by saying his injuries may not have warranted immediate medical care...
Wrong.
I didn't make anything worse.
A guy wanting his inhaler while obviously breathing and talking okay is an indication of faking.


injuries that just said would preclude him from sitting!
:doh
You can't make a guy sit who is forcing his body not to. That wold be brutality.


You think these injuries were sustained during his arrest, meaning they are actually Gray's fault and he is ultimately responsible for them, so when he get's majorly messed up and can't sit, THAT'S his fault too, and he may not have needed medical care because he could have been faking it, so flopping around the van (which he would have done if paralyzed and unsecured) was also his fault! Do you think they didn't hear him bouncing around on stuff? Do you think they were intentionally ignoring him, or could they not hear him over their laughter?
Where do you get this flopping around bs from? If he is purposely thrashing, that is not flopping.

Obviously you do not understand that he may have possibly been injured during his resistance and that the Police believed he was faking injury.


Brutally stupid.
Yes I agree, your arguments are brutally stupid.


Just... brutally stupid.
Yes, I already agreed, your arguments are brutally stupid.


right up until you include the fact that he wasn't secured in the back of the van,
No. There is nothing that connects the two.
This is just another of your baseless assumptions.


and the fact that he didn't receive medical attention for so long when plenty of opportunities were passed up.
When it was known he was injured they called for medical attention immediately.


Somebody took something too far somewhere and a man is dead because of it.
:doh
Another absurd assumption.


I hope somebody goes to jail for this,
If intentional, sure. If they accidentally caused it during his arrest as a result of his resisting, they should not face criminal charges.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

I had understood that the injury was not incurred on arrest but later.


But we certainly do have a problem with our police and judiciary system.

I've purposely waited until the initial police investigation report came out hoping it would provide some answers. Unfortunately, per this NYTimes article, it doesn't appear that the Baltimore PD is willing to disclose any of its findings on this case. Nonetheless, per the article it has been discovered that the police van that transported Freddie Gray made an undisclosed stop while enroute to the Baltimore police station.

Completing their initial investigation into the fatal injury sustained by a young man in their custody, the Baltimore police on Thursday gave state prosecutors their findings, including the discovery that a police van carrying the man made a previously undisclosed stop en route to a police station.

The new stop turned up on video taken from “a privately owned camera,” the deputy police commissioner, Kevin Davis, said, and it was “previously unknown to us.” That suggested that the officers involved had not told investigators about it.

What was the purpose for the stop and why didn't it get reported? More important, what happened during the stop? Baltimore PD aren't telling.

Another runner with a record.

STOP running and resisting!

This is why I delayed responding to this incident so as not to prejudge events before the facts come out. All we know for sure is:

- Yes, the area where Freddie Gray was stopped does have a high crime rate, mostly drug related.

- Yes, Freddie Gray does have a police record (some drug related minor crimes).

- No, we don't know that he was running police or if he was, why. Police have yet to explain why Freddie Gray was stopped and subsequently apprehended and taken into police custody other than:

Officers riding bicycles arrested Mr. Gray in the 1700 block of Presbury Street, in the Sandtown-Winchester neighborhood of northwest Baltimore. They charged him with illegal possession of a switchblade knife, and called a van to take him to the Western District police station.

So, it would appear that claims that he was "running and resisting" would be inaccurate and premature at this point. We just don't know at this time why he was stopped in the first place and, as such, whether or not he had committed any crime prior to being apprehended.

As to the mystery surrounding Freddie Gray's injuries that lead to his death...

At some point, Mr. Gray suffered a severe neck injury, which caused his death. Among the crucial unanswered questions are how he was hurt, whether it was before or during the van ride, and whether the ride exacerbated an earlier injury. The police have acknowledged that he was not wearing a seatbelt, contrary to department policy, and that he should have received medical attention sooner.

The video footage of his apprehension doesn't tell a clear picture of what all occurred. We do know that Freddie Gray:

- was tased prior to being restrained on the ground.

- had limited use of his legs (perhaps because they were bent cross-ways behind him as the two bicycle policemen held him down while back-up/reinforcements came on the scene).

- was placed into additional leg restraints on the scene just prior to be being placed into the police van.

- suffered sever injury to his neck (voice box) and spine (at the neck; reportedly 80% of his spine was severed at the neck) while in transit.

As to this topic: ..I wonder if they bounced him around in the back? Cuffed up behind and they like to
rattle you around and bounce you off the walls since there isn't anyway to hold yourself down. It's possible to ram your head on the steel walls or even bounce upside down on the floor..which could snap your neck/spine. They are supposed to seat belt you in..but they don't always do it

The confirmed non-use of seatbelts to secure the suspect in the back of the police van (paddy wagon) would support your suspicions. Still, we don't know precisely what happened in this case. But what IS clear is that the victim died at the hands of the Baltimore PD from injuries that were likely suffered during an unreported stop while enroute to the police station. The question everyone should be asking (other than why was this young man stopped in the first place) is "What really happened during that stop?"
 
Last edited:
EDIT: Although Freddie Gray was running prior to being apprehended by the police, it's unclear why he was stopped or why he was running in the first place.

Batts also said it is still unclear why Gray was stopped in the first place, saying only that officers "made eye contact" with Gray and another man, and the two took off running.

"That's part of the question we have to dig into," Batts said, "if there's more than just running. There is no law against running."

Personal Note: I suspect he was doing something illegal or highly suspect and believed the police saw him. Figuring he was busted since he made eye contact with the bicycle police, he (and the guy he was with) fled. While I would agree that this would be sufficient for probably cause (why would you run after making eye contact with the police if something wasn't wrong), as Mr. Batts clearly stated, "There is no law against running."
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

No. It means no such thing, that is nothing more than your assumption.
His failing to be seat-belted may not have contributed to his injuries.

If he was limp due to paralysis, there is no way he could have not been hurt during a car ride with no restraint and no way to hold himself up. If you believe someone who can't move wouldn't be hurt even on a normal car ride, then I challenge you to drive a block with a baby in your trunk.

What's that? That would be reckless and stupid? I agree. That would be reckless and stupid. Babies have no way to keep themselves from bouncing off of surfaces. Any baby in that situation would most likely be hurt. (Psst, here's a clue bird for you: so would a person who was paralyzed, or a healthy person with his arms tied behind his back)

And again, they may have though he was faking injury.

Is this a reason to not buckle him in? Let's think about this with our brain meats for a second.

Given that he WAS faking his injuries, he was still handcuffed, meaning there was no way for him support himself if the vehicle made any kind of maneuver. The police intentionally left him unbuckled, to what... teach him a lesson? Not the police's job, and unsafe to boot. Plus, you'd have to believe Baltimore police officers aren't strong enough to buckle in a person faking paralysis... think about that for a second.

Given that he WASN'T faking his injuries, there is still no reason to not buckle him in. Either way you look at it, not buckling him in is negligence, plain and simple.

No, there is no either about these.
There are other possibilities, such as he purposely injured himself.

Oh yeah, because people sever their own spines all the time! How could I have forgotten such a common fact? Especially those who recently had surgery on their spines, yeah, they love running into things intentionally.

While I already allowed for this several posts back by saying he could have taken a header off the top bunk on purpose, it is clear by now that this isn't the case. The police would have led with that from the first minute of the first hour of the first protest.

Wrong.
I didn't make anything worse.

Is that an ASSumption I see?

A guy wanting his inhaler while obviously breathing and talking okay is an indication of faking.

Sweet Jesus... ok, so it's pretty clear you're an NYPD cop...
Death of Eric Garner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can't make a guy sit who is forcing his body not to. That wold be brutality.

A guy who can force his body to not sit does not have an 80% severed spine! Seriously, do you even think about what you type before you type it? If several officers who just pinned a skinny dude down while a van came for him can't get him into a buckle while his hands are cuffed behind his back, those officers are seriously weak... oh, and the guy clearly doesn't have a severed spine.

Just raw stupidity, right there.

Obviously you do not understand that he may have possibly been injured during his resistance and that the Police believed he was faking injury.

He couldn't have been injured during his arrest and also able to resist being put into a seat belt. This is indisputable.


When it was known he was injured they called for medical attention immediately.

And when was that, exactly? Show me your source. And tell me why the Baltimore City Police Commissioner said the officers involved missed several opportunities over the course of a half hour to call for paramedics?
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

If he was limp due to paralysis, there is no way he could have not been hurt during a car ride with no restraint and no way to hold himself up. If you believe someone who can't move wouldn't be hurt even on a normal car ride, then I challenge you to drive a block with a baby in your trunk.

What's that? That would be reckless and stupid? I agree. That would be reckless and stupid. Babies have no way to keep themselves from bouncing off of surfaces. Any baby in that situation would most likely be hurt. (Psst, here's a clue bird for you: so would a person who was paralyzed, or a healthy person with his arms tied behind his back)



Is this a reason to not buckle him in? Let's think about this with our brain meats for a second.

Given that he WAS faking his injuries, he was still handcuffed, meaning there was no way for him support himself if the vehicle made any kind of maneuver. The police intentionally left him unbuckled, to what... teach him a lesson? Not the police's job, and unsafe to boot. Plus, you'd have to believe Baltimore police officers aren't strong enough to buckle in a person faking paralysis... think about that for a second.

Given that he WASN'T faking his injuries, there is still no reason to not buckle him in. Either way you look at it, not buckling him in is negligence, plain and simple.



Oh yeah, because people sever their own spines all the time! How could I have forgotten such a common fact? Especially those who recently had surgery on their spines, yeah, they love running into things intentionally.

While I already allowed for this several posts back by saying he could have taken a header off the top bunk on purpose, it is clear by now that this isn't the case. The police would have led with that from the first minute of the first hour of the first protest.



Is that an ASSumption I see?



Sweet Jesus... ok, so it's pretty clear you're an NYPD cop...
Death of Eric Garner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



A guy who can force his body to not sit does not have an 80% severed spine! Seriously, do you even think about what you type before you type it? If several officers who just pinned a skinny dude down while a van came for him can't get him into a buckle while his hands are cuffed behind his back, those officers are seriously weak... oh, and the guy clearly doesn't have a severed spine.

Just raw stupidity, right there.



He couldn't have been injured during his arrest and also able to resist being put into a seat belt. This is indisputable.




And when was that, exactly? Show me your source. And tell me why the Baltimore City Police Commissioner said the officers involved missed several opportunities over the course of a half hour to call for paramedics?
:doh Besides being wrong and again making lame assumptions ... You are a day late and a dollar short.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...uffered-head-injury-police-transport-van.html
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

:doh Besides being wrong and again making lame assumptions ... You are a day late and a dollar short.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...uffered-head-injury-police-transport-van.html

Would that be the van the police failed to buckle him in to? You know, when his arms were pinned behind his back and he didn't even have the ability to buckle himself in? That's the van?

It seems the police have a history of doing this to people.

Freddie Gray not the first to come out of Baltimore police van with serious injuries - Baltimore Sun

Relatives of Dondi Johnson Sr., who was left a paraplegic after a 2005 police van ride, won a $7.4 million verdict against police officers. A year earlier, Jeffrey Alston was awarded $39 million by a jury after he became paralyzed from the neck down as the result of a van ride. Others have also received payouts after filing lawsuits.
.....
Christine Abbott, a 27-year-old assistant librarian at the Johns Hopkins University, is suing city officers in federal court, alleging that she got such a ride in 2012. According to the suit, officers cuffed Abbott's hands behind her back, threw her into a police van, left her unbuckled and "maniacally drove" her to the Northern District police station, "tossing [her] around the interior of the police van."

"They were braking really short so that I would slam against the wall, and they were taking really wide, fast turns," Abbott said in an interview that mirrored allegations in her lawsuit. "I couldn't brace myself. I was terrified."
.....
The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.

Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.​

The fact you posted that link with a smiley face tells me you don't have the first clue what this argument is even about.

You also just got done making a case for injury during his arrest and assumed the van ride didn't injure him or make anything worse. Jesus, how wrong you are, and how proud you seem of the fact! Is this embarrassing for you? It's got to be.
 
Last edited:
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Would that be the van the police failed to buckle him in to? You know, when his arms were pinned behind his back and he didn't even have the ability to buckle himself in? That's the van?
That would be the van that Gray was trying to injure himself in and succeeded.


It seems the police have a history of doing this to people.
Irrelevant.

You posting that in response just tells me you don't have the first clue what this argument is even about and chose to ignore relevant info that is already known.

Again, as you were already informed.

Batts said another man who was in the van during the tail end of Gray's ride told investigators that Gray was "was still moving around, that he was kicking and making noises" up until the van arrived at the station. Batts said the man also said the driver did not speed, make sudden stops of "drive erratically."
Freddie Gray death: Baltimore police prisoner transport under scrutiny - World - CBC News


Your nonsensical reply didn't happen.

Freedy ****ed himself over by pretending and then by attempting to injure himself.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

That would be the van that Gray was trying to injure himself in and succeeded.

Making an assumption?


Irrelevant.

Ah, yes. So, we've got a track record of the Baltimore PD injuring people with the same kind of injuries that Gray sustained... but that's irrelevant.

Good job, councilor. You know modern courts don't actually have jesters, right?
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Making an assumption?
No, based on the evidence.
You seem to be forgetting that there is also an ear witness.

He began by faking injury.
As it is normal for suspects to bang their heads and even kick to injure their self and he was not being tossed about by the vans movement, that only leaves two possibilities, he was either trying to injure himself or was trying to escape, and the ear witness claims it sounded like he was trying injure himself.
The fact that he did means he succeeded.



Ah, yes. So, we've got a track record of the Baltimore PD injuring people with the same kind of injuries that Gray sustained... but that's irrelevant.

Good job, councilor.
:doh As usual, a lame reply.
It is irrelevant for the reason provided.
Evidence says there was no "nickel ride".
Pay attention this time.
the man also said the driver did not speed, make sudden stops of "drive erratically."


You know modern courts don't actually have jesters, right?
Your employment history is irrelevant as well.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

No, based on the evidence.
You seem to be forgetting that there is also an ear witness.

He began by faking injury.
As it is normal for suspects to bang their heads and even kick to injure their self and he was not being tossed about by the vans movement, that only leaves two possibilities, he was either trying to injure himself or was trying to escape, and the ear witness claims it sounded like he was trying injure himself.
The fact that he did means he succeeded.



:doh As usual, a lame reply.
It is irrelevant for the reason provided.
Evidence says there was no "nickel ride".
Pay attention this time.
the man also said the driver did not speed, make sudden stops of "drive erratically."


Your employment history is irrelevant as well.

Time will tell if the ridiculous notion that Gray severed his own spinal chord pans out, or if something happened during the second stop the van made where police had to "deal with Gray" (officers words, verbatim). Or perhaps something happened on the unreported stop the officers conveniently forgot to radio in (that was discovered on private CCTV).

We'll see. In the meantime, I'll entertain myself watching the apologists try to convince themselves that someone severing their own spinal cord is a believable notion, and not one borne out of brutal stupidity. You know, in lieu of the cops who have injured other parties in the same way quite a few times in the past.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Time will tell if the ridiculous notion that Gray severed his own spinal chord pans out,.
Ridiculous notion?
Not.
Did you not view the video report?

It is not often that such leaked/sourced info is wrong.
Law enforcement sources say Freddie Gray suffered head injury in police transport van | WJLA.com


or if something happened during the second stop the van made where police had to "deal with Gray" (officers words, verbatim). Or perhaps something happened on the unreported stop the officers conveniently forgot to radio in (that was discovered on private CCTV).
Just dismiss that nonsense.
1. The other Officers would not report that.
It would have been the transport Officer responsible to report a stop if needed.
2. And the relevant event took place while the other passenger was in the van, not before.
Gray was still moving and sounded like he was trying to injure himself.
Then when they reached their destination Gray stopped making noise. That would be when it happened.


In the meantime, I'll entertain myself watching the apologists try to convince themselves that someone severing their own spinal cord is a believable notion, and not one borne out of brutal stupidity.
Brutal stupidity would be not recognizing that self inflicted broken necks are a common occurrence.


How about in a slip and fall in the bathroom?

(Just a quick google found this)

Swedish man sent home with broken neck - The Local

A Swedish man complaining of pain in his neck after a fall in his bathroom was sent home from hospital without an x-ray only to find that he was nursing a broken neck.


So, is it possible to be flopping about in a moving vehicle, surrounded by a metal cage, and fall in a way that breaks your neck? Who knows, but if a simple fall in a bathroom can do it, it's not impossible.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Brutal stupidity would be not recognizing that self inflicted broken necks are a common occurrence.

ow about in a slip and fall in the bathroom?

(Just a quick google found this)

Swedish man sent home with broken neck - The Local

A Swedish man complaining of pain in his neck after a fall in his bathroom was sent home from hospital without an x-ray only to find that he was nursing a broken neck.


So, is it possible to be flopping about in a moving vehicle, surrounded by a metal cage, and fall in a way that breaks your neck? Who knows, but if a simple fall in a bathroom can do it, it's not impossible.

Conflating a slip and fall accident with an intentionally self-inflicted fatal broken neck is brutally stupid. That is sociopathic high school jock brutally stupid.

...which could have been easily avoided had the officers buckled Gray in, like their department-wide policy specified just three days before. Take a wild guess why such a memo was necessary.
 
Last edited:
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Conflating a slip and fall accident with an intentionally self-inflicted fatal broken neck is brutally stupid.
Your answer is again absurdly brutally stupid.

There is no conflation. They are brought about by ones own actions.
Slipping and falling while banging your head still is the result of your own actions.


That is sociopathic high school jock brutally stupid.
So that is what you admit to being. Figures.


which could have been easily avoided had the officers buckled Gray in, like their department-wide policy specified just three days before. Take a wild guess why such a memo was necessary.
No one has shown it was necessary.
But let me appease you with a guess. The none existent (in this case and therefore irrelevant) "nickel ride".

And again, they said it wasn't done because of Officer safety.
Whether you like that or not, that is the evidence we have to work with.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

So, do you believe the officers involved should be punished for failing to secure him in the back of the van?

I don't know anything about these vans, so I don't know enough to say. But if it can be proven that the reason Mr Gray sustained injuries as a result of him not being secured, in violation with department policy, then yes, they should be disciplined. However, there was another prisoner in the vehicle with him who made it safely to jail. Also, I think people would have noticed a vehicle driving crazy on the road in order to throw him around as much as he would have needed to be thrown around to break his neck. There is reason to believe his injuries were self inflicted.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

I've purposely waited until the initial police investigation report came out hoping it would provide some answers. Unfortunately, per this NYTimes article, it doesn't appear that the Baltimore PD is willing to disclose any of its findings on this case. Nonetheless, per the article it has been discovered that the police van that transported Freddie Gray made an undisclosed stop while enroute to the Baltimore police station.



What was the purpose for the stop and why didn't it get reported? More important, what happened during the stop? Baltimore PD aren't telling.



This is why I delayed responding to this incident so as not to prejudge events before the facts come out. All we know for sure is:

- Yes, the area where Freddie Gray was stopped does have a high crime rate, mostly drug related.

- Yes, Freddie Gray does have a police record (some drug related minor crimes).

- No, we don't know that he was running police or if he was, why. Police have yet to explain why Freddie Gray was stopped and subsequently apprehended and taken into police custody other than:



So, it would appear that claims that he was "running and resisting" would be inaccurate and premature at this point. We just don't know at this time why he was stopped in the first place and, as such, whether or not he had committed any crime prior to being apprehended.

As to the mystery surrounding Freddie Gray's injuries that lead to his death...



The video footage of his apprehension doesn't tell a clear picture of what all occurred. We do know that Freddie Gray:

- was tased prior to being restrained on the ground.

- had limited use of his legs (perhaps because they were bent cross-ways behind him as the two bicycle policemen held him down while back-up/reinforcements came on the scene).

- was placed into additional leg restraints on the scene just prior to be being placed into the police van.

- suffered sever injury to his neck (voice box) and spine (at the neck; reportedly 80% of his spine was severed at the neck) while in transit.



The confirmed non-use of seatbelts to secure the suspect in the back of the police van (paddy wagon) would support your suspicions. Still, we don't know precisely what happened in this case. But what IS clear is that the victim died at the hands of the Baltimore PD from injuries that were likely suffered during an unreported stop while enroute to the police station. The question everyone should be asking (other than why was this young man stopped in the first place) is "What really happened during that stop?"

Luckily we will know all this, when the head-cam recordings of the police are made available to the court.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

I've purposely waited until the initial police investigation report came out hoping it would provide some answers. Unfortunately, per this NYTimes article, it doesn't appear that the Baltimore PD is willing to disclose any of its findings on this case. Nonetheless, per the article it has been discovered that the police van that transported Freddie Gray made an undisclosed stop while enroute to the Baltimore police station.

There are many reasons that initial reports are not disclosed. That doesn't mean that anything nefarious is going on within the departments....

What was the purpose for the stop and why didn't it get reported? More important, what happened during the stop? Baltimore PD aren't telling.

Not yet anyway...But I do agree that the unreported stop without any supporting info is troubling, in the sense that it gives those looking to further the current meme whenever anything like this is in the news a reason to ramp up....


This is why I delayed responding to this incident so as not to prejudge events before the facts come out. All we know for sure is:

Would that others would hold judgement until we know the facts...But to be fair, you do kind of 'pre judge' a little, as is human nature...I'll point out where...

- Yes, the area where Freddie Gray was stopped does have a high crime rate, mostly drug related.

Yep, it's a bad section of Balto...When I lived in Maryland, I had a driving job early in my driving career that took me through these areas...I remember one time, while driving through, there was a group of young black men, not teens, but late teens early twenties, standing on the corner as I passed, when I heard a loud bang on the truck, just behind the drivers side window...When the guy that was riding with me, told me that that group of black men threw a brick at the truck....Why? because I was a white guy in their hood...I told a cop that was coming the other way, who did nothing, and told me to get out of there....

- Yes, Freddie Gray does have a police record (some drug related minor crimes).

Some? I'd say mostly drug related crimes...Couple being a known drug dealer, with seeing the cops, and running, and I'd say it wasn't going to end well from the jump...

- No, we don't know that he was running police or if he was, why. Police have yet to explain why Freddie Gray was stopped and subsequently apprehended and taken into police custody other than:



So, it would appear that claims that he was "running and resisting" would be inaccurate and premature at this point. We just don't know at this time why he was stopped in the first place and, as such, whether or not he had committed any crime prior to being apprehended.

No, they are NOT inaccurate, According to the AP:

"BALTIMORE (AP) — When police spotted Freddie Gray and he took off running through his Baltimore neighborhood, officers made a split-second decision to give chase, setting in motion his death in custody and rioting in the streets."

A question in Baltimore’s Freddie Gray case: Can you run from police? | The Seattle Times

Continued.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Continued.

As to the mystery surrounding Freddie Gray's injuries that lead to his death...



The video footage of his apprehension doesn't tell a clear picture of what all occurred. We do know that Freddie Gray:

- was tased prior to being restrained on the ground.

Ok, he was running, and resisting arrest...Are you suggesting he shouldn't have been tazed?

- had limited use of his legs (perhaps because they were bent cross-ways behind him as the two bicycle policemen held him down while back-up/reinforcements came on the scene).

Not sure you or I can make that kind of medical judgement based on shaky video clip...At two separate points while putting him in the van, it looks as though Freddie used his legs to steady himself....So, I don't know...

- was placed into additional leg restraints on the scene just prior to be being placed into the police van.

I didn't see that....At least in the video being shown over and over on different news programs...

- suffered sever injury to his neck (voice box) and spine (at the neck; reportedly 80% of his spine was severed at the neck) while in transit.

In transit is speculation...We don't know if it was then, or before....That was a pretty rough stone wall he was detained at before transport....

The confirmed non-use of seatbelts to secure the suspect in the back of the police van (paddy wagon) would support your suspicions. Still, we don't know precisely what happened in this case. But what IS clear is that the victim died at the hands of the Baltimore PD from injuries that were likely suffered during an unreported stop while enroute to the police station. The question everyone should be asking (other than why was this young man stopped in the first place) is "What really happened during that stop?"

Yep, and we will find out in due course...But no one should be calling for rushing to judgement before the facts are known, and the people involved have their day in court....I think it is disgusting that this "Mayor" Stephanie Rawlings Blake is so biased in this case, and has mishandled it in such a way as to fan the flames literally, both for the mob, and against her own police force....Anyone that thinks she is interested in truth here is smokin' crack...

"Yes, they want answers, but they want answers in a way that will be protect their ability to get justice for Freddie Gray," Rawlings-Blake said.

Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake on city's pain, resiliency after riots - CBS News

She followed that up with "And that's my focus."

So we know that her bent toward this investigation is NOT toward finding the truth, but slanted in the Sharpton esque meme of 'Justice for _________'!!!! Facts be damned.

This is pathetic, and sad to watch...
 
Back
Top Bottom