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Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:
Neither of us were there, but if the suspects started running as soon as they saw the police, then I can only guess "Stop!" was one of them.



Yep, tragic...Probably would have gotten a warning, or a summons if they'd have just talked with the officers.
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They appear not to have been suspects except for the act of living in a high crime neighborhood and of running away from police. If you hear "stop" do you assume that constitutes a lawful order, personally directed at you, to do so? I understand the officer's frustration with having drugs sales (and the related property/violent crime) occurring but also understand the frustration of everyone living in that neighborhood being subjected to constant police harassment - the nerve of a convicted felon to carry an "illegal" pocket knife in a dangerous neighborhood!
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

WCH said:
Because you create a situation that would normally be considered 'more dangerous'.

I don't believe that most cops set out to kill someone at the start of their workday but, due to the perils of their job, they are prepared to make sure they make it home at night regardless what the criminal thinks.
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As do most (if not all) other residents of that dangerous (high crime) neighborhood. How dangerous is having someone running away from you?
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:
Well of course that's what you'd say. I imagine you see the U.S. incarceration rate 7 times that of France, 5 times that of China etc., and chant "We're Number 1! USA! USA! USA!!"
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You do realize that China execute more people than all countries combined and sentences people to hard labor more times than not? Stats are funny things.

Capital punishment in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:
Sure, he should have just stood there, and volunteered to be arrested on a BS charge with up to a year in jail and a $500 fine. It's one of those BS arrests he was trying to avoid, and you don't want to connect the dots.
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You make out like he didn't have any choice in life but to be a criminal.

Given a choice, do you think he'd rather spend his time in jail or be dead right now? He made the wrong choice.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

ttwtt78640 said:
As do most (if not all) other residents of that dangerous (high crime) neighborhood. How dangerous is having someone running away from you?
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That's the cop's line of thinking or procedure. In their minds, you're are guilty of something [when you run] and must be captured/questioned.

Perhaps they knew this individual.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

WCH said:
That's the cop's line of thinking or procedure. In their minds, you're are guilty of something [when you run] and must be captured/questioned.

Perhaps they knew this individual.
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Perhaps the police decided it was time to take him out. Perhaps he knew [suspected] that too. ;)
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

WCH said:
You do realize that China execute more people than all countries combined and sentences people to hard labor more times than not? Stats are funny things.
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OK, forget China. What's the mitigating stat for France, who somehow runs a developed country with 1/7th the number incarcerated? We're five times the UK. Look at the stats for any country on the planet. We're still #1! USA! USA! USA! USA!
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

WCH said:
We can only guess. 8)
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Exactly, thus the DOJ is pressing for making that into a more educated guess. ;)
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:
Well of course that's what you'd say. I imagine you see the U.S. incarceration rate 7 times that of France, 5 times that of China etc., and chant "We're Number 1! USA! USA! USA!!"
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I see, so if I don't agree with your outlook on the situation, then your argument is to insult me....Way to lose the argument Jasper.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:
Sure, he should have just stood there, and volunteered to be arrested on a BS charge with up to a year in jail and a $500 fine. It's one of those BS arrests he was trying to avoid, and you don't want to connect the dots.
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You don't know that would happen, it is just as likely that if he were doing everything else right, that he would have been detained for a short time, his pocket knife confiscated, and him either sent on his way with a warning, or a ticket.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

ttwtt78640 said:
They appear not to have been suspects except for the act of living in a high crime neighborhood and of running away from police. If you hear "stop" do you assume that constitutes a lawful order, personally directed at you, to do so? I understand the officer's frustration with having drugs sales (and the related property/violent crime) occurring but also understand the frustration of everyone living in that neighborhood being subjected to constant police harassment - the nerve of a convicted felon to carry an "illegal" pocket knife in a dangerous neighborhood!
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Are you actually saying that the law should be circumstantial?
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:
Are you actually saying that the law should be circumstantial?
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The law, or at least its enforcement, is circumstantial.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

ttwtt78640 said:
As do most (if not all) other residents of that dangerous (high crime) neighborhood. How dangerous is having someone running away from you?
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Wait, hold on here....Are you actually saying that you concede it is a "high crime neighborhood" to use your words, and the solution to make it a safer place is to NOT police in the neighborhood? Really?
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:
OK, forget China. What's the mitigating stat for France, who somehow runs a developed country with 1/7th the number incarcerated? We're five times the UK. Look at the stats for any country on the planet. We're still #1! USA! USA! USA! USA!
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Cultural differences are a *****, huh?
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

ttwtt78640 said:
The law, or at least its enforcement, is circumstantial.
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No, the law is clear...The outcome of situations depends on the actions of both parties...ie, person of interest runs, becomes a suspect, at that point what could have been a conversation, turns into an altercation....Now, who forced that issue, the police? or the suspect that ran? I say the suspect.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:
Well of course that's what you'd say. I imagine you see the U.S. incarceration rate 7 times that of France, 5 times that of China etc., and chant "We're Number 1! USA! USA! USA!!"
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So you are saying that there is NO possible way, and that the evidence eliminates all OTHER possibilities, and the only POSSIBLE conclusion beyond any REASONABLE DOUBT is that the police did it? And that they are at fault.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:
Wait, hold on here....Are you actually saying that you concede it is a "high crime neighborhood" to use your words, and the solution to make it a safer place is to NOT police in the neighborhood? Really?
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Policing the neighborhood need not include frequent take (shake?) downs of the usual suspects.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:
No, the law is clear...The outcome of situations depends on the actions of both parties...ie, person of interest runs, becomes a suspect, at that point what could have been a conversation, turns into an altercation....Now, who forced that issue, the police? or the suspect that ran? I say the suspect.
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That is the crux of the matter. What was the police interest, in that person, before they ran? Of the two "suspects" that ran, why did one end up dead?
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:
I see, so if I don't agree with your outlook on the situation, then your argument is to insult me....Way to lose the argument Jasper.
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I wasn't insulting you, just being sarcastic because you didn't address any of the comment except to dismiss it. And I've yet to see any notion that you have a problem with a broken system that does have 12 MILLION arrests per year and jails more and more per capita than any nation on the planet.

I don't understand people who can know how the system can make felons out of people guilty of only petty, non violent crimes, dismiss that process, and dismiss deaths resulting from it by blaming any bad consequence on the person whose main 'crime' is being poor and getting caught up in a broken system. It's largely how we HAVE 7 times the people jailed as France and literally are Number ONE! in that category.

And someone above was talking about the problem is a lack of respect for police. OK, in this case the cops detained a guy for suspicion of running, and charged him with having an illegal knife, 1 year in jail and $500 fine. While he's in custody, he repeatedly says he can't breath, asks for an inhaler, requests medical attention over and over while being transported, all those requests ignored, and he shows up at the police station in a coma that he never emerges from. Even then it takes a half hour to call an ambulance and transport him to the hospital. What about that chain of events builds trust in the community?
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

ttwtt78640 said:
That is the crux of the matter. What was the police interest, in that person, before they ran? Of the two "suspects" that ran, why did one end up dead?
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Maybe they were acting suspiciously, maybe they saw the cops and started to run away, that is enough for a chase to ensue. As for why he ended up dead is for the investigation to determine.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

stonewall50 said:
So you are saying that there is NO possible way, and that the evidence eliminates all OTHER possibilities, and the only POSSIBLE conclusion beyond any REASONABLE DOUBT is that the police did it? And that they are at fault.
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No matter how the injury occurred, what we do know is the guy requested medical attention multiple times and was ignored, showed up in medical crisis, and it still took a half hour to call the ambulance to get him to an ER. There can be no one else at fault for ignoring his pleas for medical attention than the people who had him in custody.
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

CycloneWanderer said:
Cultural differences are a *****, huh?
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I guess, but why is anyone OK with one of our "cultural differences" being a police state?
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:
Maybe they were acting suspiciously, maybe they saw the cops and started to run away, that is enough for a chase to ensue. As for why he ended up dead is for the investigation to determine.
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The court agrees with you but I still do not. Prior to any attempted arrest there should be no resisting of that yet to occur (arrest) event. If one simply sees a police officer and then changes direction then that evasive action alone should not be probable cause or even reasonable suspicion to make an arrest, traffic stop or to conduct a search.

Court: Just Running from the Police is a Crime | The Jacksonville Observer
 
Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:
I wasn't insulting you, just being sarcastic because you didn't address any of the comment except to dismiss it. And I've yet to see any notion that you have a problem with a broken system that does have 12 MILLION arrests per year and jails more and more per capita than any nation on the planet.
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By just addressing the raw number of arrests is rather misleading....You'd have to break it down into convictions.

I don't understand people who can know how the system can make felons out of people guilty of only petty, non violent crimes, dismiss that process, and dismiss deaths resulting from it by blaming any bad consequence on the person whose main 'crime' is being poor and getting caught up in a broken system. It's largely how we HAVE 7 times the people jailed as France and literally are Number ONE! in that category.
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I see, so the person, NOT showing up to court, refusing to pay his fine, and digging himself deeper with every step has NO responsibility when he is ultimately arrested for his ignorance eh? So, should one be able to just ignore the law, or fines if they feel like they can't pay them? Should they just be able to ignore orders to appear in court? You realize you are advocating a break down of the system right? Oh, and your comparison to France is absurd. We have 5 times the population of France.

And someone above was talking about the problem is a lack of respect for police. OK, in this case the cops detained a guy for suspicion of running, and charged him with having an illegal knife, 1 year in jail and $500 fine. While he's in custody, he repeatedly says he can't breath, asks for an inhaler, requests medical attention over and over while being transported, all those requests ignored, and he shows up at the police station in a coma that he never emerges from. Even then it takes a half hour to call an ambulance and transport him to the hospital. What about that chain of events builds trust in the community?
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Yep, that's a problem. If the person under arrest has a medical issue, he or she should be treated....The police entrusted with the detention, and transport of that individual should be accountable. But, I don't know what injecting the crime, jail time, and fine into that has to do with anything....The standard should apply to all.
 
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