Hundreds feared dead after migrant boat capsizes in Mediterranean Sea

Hatuey said:

The Arab Spring was in 2011...

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The seeds were set in 2003 when Bush wrongfully invaded Iraq.

Ahlevah said:

So you're saying Dubya caused millions of Arabs throughout the Middle East to rise up against their oppressors? Wouldn't they have to regard him as some sort of prophet or something? :lol:

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Er yes.. that was the Bush policy in the middle east.. or did you forget Iraq all of a sudden?

If that's true, then why was the French foreign minister publicly pleading for intervention by the U.S. and other major powers? You're drinking the Kool-Aid again, Pete.

France pleads for military intervention as Gaddafi forces attack Libyan rebels - The Washington Post

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Because of the threat to Bengahzi... Before that, countries did not care much.

joG said:

Nobody says that the EU does not have members as do Euroland and Schengenland with a mess of overlapping and sometimes contradictory responsibilities of the various memberships. That does not mean that you can point at a country that refused to join Schengenland for not paying for problems that to a good extent result from that treaty. It is the messed up and arrogantly dilettante wEuropean countries organized the continent that makes one and all members responsible. So yes. It is the EU (and its members).

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For **** sake.. Schengen is INTERNAL! The EEC/EU has always had the policy of each country protects its external borders, but schengen removed internal border controls. This is an external border issue, or have you totally missed that?

And again, you are wrong that the Euro induced recession is not responsible for the stagnating economies' leading to even worse fiscal positions in a number of countries like Italy and Greece who have been forced to cut spending on many things. One of these things has been the Schengenland boarders.

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LOL Euro induced recession.. HAHAHHA now that is hilarious... are you saying the crisis is because of the Euro and not because of the American sub-prime crash? SERIOUSLY?

And Italy has always been at the front line and financing has never been an issue. Only Greece has been an issue, but they regardless of the crisis have kept up their commitment. Blaming the Euro is just utterly lame and false. That is like blaming the strong dollar for the influx of illegals into the US... makes absolutely no sense.

PeteEU said:

For **** sake.. Schengen is INTERNAL! The EEC/EU has always had the policy of each country protects its external borders, but schengen removed internal border controls. This is an external border issue, or have you totally missed that?



LOL Euro induced recession.. HAHAHHA now that is hilarious... are you saying the crisis is because of the Euro and not because of the American sub-prime crash? SERIOUSLY?

And Italy has always been at the front line and financing has never been an issue. Only Greece has been an issue, but they regardless of the crisis have kept up their commitment. Blaming the Euro is just utterly lame and false. That is like blaming the strong dollar for the influx of illegals into the US... makes absolutely no sense.

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You really do not know very much about the functions of state or the EU, do you.
To remind you od what Schengen was about, let me reproduce the main Issues it deals with:

"Key rules adopted within the Schengen framework include:

-removal of checks on persons at the internal borders;
-a common set of rules applying to people crossing the external borders of the EU Member States;
-harmonisation of the conditions of entry and of the rules on visas for short stays;
-enhanced police cooperation (including rights of cross-border surveillance and hot pursuit);
-stronger judicial cooperation through a faster extradition system and transfer of enforcement of criminal judgments;
-establishment and development of the Schengen Information System (SIS)."

It should be quite obvious to you, that such regulation does impact the actions of member countries concerning immigration from outside. That there are a number of further Regulations that do also and sometomes even more is true. But we are only touching the top layer of the Europeans' problems here anyway.

That you do not understand the economics of foreign trade and currencies it a pity in this context as it puts you into directions by misunderstanding, what was said. Also it would help to notice, what was written. Nobody said the immigrants were coming because of the Euro. That was not the issue.

The issue was that out of the weakened position of the economies on the South flank of Europe the societies are less able to justify the expenditures on maintaining orderly boarders and handle the numbers crowding towards the shores. It was a question of the funds available to deal with the problem that led to dismantling the Italian Mare Nostrum program as its costs went from an expected Euros 2 Million to 9,5 Millions a year. This was too expensive just to save the lives along the coasts. Didn't you follow the discussions about that? Now Frontex is running a program with quite a bit less emphasis on saving lives, as we have seen in the last few months. What is it? 1.000 drowned in the last three days? Frontex is an EU creature.

PeteEU said:

The seeds were set in 2003 when Bush wrongfully invaded Iraq.

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Wrongfully? Don't be silly. It was too expensive and the US was not willing to be harsh enough after deposing the dictator, but the thing was perfectly legitimate and even required after Saddam had pushed his refusal to submit to the Security Council too far. Why, even most European governments signed that letter supporting Bush's policy on Saddam.

But you know that. And you know that the Intervention by Putin, Chirac and Schröder made the invasion much more likely of even necessary after a point.

So don't go pointing fingers into puddings you wish were of different taste.

Hatuey said:

The Arab Spring was in 2011...

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There is a persistent delusion in populist circles of Europe that Bush was at fault for all. The EU crowd does not like it, when someone mentions the impacts of their behavior in anything approaching realistic terms.

PeteEU said:

The seeds were set in 2003 when Bush wrongfully invaded Iraq.

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Lol, no they weren't. Many of these countries had a history of uprisings and rebellions long before the invasion of Iraq. Hell, most of the research shows that even the protesters in the AS did not see their demonstrations as being outside the region's traditions of rebellion. The seeds of animosity towards authoritarian leaders were set by them and the neoliberal policies. These neoliberal policies made it impossible for many of these traditionally paternalist governments to fulfil the promises they'd made in the past.

Whatever the reason behind these 'seeds', Bush did not push for any Arab Spring or even so much as envisioned revolutions across the Middle East. Specially not in the countries where it originally started which were countries with stable relationships with the US. So how did he 'set' any seed?

MSNBC said hundreds were locked in down below like the Titanic. Very tragic.

Got to love Merkel.. she has now come out and said that "Northern Europe is now forced to do something".. talk about too little too late..

clownboy said:

YOUR words, and they reveal YOUR inner landscape. I said no such thing. Still didn't answer the question I posed.

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My words, your attitude. Let them drown to discourage the others....

PeteEU said:

Er yes.. that was the Bush policy in the middle east.. or did you forget Iraq all of a sudden?

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That was an invasion, not exactly spontaneous demonstrations calling for the ouster of Saddam. In any case, that happened in 2003. I thought you were talking about the Arab Spring. Regardless, your contention that Little Bush was responsible for the Arab Spring is flattering, but laughable.

Ahlevah said:

That was an invasion, not exactly spontaneous demonstrations calling for the ouster of Saddam. In any case, that happened in 2003. I thought you were talking about the Arab Spring. Regardless, your contention that Little Bush was responsible for the Arab Spring is flattering, but laughable.

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LOL so US policy under Bush in destabilizing dictatorships they did not like, had nothing to do with the Arab Spring..? Seriously? Do you think this crap happens over night?

Allow me to insert a shaft of light amongst the heat.

" ...The peak season for irregular Mediterranean crossings begins in Spring. Nevertheless early indications are alarming. In February, the UNHCR noted 50 deaths in 2015 compared to 12 the previous year; a significant increase. In fact the figures were grossly under-estimated. The scale of the most recent disaster was initially underestimated but as two more dinghies were recovered survivor testimony suggested that around 300 people, including young children, lost their lives in the latest incident. The passengers had left Libya in several small dinghies without food or water. Most were crudely labelled economic migrants, masking their personal stories as nationals from some of the most unstable countries in Africa.

Compared to the same period last year this number presents a dramatic increase. Human Rights Watch, the UNHCR and Amnesty International have all recognised that the replacement of Mare Nostrum will only add to this death toll.

The government has argued that the prospect of rescue encourages migrants to take this particularly dangerous route. The evidence offers a contrast here too. The increasing number of Syrians who are resorting to this route, in addition to Eritreans and Mauritanians who are also fleeing human rights abuses and political insecurity, emphasise that the demand for sanctuary and/or security is far more likely to be a motive. They are aware of the dangers but will risk everything in order to escape the dangers at home. This journey is rarely a choice but is rather a last chance option. Why else would people risk the lives of the most vulnerable family members? ... "

Fact Check: was Italy's flagship immigration project a failure?

PeteEU said:

LOL so US policy under Bush in destabilizing dictatorships they did not like, had nothing to do with the Arab Spring..? Seriously? Do you think this crap happens over night?

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Nothing? No, I didn't say that. But I just think you give him too much credit. I mean, I can just see all of these ISIS militants posting copies of Bush's Second Inaugural on their walls. :lamo These uprisings are rooted more in deep tribal, ethnic, and religious sectarian divisions than any longing for democracy as we understand it.