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Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

X Factor said:
Something I've always wondered is why hunters wear t-shirts depicting living animals. Is it that they imagine how cool it would be to shoot it? Sincerely curious.
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Because we love seeing them. We love hunting them. We love being out there in the woods...

Sure, we like to harvest or kill animals... but that's in many ways incidental to being part of nature.

As I have pointed out many times on this thread... statistically the success rate on killing a big game animal is often quite low..

Elk in my region are around 14% on average. Hunting is much much more than killing.
 
jaeger19 said:
Just to point out.. you aren't "strolling up" to a 3-4 ton animal with a bad temper and the means to crush you. The reason that the shots are that close are two reasons... number one... often the territory they are in dictates that you have to get close to get a good shot through the foliage... and quite frankly, the energy needed to get a hit to the heart or the head and make a clean kill means you have to be up close.
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OK, but you're splitting hairs there. You've hunted wild animals in a lot of contexts, and you know novices getting shots at 20-30 yards mean the 'hunting' is basically nil.
 
Ikari said:
The article I posted clearly states that the sale of elephants is in response to reduced revenue lost by the ban on trophy hunting. And who knows why they went that route, I mean, Zimbabwe is so corrupt it cannot be used as a model of conservationism, right? That's what you said.
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And the Zambia and Botwanan government ministers I quoted clearly stated that trophy hunting has been banned because it has had a detrimental effect on their wildlife numbers.
 
Ahlevah said:
Teddy Roosevelt was a big game hunter. He was also a conservationist:



Guess it was a good thing Teddy wasn't trampled by an elephant.

Anyway, as always, when you look deeper into the subject things tend to get a bit more complicated:
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Well that is interesting. I had no clue.

I guess it makes sense though. Now that bison/buffalo meat is available, the herds are also increasing, just not so much in the wild, but increasing nonetheless, iirc.
 
joG said:
Don't they shoot man killers?

In any event the story would have been better had the hunter been trampled to death by bunnies.
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In Africa everything bites. There was a PH killed by a zebra. Bit on the neck.

These guys are good guys. They actually respect the game. They aren't poachers.
 
flogger said:
And the Zambia and Botwanan government ministers I quoted clearly stated that trophy hunting has been banned because it has had a detrimental effect on their wildlife numbers.
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And blackmarket priced for poachers maybe? The REAL detriment to game is poachers and development of human society in their habitat. Hunters who make money off the game while following the law don't want the game to disappear.
 
jaeger19 said:
Because we love seeing them. We love hunting them. We love being out there in the woods...

Sure, we like to harvest or kill animals... but that's in many ways incidental to being part of nature.

As I have pointed out many times on this thread... statistically the success rate on killing a big game animal is often quite low..

Elk in my region are around 14% on average. Hunting is much much more than killing.
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Not sure I really buy that since you could be out there camping and hiking and still be in nature or whatever. Doesn't matter. Nobody has to justify their affinity for any blood sport to me (although some of the blood sports could never be justified to me). It's just not for me. I see mule deer and quail around where I live all the time. I get a kick out of them and my thought is not how much more I would prefer it if they were dead. Lol.
 
flogger said:
And the Zambia and Botwanan government ministers I quoted clearly stated that trophy hunting has been banned because it has had a detrimental effect on their wildlife numbers.
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But it's corrupt, right? How can you trust it? lol

You're arguments are weak, they are not built on data or statistic, you have not quoted a single peer reviewed scientific paper on the subject. You use a government you admit to be corrupt as an example but then state it's corrupt on counter example to dismiss it. It's nothing more than a bunch of double speak to excuse calls for death against humans for engaging in activities that you do not like.
 
stonewall50 said:
And blackmarket priced for poachers maybe? The REAL detriment to game is poachers and development of human society in their habitat. Hunters who make money off the game while following the law don't want the game to disappear.
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Those governments specifically stated that they banned trophy hunting because of its effects on its wildlife and corruption between hunting companies and government officials abusing the system for personal gain . Illegal poaching is another matter entirely

http://www.wildlifeextra.com/go/world/zambia-hunting.html#cr
 
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Ikari said:
But it's corrupt, right? How can you trust it? lol

You're arguments are weak, they are not built on data or statistic, you have not quoted a single peer reviewed scientific paper on the subject. You use a government you admit to be corrupt as an example but then state it's corrupt on counter example to dismiss it. It's nothing more than a bunch of double speak to excuse calls for death against humans for engaging in activities that you do not like.
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Errr.... Zambia I cited and Zimbabwe you cited are totally different countries :doh:lamo
 
stonewall50 said:
In Africa everything bites. There was a PH killed by a zebra. Bit on the neck.

These guys are good guys. They actually respect the game. They aren't poachers.
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The animals they kill are just as dead though. I'd be a lot more convinced of their altruistic and conservational credentials were they sending their money out there to pay for extra veterinarians and game keepers instead of securing bragging rights at their respective hunting clubs . Pay to help kill the poachers not to add to their rare animal death toll

Hunting Is a Setback to Wildlife Conservation | Earth Island Journal | Earth Island Institute
 
JasperL said:
OK, but you're splitting hairs there. You've hunted wild animals in a lot of contexts, and you know novices getting shots at 20-30 yards mean the 'hunting' is basically nil.
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No.. in the case of Bull elephants.. its not.. That's the point I am making. You can't make the assumption based on distance.. there are so many factors involved.

Plus...I would doubt there are ANY novices hunting elephant... maybe the first and only elephant... but not hunting in general. The area to make a good shot on an elephant is quite small. there is a lot of tissue to punch through and it has to hit a vital organ.. (brain or heart).. or at that distance you are looking at a world of hurt from a pissed off pachyderm.

I can't see a professional hunter guiding a complete novice to hunting on an elephant hunt. even if a newbie wanted to do it. WAY to dangerous. Plus.. being able to not only hit that small target.. but with a large caliber weapon... when three tons of charging death can be on you? Not likely.
 
flogger said:
The animals they kill are just as dead though. I'd be a lot more convinced of their altruistic and conservational credentials were they sending their money out there to pay for extra veterinarians and game keepers instead of securing bragging rights at their respective hunting clubs . Pay to help kill the poachers not to add to their rare animal death toll

Hunting Is a Setback to Wildlife Conservation | Earth Island Journal | Earth Island Institute
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Again,... hunting is a valuable management tool... vet and game keepers don't accomplish that.

Just to point out.. unlike all the articles that have presented to you.. which are based on the science of wildlife management...

The opinion piece that you linked to has no science behind it.
 
jaeger19 said:
Again,... hunting is a valuable management tool... vet and game keepers don't accomplish that.

Just to point out.. unlike all the articles that have presented to you.. which are based on the science of wildlife management...

The opinion piece that you linked to has no science behind it.
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Clearly both the Zambian and Botswanan goverments who introduced trophy hunting bans last year disagree with that argument. Other nations are considering their positions on this issue too
 
X Factor said:
Not sure I really buy that since you could be out there camping and hiking and still be in nature or whatever. Doesn't matter. Nobody has to justify their affinity for any blood sport to me (although some of the blood sports could never be justified to me). It's just not for me. I see mule deer and quail around where I live all the time. I get a kick out of them and my thought is not how much more I would prefer it if they were dead. Lol.
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MMMM have some barbecued quail over rice and you might change your mind...:mrgreen:.
 
flogger said:
Clearly both the Zambian and Botswanan goverments who introduced trophy hunting bans last year disagree with that argument. Other nations are considering their positions on this issue too
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Actually,, Botswana didn't ban hunting... hunting continues on registered game reserves is still allowed..

Only on public lands.. and interestingly.. the science does not support the decision..

According to the latest official figures compiled by the Department of Wildlife and National Parks on 26 animal species countrywide, the animal population in Botswana is generally stable while the elephant population has significantly increased.

The elephant population was estimated at 207,545 with a 297% rise between 1992 and last year.

Chobe National Park and Moremi Game Reserve confirmed the trend, while numbers were also building in Makgadikgadi Pan and Nxai Pan national parks.

Another species enjoying significant growth was the hippo. This species generally tends to be undercounted by aerial surveys and may not yield reliable estimates, Ms Peake said.

There was growth in the numbers of all other species except lechwe, sable, sitatunga, springbok and tsessebe, although these figures "were not statistically significant".

The population number for lechwe declined 59% between 1992 and last year, while springbok and tsessebe declined by 71% and 79% over the same period.
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Outcry over ban on hunting in Botswana
 
jaeger19 said:
Actually,, Botswana didn't ban hunting... hunting continues on registered game reserves is still allowed..

Only on public lands.. and interestingly.. the science does not support the decision..

Outcry over ban on hunting in Botswana
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Well here is the governments official position

No one will be allowed to hunt wildlife in Botswana, come 2014, President Lt Gen. Seretse Khama Ian Khama has announced.

He said wildlife numbers were decreasing at an alarming rate, hence the decision.

Next year will be the last time anyone is allowed to hunt in Botswana and we have realised that if we do not take care of our animals, we will have a huge problem in terms of tourism, President Khama told Sankoyo and Mababe residents last week.

Botswana bans hunting from 2014

The old conservation chestnut is just an excuse used to try and whitewash this morally repugnant hobby

http://www.league.org.uk/~/media/Fi...he-Myth-of-Trophy-Hunting-as-Conservation.pdf
 
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flogger said:
The animals they kill are just as dead though. I'd be a lot more convinced of their altruistic and conservational credentials were they sending their money out there to pay for extra veterinarians and game keepers instead of securing bragging rights at their respective hunting clubs . Pay to help kill the poachers not to add to their rare animal death toll

Hunting Is a Setback to Wildlife Conservation | Earth Island Journal | Earth Island Institute
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I've heard all that garbage before. Let me tell you a little story. Turkeys were dying out here in Florida. Do you know who rebuilt their population? Hunters. Releasing them. Sure we hunt them too. But it was us.

Who culls wild snow goose populations? Hunters.

Who helped rebuild the wetlands up in Canada? Ducks unlimited. A hunting organization.

And do you know what they do in Africa? Read some capstick. He participated in something called culling with elephant herds. You know that practice? Yea. It is sanctioned by the governments there as a "last resort." If you would kill off a few before they overpopulated...you wouldn't have to kill entire herds. And on top of that...you seem to ignore the major factor here: it isn't hunters killing off massive herds. It is government. It is population expansion.

I have no public land to hunt here where I live. There are also few places for wild game to live. Why? Cities.
 
flogger said:
Well here is the governments official position

No one will be allowed to hunt wildlife in Botswana, come 2014, President Lt Gen. Seretse Khama Ian Khama has announced.

He said wildlife numbers were decreasing at an alarming rate, hence the decision.

Next year will be the last time anyone is allowed to hunt in Botswana and we have realised that if we do not take care of our animals, we will have a huge problem in terms of tourism, President Khama told Sankoyo and Mababe residents last week.

Botswana bans hunting from 2014

The old conservation chestnut is just an excuse used to try and whitewash this morally repugnant hobby

http://www.league.org.uk/~/media/Fi...he-Myth-of-Trophy-Hunting-as-Conservation.pdf
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So how are the populations of those wildlife animals doing on managed game reserves vs public land?

We have wildlife management areas here in Florida. Game usually does better there than on public land.
 
flogger said:
Well here is the governments official position

No one will be allowed to hunt wildlife in Botswana, come 2014, President Lt Gen. Seretse Khama Ian Khama has announced.

He said wildlife numbers were decreasing at an alarming rate, hence the decision.

Next year will be the last time anyone is allowed to hunt in Botswana and we have realised that if we do not take care of our animals, we will have a huge problem in terms of tourism, President Khama told Sankoyo and Mababe residents last week.

Botswana bans hunting from 2014

The old conservation chestnut is just an excuse used to try and whitewash this morally repugnant hobby

http://www.league.org.uk/~/media/Fi...he-Myth-of-Trophy-Hunting-as-Conservation.pdf
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I believe once again you are misinformed...

January 23, 2014 Press Release:
HUNTING BAN IN BOTSWANA – MESSAGE FROM PERMANENT SECRETARY of BOTWANA

The Ministry of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism wishes to inform the public about the ban on hunting of wildlife in all controlled hunting areas in Botswana with effect from January 2014. No quotas, licenses or permits will be issued for hunting of Part I and Part II Schedule game animals as listed in the Wildlife Conservation and National Parks Act.

Licenses will continue to be issued for game birds listed in Part III of the same Act subject to conditions to be determined by the Department of Wildlife and National Parks. Hunting in registered game ranches will not be affected by the ban.

The decision to temporarily ban hunting has been necessitated by available information which indicates that several species in the country are showing declines. The causes of the decline are likely due to a combination of factors such as anthropogenic impacts, including illegal offtake and habitat fragmentation or loss.

The suspension of hunting will allow my Ministry to work with all relevant stakeholders in understanding the causes of the decline and where possible, to put in remedial measures to reserve the trend.

My Ministry will continue to monitor wildlife trends using suitable methodologies and regularly update the public on the status of the wildlife resource.

The Ministry of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism would like to thank all members of the public for their cooperation.

Neil Fitt, Permanent Secretary – MEWT
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And again... its not what the science show regarding animal populations in Botswana.
 
jaeger19 said:
I believe once again you are misinformed...
And again... its not what the science show regarding animal populations in Botswana.
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Hey guy you are kidding nobody here. Your disturbing desire to kill such creatures has nothing whatsoever to do with conservation and we both know it. :roll:
 
flogger said:
Hey guy you are kidding nobody here. Your disturbing desire to kill such creatures has nothing whatsoever to do with conservation and we both know it. :roll:
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And your desire is obviously to be against hunting...not conservation.
 
flogger said:
Hey guy you are kidding nobody here. Your disturbing desire to kill such creatures has nothing whatsoever to do with conservation and we both know it. :roll:
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It has a lot to do with conservation and being part of the natural environment and it has to do with enjoyment of a hunting lifestyle. You simply can't get around the fact that conservationists and the conservationist movement which has done much to bring natural populations of game AND non game animals back from the brink of extinction are hunters.

You have emotion.. and I have science and facts on my side..

You kill animals too.. you just take no responsibility for it.
 
flogger said:
I'm certainly against trophy hunting hypocrisy which tries to claim that.
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where is the hypocrisy? Please detail what is hypocritical?

Big game hunters care deeply about the environment... they plant trees, donate money, do all sorts of habitat projects...

They lobby for decrease hunting pressure when the science dictates it. They lobby and have lobbied for taxes on themselves to pay for conservation. They have a code of ethics when it comes to big game hunting.....

and they kill game in accordance with the science of game management to insure a healthy and sustainable animal population

so where is the hypocrisy?
 
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