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Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

Making the kill is the culmination of the hunt. If you can't pull the trigger and make the kill, you're not hunting you're viewing wildlife.The kill is proof that you can steady your nerves, maintain your control, pull the trigger and take a life, so that others can eat of what you kill

So in Africa the kill is therefore the reason you'd hunt given that you can do everything else involved in hunting with photography or you could pull the trigger of a boresighted laser and simulate your kill. The kill is therefore paramount not the hunt correct ?

It is a recognition of our existence as predators, that we live through the demise of lesser creatures.

Why would you still want to be a predator in the 21st century ?

If you can't make the kill when you have the opportunity, then you're not hunting. Not making the kill is like not playing a sport to win.

So you concede its really about sport/fun. In the context of rare and endangered wildlife in Africa do you not see a moral ambiguity in all this given population numbers of virtually all of the major species are but a fraction of what they were even 50 years ago ?

Now, you explain why it is okay for others to kill animals for your pleasure while you judge those who do their own killing

They are killing them for my food theres a huge difference between that and bagging threatened Rhinos for fun in Africa. But of course you knew that already
 
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Now, you explain why it is okay for others to kill animals for your pleasure while you judge those who do their own killing.

I never quite got why people do this.
 
...They are killing them for my food theres a huge difference between that and bagging threatened Rhinos for fun in Africa. But of course you knew that already


Sigh. Talk about dodging.

It has already been established that the animals being shot in Africa are typically eaten by the locals.
There is a species of Rhino in Africa that is not on the Endangered list, and I'm reasonably certain that's what is being hunted.

Never mind Africa. You apparently hate hunting in general, from the sound of it. You make out like it is all about the sick thrill of killing.


I've told you plainly that I hunt for food, yet you still go on about it.

So you have no problem with hunting for food? No issues with hunting deer for the meat, even by 13yo girls? You're fine with that as long as it is for the meat?

Make up your mind.
 
I never quite got why people do this.



I guess they think their hands are clean since they don't do their own killing. To me it just makes it hypocritical.


I have no problem with people who eat meat but don't hunt, as long as they don't act like hypocrites in criticizing hunters and admit it is just squeamishness.
 
They are killing them for my food theres a huge difference between that and bagging threatened Rhinos for fun in Africa. But of course you knew that already

There's a huge difference between poaching, or shooting an animal and leaving it to rot and these trophy hunts which abide by the strict regulations and oversight of game preserves, the meat is consumed, are conducted in ways that are compatible with conservation methods, and pay into conservation programs and facilities. But of course you knew that already.
 
I'm still waiting for your answer. I'm certainly not prepared to engage in your attempted deflection. This isn't about food

Actually it is about food. That's another part you don't get. Hunting animals, except for predators, (and even some of them).. is about food as well. In fact.. as most hunters would agree.. among the worst thing that a hunter can do is waste game. Its why there is such emphasis not only on making a quick clean kill, its also about proper care of the animal after its dead so its meat is consumable. In fact.. waste of game is a serious offense in most jurisdictions.. and rightfully so.
 
It is a simple question.

The answer seems obvious...it's either tradition and/or kill lust.

Both answers are lame and sad, imo.

Nope.. that's not the answer..
 
It is a simple question.

The answer seems obvious...it's either tradition and/or kill lust.

Both answers are lame and sad, imo.

Sadder yet to claim that a human's death was "deserved" based upon nothing more than your perception of a legal activity that provided food for poor tribes people and money for conservation programs.
 
Sigh. Talk about dodging.
It has already been established that the animals being shot in Africa are typically eaten by the locals.

So they really went over to Africa to help feed the locals then not to mount some exotic trophy head on the wall ? Is that now your contention ? The locals have been living there a while so I'm pretty sure they will have learned to kill what they need to eat themselves by now

There is a species of Rhino in Africa that is not on the Endangered list, and I'm reasonably certain that's what is being hunted.

The WWF views the White Rhino as threatened and the Black Rhino as endangered. Given there are only 6% as many Rhinos in Africa as is estimated there were 100 years ago its hard to argue with their contention

Never mind Africa. You apparently hate hunting in general, from the sound of it. You make out like it is all about the sick thrill of killing.

I'm not a fan of hunting per se but its the thrill killers of rare and threatened wildlife in Africa and elsewhere that I really take issue with
 
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So in Africa the kill is therefore the reason you'd hunt given that you can do everything else involved in hunting with photography or you could pull the trigger of a boresighted laser and simulate your kill. The kill is therefore paramount not the hunt correct ?

Nope.. just like the picture is not paramount either. My friend doesn't hunt.. but he loves to go with me.. he understands hunting as well as a non hunter can. When he came out to visit it me.. he was talking about these rare owls that we have out here. I said.. Oh.. I know were to find them. Needless to say.. we ended up in a pit blind in the desert for days watching an active borrow. He did manage to get the picture.. and it ended up the magazine cover for a major magazine.

The upshot is.. we would have had a great time whether he got that picture or not. the picture itself is not the sole reason he was out there.. if that that would be the first thing he would say.. and neither is the shot to kill. Its part of it.. but not paramount... if it was.. why would anyone hunt for seven years before harvesting a deer. I believe at one time.. that was the average time needed for a harvest. Seems like something else must be paramount huh?
 
So they really went over to Africa to help feed the locals then not to mount some exotic trophy head on the wall ? Is that now your contention ? The locals have been living there a while so I'm pretty sure they will have learned to kill what they need to eat themselves by now



The WWF views the White Rhino as threatened and the Black Rhino as endangered. Given their are only 6% as many Rhinos in Africa as is estimated there were 100 years ago its hard to argue with their contention



I'm not a fan of hunting per se but its the thrill killers of rare and threatened wildlife in Africa and elsewhere that I really take issue with

How much money have you donated to conservation efforts for African wildlife?
 
So they really went over to Africa to help feed the locals then not to mount some exotic trophy head on the wall ? Is that now your contention ? The locals have been living there a while so I'm pretty sure they will have learned to kill what they need to eat themselves by now





The WWF views the White Rhino as threatened and the Black Rhino as endangered. Given their are only 6% as many Rhinos in Africa as is estimated there were 100 years ago its hard to argue with their contention

Nobody said they didn't want a trophy. I said the animal is eaten. That seems to be your criteria for morality, is whether the animal is eaten.



The southern white rhino is listed as "Near Threatened" which is only one up from "Low risk" and two short of "endangered", so limited hunting isn't necessarily unreasonable.



I'm not a fan of hunting per se but its the thrill killers of rare and threatened wildlife in Africa and elsewhere that I really take issue with


Yeah we gathered that. You still haven't explained why you get hysterical about the killing part, and make out like it is sick and twisted, yet you have others kill animals for your pleasure and don't find anything wrong with that.


And at this point I'm pretty sure we're not going to ever get a real answer, just more dodges.
 
So they really went over to Africa to help feed the locals then not to mount some exotic trophy head on the wall ? Is that now your contention ? The locals have been living there a while so I'm pretty sure they will have learned to kill what they need to eat themselves by now

No they went over to Africa to have a hunting experience.. to experience Africa at its best. to enjoy watching, scouting, hiking and stalking a rhino... and if possible making a clean kill. If it was all about the head.. they could probably buy a taxidermy mount much much cheaper.. and make some story about it.

The WWF views the White Rhino as threatened and the Black Rhino as endangered. Given their are only 6% as many Rhinos in Africa as is estimated there were 100 years ago its hard to argue with their contention

That's because you are including all rhinos.. including the black rhino. In south Africa.. there has been a healthy population of white rhinos...

I'm not a fan of hunting per se but its the thrill killers of rare and threatened wildlife in Africa and elsewhere that I really take issue with

That's based on irrational emotion. Not objective reasoning and science.
 
The southern white rhino is listed as "Near Threatened" which is only one up from "Low risk" and two short of "endangered", so limited hunting isn't necessarily unreasonable.

So you don't see the continued hunting of a population that is down to 6% of what it was unreasonable ? The moral bankruptcy of that comment pretty much speaks for itself :(

Yeah we gathered that. You still haven't explained why you get hysterical about the killing part, and make out like it is sick and twisted, yet you have others kill animals for your pleasure and don't find anything wrong with that.

I eat meat for food not fun
 
I eat meat for food not fun



Bull****.


You really going to sit there and tell me the last time you went out for steaks with some mates there was no "fun"?


You don't HAVE to eat meat. It's not the only food available. You could be a vegan. You just don't WANT to because you ENJOY eating meat.

Enjoy = pleasure = fun.






Therefore animals die for your "fun"... while you criticize others for much the same, just because you don't do the killing yourself.



That's hypocrisy.
 
So you don't see the continued hunting of a population that is down to 6% of what it was unreasonable ? The moral bankruptcy of that comment pretty much speaks for itself :(

Depends on how the hunts are conducted, which shows the intellectual honesty bankruptcy of your arguments. Controlled and limited hunting can be in lines of conservation and help promote herd health. They're not hunting juveniles, or even reproducing animals. The ones that are often hunted in these controlled environments are the much older animals.

Limited and regulated hunting isn't hunting down the population, it doesn't mean its detrimental to the numbers or the probability of survival of the species.

I eat meat for food not fun

You could easily just eat a large variety of beans and avoid meat all together.
 
Therefore animals die for your "fun"... while you criticize others for much the same, just because you don't do the killing yourself.
That's hypocrisy.

No the hypocrisy here is your attempted conflation of the killing of domestic animals bred for consumption with the killing of rare and endangered animals for fun. Indulge that cynical apologism all you like it but it won't ever make such killing morally acceptable. Most will quite rightly condemn it
 
No the hypocrisy here is your attempted conflation of the killing of domestic animals bred for consumption with the killing of rare and endangered animals for fun. Indulge that cynical apologism all you like it but it won't ever make such killing morally acceptable.


No sir, the hypocrisy here is you're fine with killing animals as long as it doesn't offend your delicate sensibilities based on emotionalism and not facts.
 
No sir, the hypocrisy here is you're fine with killing animals as long as it doesn't offend your delicate sensibilities based on emotionalism and not facts.

I'm fine with not killing rare or endangered animals for fun yes :thumbs:
 
I'm fine with not killing rare or endangered animals for fun yes :thumbs:


Those are some mobile goal posts aren't they? Earlier on you certainly sounded like you had issues with hunting period, now you want to make it about endangered animals.


Already told you the animals in question are not on the endangered list under that classification, but like all the other facts that have been put forward none of that makes a difference to you, because it is all emotion.


Well go have another steak someone else killed for and pat yourself on the back.
 
I'm fine with not killing rare or endangered animals for fun yes :thumbs:

That's good, cause no one is forcing you.

BTW, how much do you contribute to conservation of African wildlife?
 
Those are some mobile goal posts aren't they? Earlier on you certainly sounded like you had issues with hunting period, now you want to make it about endangered animals.

Those animals have been my primary focus throughout this thread

Already told you the animals in question are not on the endangered list under that classification, but like all the other facts that have been put forward none of that makes a difference to you, because it is all emotion.
No that one was all maths actually

Well go have another steak someone else killed for and pat yourself on the back.

Yes because there will certainly be no Rhino on my plate nor will there ever
 
That's good, cause no one is forcing you.

BTW, how much do you contribute to conservation of African wildlife?

Well I've been on a couple of fairly expensive Safari Holidays in Kenya so I suspect my tourist coin has contributed in some small way

What do you contribute ?
 
Well I've been on a couple of fairly expensive Safari Holidays in Kenya so I suspect my tourist coin has contributed in some small way

What do you contribute ?

You suspect your tourist coin, huh? So these hunters, spending many 10's of thousands of dollars have contributed FAR more to the conservation of African wildlife than you'll ever hope to in your life. Damn those immoral bastards! Trying to maintain sustainable herd numbers while you have suspected some of your tourist coin "helped". Why that suspected coin and your internet warrior posts here must make you the superior conversationalist. You know, compared to those who have helped feed poor people in Africa and paying 10's of thousands of dollars into preserves and conservation facilities.
 
You suspect your tourist coin, huh? So these hunters, spending many 10's of thousands of dollars have contributed FAR more to the conservation of African wildlife than you'll ever hope to in your life. Damn those immoral bastards! Trying to maintain sustainable herd numbers while you have suspected some of your tourist coin "helped". Why that suspected coin and your internet warrior posts here must make you the superior conversationalist. You know, compared to those who have helped feed poor people in Africa and paying 10's of thousands of dollars into preserves and conservation facilities.

So let them send their money and spare the animals

You didn't answer me . What do you contribute ?
 
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