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Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

TurtleDude said:
you claim they are nearly as smart as we are and you are telling ME to become educated. how much time have you actually spent in the AFrican Bush around elephants?
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I have read several books about them. You are talking about them like they are just some animal. They are special. Elephants, dolphins, chimps, bonobos, orangutans and us humans are to the best of our knowledge the only self aware animals on earth, and of those, only elephants and us know they will die some day. When I would go out squirrel or deer hunting as a kid, I could be pretty damn confident that the animals we shot did not mourn their dead, experience all the same emotions we do, empathize with others, or were self aware.
 
TurtleDude said:
that's not the issue. the issue is buttinskis from America trying to tell other countries how to act. Your opinion has no merit over there. Its like gun banners from England whining about our rights concerning guns.

and legal hunting isn't the problem

did you actually read the article you quoted

African elephants could be extinct in the wild within a few decades, experts have warned at a major conservation summit in Botswana that has highlighted an alarming decline in numbers due to poaching for ivory.
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Oh wow, now your suddenly concerned about America's interfering FP, lol.
 
Montecresto said:
Oh wow, now your suddenly concerned about America's interfering FP, lol.
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actually having hunted in Kenya I suspect I know far more about this subject than you do. and yes, i find it interesting that your argument is so pathetic and you weren't even able to understand the very article you cited
 
Montecresto said:
Elephants are endangered!
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which is exactly why we need proper and measured conservation measures taken to ensure they survive....culling herds is a proven effective method of ensuring the health and productivity of the herd... that's just, like, science, man.

if you are of the opinion that hunting these male animals has a negative effect... that's been measured too.
trophy hunting takes between 2 and 5% of the male population of a herd, which has been studied and shown to have no negative effect on heard growth or health.
especially considering the mature bulls that are most prized no longer add to the herd in terms of growth or health.

its fine to have feeling about the animals, but don't let those feeling get in the way of proper herd management.

herd management isn't the only benefit to trophy hunting... there are plenty of benefits.
trophy hunting provide a great financial incentive to local economies.. it provides funding for game preserves, it feeds local villages,.. and , in some case, it directly causes the reintroduction of animals into an ecosytem.. such as the black wildebeests and cape mountain zebra into south africa.



take on the real problems... reckless hunters and poachers..... they screw up everything.
we should be able to hunt poachers as well as elephants... and even pose for pictures with them :)
 
TurtleDude said:
actually having hunted in Kenya I suspect I know far more about this subject than you do. and yes, i find it interesting that your argument is so pathetic and you weren't even able to understand the very article you cited
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And your ignoring my mocking of your position, or maybe it escapes you. A Kenyan hunter and a part of the problem. No wonder you're here defending this crime.
 
Thrilla said:
which is exactly why we need proper and measured conservation measures taken to ensure they survive....culling herds is a proven effective method of ensuring the health and productivity of the herd... that's just, like, science, man.

if you are of the opinion that hunting these male animals has a negative effect... that's been measured too.
trophy hunting takes between 2 and 5% of the male population of a herd, which has been studied and shown to have no negative effect on heard growth or health.
especially considering the mature bulls that are most prized no longer add to the herd in terms of growth or health.

its fine to have feeling about the animals, but don't let those feeling get in the way of proper herd management.

herd management isn't the only benefit to trophy hunting... there are plenty of benefits.
trophy hunting provide a great financial incentive to local economies.. it provides funding for game preserves, it feeds local villages,.. and , in some case, it directly causes the reintroduction of animals into an ecosytem.. such as the black wildebeests and cape mountain zebra into south africa.



take on the real problems... reckless hunters and poachers..... they screw up everything.
we should be able to hunt poachers as well as elephants... and even pose for pictures with them :)
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Yeah, I heard you the first time dude, and that's debatable.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Does a prairie dog mourn its dead? Is a prairie dog capable of empathy and every single emotion we human's experience? As I stated earlier, I grew up hunting, damn near everyone in my family hunts, but killing a creature that is nearly as smart as we are, that deeply mourns its dead, and that experiences every single emotion that we experience just aint right. Its wrong. Its not comparable to killing prairie dogs, or whitetail deer, or rabbits, or squirrel or any of the animals we hunt over here.
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You might have a different opinion if you're a subsistence farmer making less then a dollar a day and the damn thing is uprooting your crops again.

The moralism of killing creatures "almost as smart as us" doesn't move me, dogs mourn their own too, and they're on the menu as well most places outside of Europe and North America
 
EMNofSeattle said:
You might have a different opinion if you're a subsistence farmer making less then a dollar a day and the damn thing is uprooting your crops again.

The moralism of killing creatures "almost as smart as us" doesn't move me, dogs mourn their own too, and they're on the menu as well most places outside of Europe and North America
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a subsistence farmer not only will see an elephant as a pest, but he probably know he can earn about 3 grand in US dollars for taking out that bull that's tearing up his crops...it's a double incentive.
 
Montecresto said:
And your ignoring my mocking of your position, or maybe it escapes you. A Kenyan hunter and a part of the problem. No wonder you're here defending this crime.
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crime-psychobabble much? its not a crime just because a left wing american thinks it is

You can mock me all you want-I just laugh at Bambistas who are clueless about other countries and their natural resources
 
Thrilla said:
which is exactly why we need proper and measured conservation measures taken to ensure they survive....culling herds is a proven effective method of ensuring the health and productivity of the herd... that's just, like, science, man.

if you are of the opinion that hunting these male animals has a negative effect... that's been measured too.
trophy hunting takes between 2 and 5% of the male population of a herd, which has been studied and shown to have no negative effect on heard growth or health.
especially considering the mature bulls that are most prized no longer add to the herd in terms of growth or health.

its fine to have feeling about the animals, but don't let those feeling get in the way of proper herd management.

herd management isn't the only benefit to trophy hunting... there are plenty of benefits.
trophy hunting provide a great financial incentive to local economies.. it provides funding for game preserves, it feeds local villages,.. and , in some case, it directly causes the reintroduction of animals into an ecosytem.. such as the black wildebeests and cape mountain zebra into south africa.



take on the real problems... reckless hunters and poachers..... they screw up everything.
we should be able to hunt poachers as well as elephants... and even pose for pictures with them :)
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anti hunters are much like anti gun extremists, they cannot tell the difference between legitimate licensed hunters and poachers just like gun haters lump honest gun owners with gangsters. that is because their hatred is for the act of HUNTING not whether its done legally and properly or illegally and surreptitiously. His own article said the threat to elephants was POACHING and he posted that as an attack on lawful hunting which proves to me

he's against hunting period
 
Thrilla said:
it's only "debatable" to those whom ignore science.
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There's all sorts of science. And this subject is debated routinely. There is no consensus and it will continue to be a point of contention. It's not all wrapped up just because you think shooting elephants is smart.
 
TurtleDude said:
anti hunters are much like anti gun extremists, they cannot tell the difference between legitimate licensed hunters and poachers just like gun haters lump honest gun owners with gangsters. that is because their hatred is for the act of HUNTING not whether its done legally and properly or illegally and surreptitiously. His own article said the threat to elephants was POACHING and he posted that as an attack on lawful hunting which proves to me

he's against hunting period
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Personally I go to the deer woods and hang at camp. I shoot lots of animals on my property that cause various harm to my ranch and livestock. But I don't travel to Kenya to shoot elephants. That's stupid.
 
Thrilla said:
it's only "debatable" to those whom ignore science.
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Yep, look at the success of conservation everywhere, the Pittman Robertson act is why the whitetail deer and wood duck are not extinct
 
EMNofSeattle said:
You might have a different opinion if you're a subsistence farmer making less then a dollar a day and the damn thing is uprooting your crops again.

The moralism of killing creatures "almost as smart as us" doesn't move me, dogs mourn their own too, and they're on the menu as well most places outside of Europe and North America
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THough he is totally nuts on 99% of the issues-loon bird Lyndon LaRouche (who came to Yale in 1980 as part of the Yale Political Union (I was an officer-chair of the liberal party-yep the Liberal party) effort to get every candidate on the CT ticket to appear, said that environmental extremism is usually the province of rich spoiled urbanites (I cannot recall if "yuppie" was in use back then) because they want to deny the poor the value of natural resources so they can have pristine playgrounds to backpack and canoe in. Environmentalists would rather have loggers starve so they can see a couple more spotted owls on their back packing trips.

In this rare instance, he is right about the anti hunting Americans
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Yep, look at the success of conservation everywhere, the Pittman Robertson act is why the whitetail deer and wood duck are not extinct
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Big game hunters and those who buy guns and ammo have done far more for American wildlife than all the animal "rights" groups combined.
 
Montecresto said:
Personally I go to the deer woods and hang at camp. I shoot lots of animals on my property that cause various harm to my ranch and livestock. But I don't travel to Kenya to shoot elephants. That's stupid.
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I don't either-I never hunted elephants because I don't shoot stuff I don't eat unless its woodchucks digging up my horse barn or coyotes killing my ducks or cats or starlings crapping on my roof. But you obviously are unable to tell the difference between poachers and licensed hunters since that article you posted is about POACHING and what professional hunters do is LICENSED

and what you think is stupid really doesn't matter to me. I at least am smart enough to understand that posting an article about poaching is a worthless authority to attack legal hunting. but then again I read it and I understand the difference. I have serious doubts you did both
 
Montecresto said:
There's all sorts of science. And this subject is debated routinely. There is no consensus and it will continue to be a point of contention. It's not all wrapped up just because you think shooting elephants is smart.
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umm,the science has been in for decades and decades...it works and there's no getting around that.

listen, coming to a science fight armed with tears and emotions doesn't mean it's an actual debate...it's not.
sometimes it sucks when our emotions get in the way of doing the right thing, but we're humans, and that's how we roll sometimes...

again, focus on the folks who do damage... poachers.
 
TurtleDude said:
THough he is totally nuts on 99% of the issues-loon bird Lyndon LaRouche (who came to Yale in 1980 as part of the Yale Political Union (I was an officer-chair of the liberal party-yep the Liberal party) effort to get every candidate on the CT ticket to appear, said that environmental extremism is usually the province of rich spoiled urbanites (I cannot recall if "yuppie" was in use back then) because they want to deny the poor the value of natural resources so they can have pristine playgrounds to backpack and canoe in. Environmentalists would rather have loggers starve so they can see a couple more spotted owls on their back packing trips.

In this rare instance, he is right about the anti hunting Americans
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That's why I can't get comfortable in the Democratic Party, out on Washington states Olympic Peninsula which by the way is the most perfect environment on planetary for forestry, there is a county, call Grays Harbor County which is one of the most consistently Democratic counties in the country, but Democrats in Grays Harbor County are not the same as Democrats and much of the rest of the country, they own guns and working blue-collar occupations, and see when this environmental extreme is on that shutdown the walking happened it basically caused the crash in the towns in Grays Harbor County because a lot of people were unemployed and less temperament less timber royalties which meant less money for schools, etc etc etc

See I would be willing to identify as a Democrat, in the context of Democrats who lived in small towns in the Pacific Northwest maybe 30 years ago, and I Chynna make a distinction between rural Democrats and urban Democrats, I can't stand urban Democrats I have just about as much disdain for them as I do Republicans I identify more in the rural Democrat column
 
TurtleDude said:
Big game hunters and those who buy guns and ammo have done far more for American wildlife than all the animal "rights" groups combined.
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absolutely...without a doubt.

and we should give big kudos to the african governments who are sending out Rangers to hunt poachers.... those dudes are literally at war.
 
TurtleDude said:
Big game hunters and those who buy guns and ammo have done far more for American wildlife than all the animal "rights" groups combined.
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The other thing, is this guy seems to have a huge disdain of trophy hunters and animalistic sense I can see why everyone might have a problem with big game trophy hunters, but in a practical sense they are actually good for the herd, trophy hunters want the big head with the big tusks on it, so they will be more inclined to shoot an older elephant who is sickly a nearing death who is lived to spread his jeans to many generations, then to shoot a younger elephant as a hunter for meat would. So tropia elephants have probably already procreated multiple times and they're becoming more of a burden than an asset for their herds, it's like pruning dead branches off of a tree, it doesn't kill the tree to remove deadwood from it helps it
 
TurtleDude said:
Big game hunters and those who buy guns and ammo have done far more for American wildlife than all the animal "rights" groups combined.
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I've never hunted in my life, hunting is a sport never appealed to me, and I just am not interested in it but I fully support the right of people who do like to hunt to hunt.

I just don't like killing animals, no I have done it I've slaughter chickens so when I do that all the time, and I have also shot raccoons that were attacking my chickens, but I don't enjoy doing it, I see it as a nessecary chore.

Yes I know where the meat I eat comes from, and I am more than willing to pay someone else to deal with killing in packing meat for me, hunting is a necessity, and it for me it's just not recreation so I don't do it
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't either-I never hunted elephants because I don't shoot stuff I don't eat unless its woodchucks digging up my horse barn or coyotes killing my ducks or cats or starlings crapping on my roof. But you obviously are unable to tell the difference between poachers and licensed hunters since that article you posted is about POACHING and what professional hunters do is LICENSED

and what you think is stupid really doesn't matter to me. I at least am smart enough to understand that posting an article about poaching is a worthless authority to attack legal hunting. but then again I read it and I understand the difference. I have serious doubts you did both
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I think I've told you repeatedly now that I think hunting the endangered elephant should be illegal, they shouldn't be hunted for sport. I've never talked about poaching, that's already illegal.
 
Ikari said:
Those are the breaks, indeed, but it's still as I stated. Feeling noting for the loss of human life is a bit sick, IMO.
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You're being a bit righteous IMO. I'm not cheering his death but I don't lament it either. It's called non-attachment. You engage in a high risk sport and you could die. I don't care to partake in the veneration of some human who I don't even know and have zero loyalty toward.

It just also so happens that I find trophy elephant hunting to be outdated and immoral, regardless if it's legal or not. The ivory trade is fueled by selfish morons who are part of the era that believes in the prestige of ivory ownership. Zero respect for that, and one less hunter on planet earth is one more protection for the elephants who are by most measure quite sentient and did not ask to be attacked. If a rape victim managed to kill their attacker I wouldn't shed a tear over that either.

So yeah, nitpick over how immoral we all are for not getting down on our knees and balling because some old fogey hunter finally got his karmic reward for all the pain he has caused wild animals. I would not mourn whalers, Alaskan fishermen, or anyone else either. People's choices lead to consequences and that's not my problem.

But I guess whatever makes you feel like the homo superior. :shrug:
 
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