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Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

MTAtech said:
From the CIA website:

Literacy rate:

efinition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 99.8%
male: 99.8%
female: 99.8% (2012 est.)

That's the highest in the Caribbean.

Cubans also are entitled to free universal health care.

But let's face it, the only reason the right-wing doesn't want to normalize relations is because Obama is doing it. The embargo against Cuba has been counterproductive in achieving a more fair and democratic government. Without the embargo, American consumers will have access to Cuban agricultural products and be able to travel there. With extra income, Cubans will desire a free-market economy.
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INB4 cherry picked examples of healthcare in cuba. Cuba's life expectancy is 79 years, cuba has a very low infant mortality rate.. Yes, cuba isn't perfect, but It's ridiculous to say castro wasn't interested in helping people.
 
MTAtech said:
From the CIA website:

Literacy rate:

efinition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 99.8%
male: 99.8%
female: 99.8% (2012 est.)

That's the highest in the Caribbean.

Cubans also are entitled to free universal health care.

But let's face it, the only reason the right-wing doesn't want to normalize relations is because Obama is doing it. The embargo against Cuba has been counterproductive in achieving a more fair and democratic government. Without the embargo, American consumers will have access to Cuban agricultural products and be able to travel there. With extra income, Cubans will desire a free-market economy.
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Yeah sure.....those Democrats that all spoke out about it went and became Republicans, Right? :roll:


Menendez said. "Trading Mr. Gross for three convicted criminals sets an extremely dangerous precedent. It invites dictatorial and rogue regimes to use Americans serving overseas as bargaining chips."

Reps. Chris Smith (R-4th Dist.) and Albio Sires (D-8th Dist.) have introduced legislation named for Foerster that would require the executive branch to tell Congress what the U.S. is doing to extradite fugitives from Cuba and other countries. “Rather than bringing the Cuban people closer to democracy and freedom, by capitulating to the Castro brothers, the administration allows them to strengthen their grip on the Cuban people," said Rep. Chris Smith (R-4th Dist.). "Whatever joy we feel at the release of Alan Gross is tempered by the sadness that our president is enabling tyranny.” And Rep. Bill Pascrell Jr. (D-9th Dist.) said he would "insist that any opening of relations comes side-by-side with an opening of the Cuban government's political system from totalitarianism to one that respects democracy, human rights, and personal freedoms.".....snip~
 
Dovkan said:
INB4 cherry picked examples of healthcare in cuba. Cuba's life expectancy is 79 years, cuba has a very low infant mortality rate.. Yes, cuba isn't perfect, but It's ridiculous to say castro wasn't interested in helping people.
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people are dirt poor and the communist regime only survives on capitalist tourist dollars and patron countries subsidizing it.

Cubans are paid less than $50 a month, it's survival all these years was due to the USSR subsidizing it, and it know to survive it must legalize private business, and private property, which it is slowly doing.

It's a failed communist state no matter how many doctores they produce and it runs at a net loss and in debt to it's patron countries.
 
eohrnberger said:
"the cancer that is Gitmo"

I've long held that Gitmo is an imperfect solution for an imperfect world, and is the best of available options for these enemy combatants, which, if I recall, was a term that had to be created to best describe the ardent Militant Islamic Fundamentalists which are being held there.

What would be the better solution that you'd propose?

We know that just turning these detainees lose isn't the best, as there's a recidivism rate of around 30% or more (returning to the battle field to kill some more)

We know that turning these detainees over to their country of origin isn't an option, as these countries don't want them and / or can't reliable incarcerate them (end up returning to the fight).

We know that turning these detainees over to the the country that they were apprehended in isn't an option, as these countries don't want them and / or can't reliable incarcerate them (end up returning to the fight).

We know that turning them over to CIA black sites isn't an option, as this comes with a wealth of legally questionable and morally questionable issues.

We know that trying them in US criminal courts isn't a realistic or viable option due to cost, time, resources required, and it just turns into a show trial with the usual media conflagration, and is probably inappropriate for the situation, being more a military matter rather than a criminal matter, and why should the US tax payer be burdened with the expense of keeping them in such federal facilities? And to top that off, why would we want these radicals to spread their radicalism throughout the US prison population? Essentially infecting those that they are responsible with an even greater anti social and dangerous ideas?

So what do you propose? What's your solution for Gitmo?

I still see Gitmo as an imperfect solution for an imperfect world, and is the best of available options for these enemy combatants.
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Congress still has 45 days to approve if Cuba can be taken off the list. For some reason many think this is just the Right, that doesn't want to see the Embargo lifted yet. Seems there several Democrats that are in on it too.



Washington (CNN)—The State Department has sent a recommendation to the White House that Cuba be removed from the State Sponsors of Terrorism List, paving the way for the White House to announce its intent to de-list Cuba as early as Thursday, two administration officials tell CNN.

In making the recommendation, the State Department has certified Cuba has not provided support to terrorist groups within the last 6 months. The White House has made clear it wanted to make the announcement before Obama attends the Summit of the Americas later this week with Cuban leader Raul Castro, and ordered the State Department to speed up the process.

Congress has 45 days from the announcement to vote to block the President's action with a vote on a joint resolution disapproving the de-listing......snip~



State Dept. recommends removing Cuba from terrorism list - CNN.com

http://www.debatepolitics.com/latin...mmit-shake-hands-amid-u-s-cuba-detente-2.html
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
people are dirt poor and the communist regime only survives on capitalist tourist dollars.

Cubans are paid less than $50 a month, it's survival all these years was due to the USSR subsidizing it, and it know to survive it must legalize private business, and private property, which it is slowly doing.

It's a failed communist state no matter how many doctores they produce and it runs at a net loss and in debt to it's patron countries.
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Cubans receive cheap housing, transportation, healthcare, food subsidies.. They actually did survive after the "special period" (When the USSR collapsed") and certainly have to deal with constant pressure. Cuba's GDP has been fluctuating, and appears to be recovering. Yes, they may make less then $50 a month, which is deplorable, but it's hilarious to say Castro didn't care about his people.
 
MMC said:
That's what the Policy of Defense Study does.....
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Cool good for them. No one is arguing about what they do.

no where do they cite anything about Cuba being taken on or off the Terrorism list.
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What? Isnt that the whole point of the article?...

Yes its cool they have been around sometime.
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I know. Thanks for pointing out the obvious and pointless.
Cuba has not abandoned its support for terrorists groups and states.
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Yes it has.
Moreover they also do not extradite.
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Neither does the US. US is harboring several Cuban terrorists...
Luis Posada Carriles ring a bell? Guy that planted a bomb on a Cuban airliner killing 73 Cuban civilians.. Know of him?
No not one source......so again you are wrong.
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What are you trying to say now?

This article was originally posted as part of the Cuba Transition Project
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. Tagged with → Cuba • Hezbollah • Iran • Venezuela .....snip~ <<<<< links to all sorts of Articles. Each one!
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naaa. Its literally the exact same article, with again only one source cited, which is the same one.
Well, you always seem to be whining over Right leaning sources. Even when they are being Correct.
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Not whining. Just pointing out how your source is mostly baseless claims, and then they uphold claims that arent even terroristic..
•Cuba directly and through Venezuela continues to provide intelligence to Hamas and Hezbollah.
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Another claim. Got a source?

•Two Arab Shiites, Ghazi Nasr Al din and Fawzi Kanaan have set-up shop in Caracas, Venezuela under the protection of the Venezuelan government. Working in coordination with the Cuban government, both are active in promoting Hezbollah and Iranian targets in South America and against the U.S. They fundraise for Hezbollah; facilitate travel for Hezbollah activists to Venezuela and through Venezuela to other countries. This is all part of the strategic alliance between Venezuela, Cuba and Iran. There are also reports that they have smuggled narcotics and terrorists to the U.S. through Mexico and arms and explosives under Iranian diplomatic cover.
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Again. Not arguing that they are not in Venezuela, but how does this tie into Cuba. The only person who is making the claim that these two individuals are tied in with Cuban assistance is (as no surprise) the author Jaime Suchlicki. So again, I will have to ask is there any actual evidence that shows they are connected or is it just claims?
•Current and former members of Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA), a Basque terrorist organization continue to reside in Cuba. While some of these terrorists are on the island as part of an accord between the Cuban and Spanish governments, others are hiding in Cuba, fugitives of Spanish justice......snip~
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"Reports continued to indicate that Cuba's ties to 14 ETA have become more distant, and that about eight of the two dozen ETA members in Cuba were relocated with the cooperation of the Spanish government. " - See more at: Cuba on the Terrorist List Again in 2013 - Latin America Working Group

Again, if this makes Cuba a terrorist organization because they have these individuals on the island, then the US better adds itself to its own list harboring terrorists as well... But at least the Cuban government has been in contact with Spain about the ETA members and negotiations.
Center for Security Policy | Cuba?s Support for Terrorism and the Venezuela-Iran Nexus
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Lets me help you out a little bit, "There was no indication that the Cuban government provided weapons or paramilitary training to terrorist groups." http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/crt/2013/224826.htm

Thing is you just can't seem to figure out that being an ally of Iran......comes with all those benefits from the Iranians. Which all know Iran is State sponsor of terrorism.
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So guilt by association essentially? If your an ally of Iran you are a state sponsor of terrorism?
 
Dovkan said:
Cubans receive cheap housing, transportation, healthcare, food subsidies.. They actually did survive after the "special period" (When the USSR collapsed") and certainly have to deal with constant pressure. Cuba's GDP has been fluctuating, and appears to be recovering. Yes, they may make less then $50 a month, which is deplorable, but it's hilarious to say Castro didn't care about his people.
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Didnt say they didnt care, I'm just pointing out the horrible society it is. and it survived on venezualan money and tourism.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Didnt say they didnt care, I'm just pointing out the horrible society it is. and it survived on venezualan money and tourism.
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It's not as bad as it's made out to be, that's all I'm saying. Oh, Venezuela? Not to bad either, Hugo actually made dramatic improvements.
 
MMC said:
Even if they closed down the Prison.....the Military base isn't going anywhere.

Perhaps some other countries that are humanitarian like.....would consider taking the terrorists. Whats left of them.....off of our hands. Then we can use the safeguard soap going forward.
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and there again we have a moral issue.

By what right does the US maintain that base?

The Cuban government has asked them to leave, refuses payment to underscore that point, so how do you justify it with one of the largest Naval Air Stations 90 miles and 7 minutes away?

The US attitude toward Cuba is one of a belligerent state.
 
eohrnberger said:
"the cancer that is Gitmo"

I've long held that Gitmo is an imperfect solution for an imperfect world, and is the best of available options for these enemy combatants, which, if I recall, was a term that had to be created to best describe the ardent Militant Islamic Fundamentalists which are being held there.

What would be the better solution that you'd propose?

We know that just turning these detainees lose isn't the best, as there's a recidivism rate of around 30% or more (returning to the battle field to kill some more)

We know that turning these detainees over to their country of origin isn't an option, as these countries don't want them and / or can't reliable incarcerate them (end up returning to the fight).

We know that turning these detainees over to the the country that they were apprehended in isn't an option, as these countries don't want them and / or can't reliable incarcerate them (end up returning to the fight).

We know that turning them over to CIA black sites isn't an option, as this comes with a wealth of legally questionable and morally questionable issues.

We know that trying them in US criminal courts isn't a realistic or viable option due to cost, time, resources required, and it just turns into a show trial with the usual media conflagration, and is probably inappropriate for the situation, being more a military matter rather than a criminal matter, and why should the US tax payer be burdened with the expense of keeping them in such federal facilities? And to top that off, why would we want these radicals to spread their radicalism throughout the US prison population? Essentially infecting those that they are responsible with an even greater anti social and dangerous ideas?

So what do you propose? What's your solution for Gitmo?

I still see Gitmo as an imperfect solution for an imperfect world, and is the best of available options for these enemy combatants.
Click to expand...



Hypocrisy.

The United States is founded on the rule of law, fought and fought hard to see that Nazi's were tried fairly and has lectured the world, including Cuba on civil rights while violating the civil rights of foreigners often based on erroneous hear say. Canada's own experience is Mahar Arar.

if the US wants to lecture anyone then bring the evidence, at least a tribunal so that justice can be seen to be done. You have been lied to repeatedly from "you can keep your plan" to spying and over the years secret wars, and yet by mentioning "terrorist" you abandon your own constitution, imprison people without examinable evidence, access to information, access to counsel, abject torture and hold without independent examination of the "evidence" apparently for life. Despite all these lies, the American public trusts the lies of the CIA who covered up Benghazi to be truthful about what's going on, don't worry about the CIA making mistakes.

How do we know that after all these years they will return to the fight? Besides, "the fight" is now at least four times larger than it was six years ago, so how is Gitmo helping?

That isn't an imperfect solution, that is a crime.

In 911 you surrendered your own freedom and values, I say the terrorists won by destroying democracy in America.
 
Roadvirus said:
And Obama continues his mission of ass-kissing dictators all over the globe!
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AMEN, he could not care less about any beneficial Foreign Policy, a narcissistic a$$ like Obama just wants people to think he is nifty.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Cool good for them. No one is arguing about what they do.

What are you trying to say now? naaa. Its literally the exact same article, with again only one source cited, which is the same one. Another claim. Got a source?

Again. Not arguing that they are not in Venezuela, but how does this tie into Cuba. The only person who is making the claim that these two individuals are tied in with Cuban assistance is (as no surprise) the author Jaime Suchlicki. So again, I will have to ask is there any actual evidence that shows they are connected or is it just claims?

Lets me help you out a little bit, "There was no indication that the Cuban government provided weapons or paramilitary training to terrorist groups." http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/crt/2013/224826.htm
 So guilt by association essentially? If your an ally of Iran you are a state sponsor of terrorism?
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Yes those were all links and no they didn't go to the same article. Each Page for those listed are articles on Iran. Venezuela, Cuba.....and Hezbollah. Of course you would have known that if you would have checked them out.

Again they would not be putting this out if they didn't have the info. Which much of it was known already.

Here let me help you out without Revisionist history.



Hezbollah supporters living in the U.S. also sent remittances back to Lebanon to fund Hezbollah activities. For example, in Charlotte, NC Hezbollah support networks organized regular parlor meetings held in members' homes where a collection basket was passed around after watching Hezbollah propaganda videos, usually produced by al-Manar. (58)

Hezbollah activities in Latin America, however, are by no means limited to the triborder area. Chilean officials have identified several import-export companies, primarily located in free trade zones such as the Iquique Free Trade Zone (ZOFRI) in northern Chile, that are suspected as serving as either front organizations or shell companies for Hezbollah. These include Kalmiar Ltd, Bahamas Ltd., Las Vegas Nevada Ltd., San Francisco Ltd., Saleh Trading Ltd., Frankfourt Ltd., Guarany Ltd., Teen Chile Ltd., and Lucky Crown Ltd. (87)


Hezbollah members in Venezuela -- centered within the large Lebanese expatriate community on Margarita Island -- helped several members of the Hezbollah cell in Charlotte, North Carolina infiltrate into the United States through Venezuela in 1992. (91) In the free trade area of Maicao, Columbia, Hezbollah is believed to participate in cigarette smuggling and may have operated a clandestine radio station broadcasting the group's propaganda. (92).....snip~

Hezbollah Finances: - Funding the Party of God - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy






Cuba's Terror Smoking Gun.....

Terrorism: For years, Cuba's apologists have debunked U.S. warnings of Havana's sponsorship of terror. It withers in the face of news that Cuba has just set up a Hezbollah base.

According to a report in Italy's respected Corriere della Sera Wednesday, three Hezbollah terrorists operating out of Mexico have left that country to establish a permanent "bridgehead" to the communist island, calling their clandestine operation "The Caribbean Dossier." Twenty-three other terrorists from the Iran-linked terror group are expected to join the operation, which has a startup budget of more than $500,000. Corriere reported that the mission in Cuba is to provide logistical support for upcoming terrorist attacks planned in the hemisphere.

More disturbingly, they have been tasked to network with Hezbollah's other terrorist cells in Venezuela, Paraguay and Mexico, all in need of logistical support for attacks. But the targets might not all be Latin American. With Hezbollah ordered to meet with, presumably in Havana, Mexico's cartel traffickers that control illegal alien routes into the U.S., it's likely terrorist attacks are in the works for America, too.

Read More At Investor's Business Daily: Cuba's Terror Smoking Gun - Investors.com
Follow us: @IBDinvestors on Twitter | InvestorsBusinessDaily on Facebook
 
MMC said:
Yes those were all links and no they didn't go to the same article. Each Page for those listed are articles on Iran. Venezuela, Cuba.....and Hezbollah. Of course you would have known that if you would have checked them out.

Again they would not be putting this out if they didn't have the info. Which much of it was known already.

Here let me help you out without Revisionist history.



Hezbollah supporters living in the U.S. also sent remittances back to Lebanon to fund Hezbollah activities. For example, in Charlotte, NC Hezbollah support networks organized regular parlor meetings held in members' homes where a collection basket was passed around after watching Hezbollah propaganda videos, usually produced by al-Manar. (58)

Hezbollah activities in Latin America, however, are by no means limited to the triborder area. Chilean officials have identified several import-export companies, primarily located in free trade zones such as the Iquique Free Trade Zone (ZOFRI) in northern Chile, that are suspected as serving as either front organizations or shell companies for Hezbollah. These include Kalmiar Ltd, Bahamas Ltd., Las Vegas Nevada Ltd., San Francisco Ltd., Saleh Trading Ltd., Frankfourt Ltd., Guarany Ltd., Teen Chile Ltd., and Lucky Crown Ltd. (87)


Hezbollah members in Venezuela -- centered within the large Lebanese expatriate community on Margarita Island -- helped several members of the Hezbollah cell in Charlotte, North Carolina infiltrate into the United States through Venezuela in 1992. (91) In the free trade area of Maicao, Columbia, Hezbollah is believed to participate in cigarette smuggling and may have operated a clandestine radio station broadcasting the group's propaganda. (92).....snip~

Hezbollah Finances: - Funding the Party of God - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy






Cuba's Terror Smoking Gun.....

Terrorism: For years, Cuba's apologists have debunked U.S. warnings of Havana's sponsorship of terror. It withers in the face of news that Cuba has just set up a Hezbollah base.

According to a report in Italy's respected Corriere della Sera Wednesday, three Hezbollah terrorists operating out of Mexico have left that country to establish a permanent "bridgehead" to the communist island, calling their clandestine operation "The Caribbean Dossier." Twenty-three other terrorists from the Iran-linked terror group are expected to join the operation, which has a startup budget of more than $500,000. Corriere reported that the mission in Cuba is to provide logistical support for upcoming terrorist attacks planned in the hemisphere.

More disturbingly, they have been tasked to network with Hezbollah's other terrorist cells in Venezuela, Paraguay and Mexico, all in need of logistical support for attacks. But the targets might not all be Latin American. With Hezbollah ordered to meet with, presumably in Havana, Mexico's cartel traffickers that control illegal alien routes into the U.S., it's likely terrorist attacks are in the works for America, too.

Read More At Investor's Business Daily: Cuba's Terror Smoking Gun - Investors.com
Follow us: @IBDinvestors on Twitter | InvestorsBusinessDaily on Facebook
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I'll go with you for a second here, have we not done the same type of stuff? Just seems hypocritical, assuming what you say is true.
35 Countries Where the U.S. Has Supported Fascists, Drug Lords and Terrorists | Alternet
 
Chainsaw said:
AMEN, he could not care less about any beneficial Foreign Policy, a narcissistic a$$ like Obama just wants people to think he is nifty.
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Try as you boys may to frame American support for dictators as a brand new phenomenon with Obama. But we Americans have been kissing dictators asses for a century now!

Over the last century, the United States government has often provided, and continues to provide today, financial assistance, arms, and technical support to numerous authoritarian regimes across the world. A variety of reasons have been provided to justify the apparent contradictions between support for dictators and the democratic ideals expressed in the American constitution.

List of authoritarian regimes supported by the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Cuba has lent military support for revolutionaries in areas of Latin America and Africa, but I don't think that is the same thing as terrorism. Communists, yes. brutal dictators, yes. Terrorists, perhaps but not really beyond the island itself. Certainly they haven't bothered the U.S. As a person who was raised in Cuba I have personal problems with communism and the Castros but, if I look at things objectively, I guess it probably is a good thing to end the embargo. I'd like to visit. It's been a long while for me.
 
MTAtech said:
Every other nation, except the superpower 90 miles away.
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Yes, every other Nation which would mean Nimby was full of **** when he claimed that the GOP wanted to keep the Cuban people mired in poverty.
 
MMC said:
Yes those were all links and no they didn't go to the same article.
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What links? There are no "links"... The thing at the bottom? Cool thats how they tagged the article. That doesnt mean anything. Its a subject line. What are these "links"?

Each Page for those listed are articles on Iran. Venezuela, Cuba.....and Hezbollah. Of course you would have known that if you would have checked them out.
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Great. Good for them. Now what does that have to do with the citing of the information in the article itself other than being a subject category?

Again they would not be putting this out if they didn't have the info. Which much of it was known already.
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:roll: Oh yes, a right wing foreign policy think tank would never put out this info.. I mean they would never do that ! Never. I guess thats why they just couldnt provide any of that info where they got it from :lamo. Another appeal to authority. But hey its not like they would never make such claims, kinda like how the head of the organization Frank Gaffney would never make ludicrous claims that Saddam was behind the WTC Bombing, and the OKC bombing, he must clearly have that info! :lamo Its not like they have claimed that the new Missile Defense logo is proof of "Shariah Law" and that the Muslim Brotherhood has infiltrated the Federal Government! Wait but then again this is the same group that released a report stating that Shariah Law was sweeping across our nation and was a national security threat, but in reality didnt find ****. So you not only want to use the logic fallacy of appealing to authority, but you are appealing to these guys' authority on the basis "they wouldnt make such claims if they didnt have the info"... Yea good one.

Here let me help you out without Revisionist history.
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Okie dokie.
 
NIMBY said:
GOPs say they are concerned with the Cuban people--which is why they want to keep those people destitute .
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What makes you think this "grand deal" will make any difference? All the money goes to the Castro regime.
 
MMC said:
Hezbollah supporters living in the U.S. also sent remittances back to Lebanon to fund Hezbollah activities. For example, in Charlotte, NC Hezbollah support networks organized regular parlor meetings held in members' homes where a collection basket was passed around after watching Hezbollah propaganda videos, usually produced by al-Manar. (58)
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That is America. Not Cuba.
Hezbollah activities in Latin America, however, are by no means limited to the triborder area. Chilean officials have identified several import-export companies, primarily located in free trade zones such as the Iquique Free Trade Zone (ZOFRI) in northern Chile, that are suspected as serving as either front organizations or shell companies for Hezbollah. These include Kalmiar Ltd, Bahamas Ltd., Las Vegas Nevada Ltd., San Francisco Ltd., Saleh Trading Ltd., Frankfourt Ltd., Guarany Ltd., Teen Chile Ltd., and Lucky Crown Ltd. (87)
Click to expand...
That is Chile. Not Cuba.
Hezbollah members in Venezuela -- centered within the large Lebanese expatriate community on Margarita Island -- helped several members of the Hezbollah cell in Charlotte, North Carolina infiltrate into the United States through Venezuela in 1992. (91) In the free trade area of Maicao, Columbia, Hezbollah is believed to participate in cigarette smuggling and may have operated a clandestine radio station broadcasting the group's propaganda. (92).....snip~
Click to expand...
That is Venezuela.

According to a report in Italy's respected Corriere della Sera Wednesday, three Hezbollah terrorists operating out of Mexico have left that country to establish a permanent "bridgehead" to the communist island, calling their clandestine operation "The Caribbean Dossier." Twenty-three other terrorists from the Iran-linked terror group are expected to join the operation, which has a startup budget of more than $500,000. Corriere reported that the mission in Cuba is to provide logistical support for upcoming terrorist attacks planned in the hemisphere.

More disturbingly, they have been tasked to network with Hezbollah's other terrorist cells in Venezuela, Paraguay and Mexico, all in need of logistical support for attacks. But the targets might not all be Latin American. With Hezbollah ordered to meet with, presumably in Havana, Mexico's cartel traffickers that control illegal alien routes into the U.S., it's likely terrorist attacks are in the works for America, too.

Read More At Investor's Business Daily: Cuba's Terror Smoking Gun - Investors.com
Follow us: @IBDinvestors on Twitter | InvestorsBusinessDaily on Facebook
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1.)Repeating the same claim just form a different source does not help your claim.

2.)Also here is the article they are basing this off of: L' Hezbollah sbarca a Cuba «Prepara nuove azioni»
--A paragraph long, kind of worrysome dont you think? Also no sources? A completely unsourced story. A story as big as Hezbollah setting up a "base" in Cuba, seems like a pretty big ****ing story, one would think have a lot of info on the story.. Also in one of the other sources you mentioned you stated that they were funding Hezbollah (or Hamas, the other sources seemed to be a little confused which one was which, or they thought it was the same organization, who knows) through a charity organization... This one is claiming they are literally setting up a base on the island. So which is it? And also has this story been confirmed? Its been over 3 years since it was reported.. One would think a story such as this to be followed up.. Seems to me another shock piece that is completely unsubstantiated and has no confirmation or concrete proof.. I mean what happened to this report, I mean Glenn Beck cited it, and Michelle Bachmann recited it on her campaign trail, she even mentioned missiles! So what happened? If you ask me it seems that its a unsubstantial report, with no evidence, caused shock, made its round on the conservative blogosphere, and now the Center For Security Policy is getting a little desperate to find some reasons to why Cuba should not be removed from States Sponsors of Terrorism so they are grasping at straws, just like you are.

3.)****ing serious? Drug cartels? Mexican drug cartels met with the Cuban state and Hezbollah in Havana? And this is based off what? The editorials word? You seriously take this at face value?

Let me help you out again: "There was no indication that the Cuban government provided weapons or paramilitary training to terrorist groups." Country Reports on Terrorism 2013 State Sponsors of Terrorism Overview

Also, repeating literally the same claims over and over again and just changing the editorial your cite is not proving anything.
 
Fearandloathing said:
and there again we have a moral issue.

By what right does the US maintain that base?

The Cuban government has asked them to leave, refuses payment to underscore that point, so how do you justify it with one of the largest Naval Air Stations 90 miles and 7 minutes away?

The US attitude toward Cuba is one of a belligerent state.
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If I recall, the lease agreement is such that both parties, the US and Cuba, have to both agree to break the lease. At this point in time, only Cuba wants to break the lease, so it cannot be dissolved.
Fearandloathing said:
Hypocrisy.

The United States is founded on the rule of law, fought and fought hard to see that Nazi's were tried fairly and has lectured the world, including Cuba on civil rights while violating the civil rights of foreigners often based on erroneous hear say. Canada's own experience is Mahar Arar.
Click to expand...

And there are no laws, and no international agreements which covers these particular fighting forces. They are not military, and they are not fighting for a particular state. The closest thing that fits would be spy, and they can be summarily shot on discovery or anytime thereafter. There's nothing that specifically covers this particular situation as it hasn't been experienced to this level previously, if I recall. The laws and international agreements haven't caught up with this new form of asymmetric conflict. Had these been in place, I'm pretty sure they'd have been used. As they were not, and the need was great and immediate, something had to be cobbled together quickly. The result is Gitmo.

Fearandloathing said:
if the US wants to lecture anyone then bring the evidence, at least a tribunal so that justice can be seen to be done.
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The Gitmo military tribunals need to conclude, agreed. They've gone on far too long, and the cases should have been decided quite awhile go. Should the tribunals have concluded that some deserved to be executed, then so be it. But they should have been concluded long ago. On that we agree.
Fearandloathing said:
You have been lied to repeatedly from "you can keep your plan" to spying and over the years secret wars, and yet by mentioning "terrorist" you abandon your own constitution, imprison people without examinable evidence, access to information, access to counsel, abject torture and hold without independent examination of the "evidence" apparently for life. Despite all these lies, the American public trusts the lies of the CIA who covered up Benghazi to be truthful about what's going on, don't worry about the CIA making mistakes.

How do we know that after all these years they will return to the fight? Besides, "the fight" is now at least four times larger than it was six years ago, so how is Gitmo helping?
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Gitmo is not the cause for the fight growing as large as it has. The power vacuum that Obama caused with this troop withdrawal is. The case can be made that if the troops would have remained in place, ISIS wouldn't have formed, or at least have been limited to Syria, for Syria to deal with, and frankly, we shouldn't have been hemming in Assad and his forces, rather, we should have allowed him to continue to maintain a lid on what was the precursor to ISIS.

So that'd be a double foreign policy failure on Obama and SoS Clinton's part. Two pretty much unforgivable and unforced errors, that the world will be paying for for quite some time. You can say the same for Lybia.

Fearandloathing said:
That isn't an imperfect solution, that is a crime.

In 911 you surrendered your own freedom and values, I say the terrorists won by destroying democracy in America.
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A valid point. Perhaps not destroyed, but certainly dented.

All these claims of hypocrisy are nice and all, and are probably accurate, but in the real, practical world . . . . .

What's you solution? You've had your rant, all fine and good. Now for the harder part. What would you replace Gitmo with?
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
people are dirt poor and the communist regime only survives on capitalist tourist dollars and patron countries subsidizing it.

Cubans are paid less than $50 a month, it's survival all these years was due to the USSR subsidizing it, and it know to survive it must legalize private business, and private property, which it is slowly doing.

It's a failed communist state no matter how many doctores they produce and it runs at a net loss and in debt to it's patron countries.
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I would say that being boycotted by the largest potential trading partner 90 miles away would put a damper on economic growth. However, Cuba is far better than Haiti, which is a nearby neighbor and not Communist. It's literacy rate is the highest in the region.

In Haiti, Life expectancy at birth: 63.18 years.
Literacy: 48.7%
 
Fearandloathing said:
How many do you want?

There's a store three blocks from me has top grade Cuban. Send me the money and I will send some to you.

Or maybe the next time I vacation there
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I know, I know. But the fact that they are illegal not more than thirty miles to the south of where you're at makes them special to us.

Did you ever see "Smokey and the Bandit" with Burt Reynolds and Sally Field? The premise was smuggling a semi full of Coors beer east of the Mississippi, because at that point in time in the 70's, Coors would not sell their beer east of the Mississippi. So to those of us who lived about thirty miles on the wrong side of the Mississippi (yes, that was me, thirty miles east of Greenville, MS), Coors was something special...even though it's really not that good a beer. The fact that it was smuggled made it special. And so it is with Cuban cigars. One time I did buy some in Vancouver and I sent them to my brother in Mississippi...and he loved them, shared them with his boss.

I guess it's when something relatively harmless is illegal or otherwise unavailable, that something becomes special to those of us among the Great Unwashed.....
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
lifting the embargo on cuba will be like drinking after your 21st birthday, there is no air of misbehaving, and you realize that natty light aint that good.
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Just as Coors - after they finally began selling east of the Mississippi - was no longer special. I get it. But I'll still want to celebrate America finally getting a clue when it comes to Cuba.
 
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