The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has virtually unequivocal evidence[W:577]

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Grant said:

Perhaps you should direct your question to them.

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I'm making a point.

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Dovkan said:

I'm making a point.

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In fact you believe you made a point. That's another example of how beliefs may differ.

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:

Arguements from the fined tuned constants of physics. Explain why it's not evidence of God. Cause I could give you evidence more and more, but if you don't say why it's not true but instead just say it's not evidence then I'm sorry you lost the debate.

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Your wishful thinking does not constitute evidence just because you want it to

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:

Arguements from the fined tuned constants of physics. Explain why it's not evidence of God. Cause I could give you evidence more and more, but if you don't say why it's not true but instead just say it's not evidence then I'm sorry you lost the debate.

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The argument of fine tuning always goes on and on about the infinitesimal chance that the universe would exist as it is without some creator deity making it perfect just for us. Unfortunately, the argument on the other side seems to be a bit more logical. We and the world/universe that we know couldn't exist in any other form. The natural actions of every teeny, tiny bit of matter have resulted in our existence. So the chance of it all happening is 1 in 1.

A good guesstimate says that if every star we know of had a habitable planet around it, then there would still be only one billionth of one billionth of one millionth of one percent of the volume of the universe that would be inhabitable. How is that "fine-tuning"? When the vast majority of the universe can't support any life form, that is supposed to make it the best place for us to exist?

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:

You look at the founder of the religion to see the truth. Jesus taught to Love others.

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
- John 13:34
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.
-Matthew 5:43
He taught to turn the other cheek, go the extra mile in helping others, denying yourself to be willing to sacrifice for others.
Those people who commit acts of violence are not following Jesus nor have the love of God in them. Therefor how can one blame the faith that teaches the complete opposite of such things. Instead blame the men who do them.
And thus if we look at the founder of Islam Muhammad, we do find someone who actually unlike Jesus, endorsed such violence. So we look to the founders to see if it's the faith that's at fault, or men who claim to follower something they obviously do not.

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Those were written long after Jesus died. To attribute EXACT QUOTES to a person is ridiculous...

First, several atheists contended that you cannot really compare the crimes of Christian regimes of the past to those of atheist regimes of the twentieth century.

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I don't care about this argument in the slightest... it is just you grasping.

the same can be said of those who don't want there to be a God as they'd rather not be held accountable for there life.

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...ridiculous. How am I not accountable for my life?

So they look at life and the evidence for God or Jesus or otherwise, through the filter of atheism.

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God gave us logic. God gave us curiousity. God gave us the drive to seek evidence. God and people like you then scoff when my curiousity leads me to seek evidence through logic?

No offense but that is totally stupid.

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
Winston Churchill

Humanism or atheism is a wonderful philosophy of life as long as you are big, strong, and between the ages of eighteen and thirty-five. But watch out if you are in a lifeboat and there are others who are younger, bigger, or smarter.
William Murray

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See... those quotes are based in fact as they were transcribed or recorded as they were said...

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Fenton said:

Prove that God doesn't exist, otherwise you rely on faith just as believers rely on it

The truth is you have no proof to back up your beliefs, so its a bit hypocritical to talk down to the faithful.

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*sigh* One can't prove something DOESN'T EXIST if it DOES NOT EXIST. :roll:

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Fenton said:

Wrong, Aethist are MAKING THE CLAIM God DOESN'T EXIST.

PROVE your claim and stop being such a glaring hypocrite.

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You clearly do not understand logic.

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Fenton said:

Huh ?

Lol !! I guess I'm not going to get a honest answer out of someone who celebrates Marx.

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Dude, if I claim that I can make a pizza that floats but that nobody can see because it is up to me to show you. Nobody in their right mind would come to you after you say it can happen and tell you to prove that I can't do it BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. If have to show it first.

That is how this works... you have to SHOW EVIDENCE THAT GOD EXISTS


AND THEN we can argue if the evidence is legitimate or not. Damn dude... :roll:

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

j-mac said:

Wow! Stunning....If this is reviewed, and verified, what, and how do you see this effecting Christianity? Especially considering the open attack it is under today?

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Most likely a forgery. The research has not been published in a peer reviewed journal.

Sounds like someone just trying to make a buck.

Forgeries of religious artifacts are unfortunately common.

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Somerville said:

The argument of fine tuning always goes on and on about the infinitesimal chance that the universe would exist as it is without some creator deity making it perfect just for us. Unfortunately, the argument on the other side seems to be a bit more logical. We and the world/universe that we know couldn't exist in any other form. The natural actions of every teeny, tiny bit of matter have resulted in our existence. So the chance of it all happening is 1 in 1.

A good guesstimate says that if every star we know of had a habitable planet around it, then there would still be only one billionth of one billionth of one millionth of one percent of the volume of the universe that would be inhabitable. How is that "fine-tuning"? When the vast majority of the universe can't support any life form, that is supposed to make it the best place for us to exist?

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Earth, yes

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

RogueWarrior said:

SIGH

Yes believing something without proof requires faith, your point?

Why WHY?
Lets examine the 4 example claims from my post and apply your logic:

• The moon is made of cheese. Prove that it isn't
• There is an invisible pink unicorn looking over your shoulder as you type. Prove that there isn't.
• AGW is happening. Prove that it isn't.
• You have milk on your face. Prove that you don't.
• There is a god. Prove that there isn't.

This is called 'shifting the burden of proof'. You demand refutation of a claim as if it were an established fact. This you cannot do. If every claim, especially the extraordinary claims like my example #2 above, are to be considered fact, then all sorts of nonsense suddenly becomes fact simply because someone claims it.

And finally what does agnosticism have to do with belief?
For every claim made, there are 2 possible stances: Belief and non-belief. The default is always non-belief, as I just explained.
You can believe but not know why you believe. (eg.: you believe because like most religious people you are born into it; you have never really looked into it)
You can disbelieve and not know why precisely (eg.: the evidence from hinduism, judaism, christianity, islam etc is not compelling)

In both cases, these people, theist and atheist alike, are agnostic.

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There is no burden of proof, that claim is a nonstarter. Christians are no more obligated to prove that God exists than you are obligated to prove He doesn't.

Everyone has a right to believe as they choose, and, in a perfect world, we ought to respect each other's beliefs and the right to practice those beliefs in peace.

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Bodhisattva said:

Those were written long after Jesus died. To attribute EXACT QUOTES to a person is ridiculous...



I don't care about this argument in the slightest... it is just you grasping.



...ridiculous. How am I not accountable for my life?



God gave us logic. God gave us curiousity. God gave us the drive to seek evidence. God and people like you then scoff when my curiousity leads me to seek evidence through logic?

No offense but that is totally stupid.

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How Close Were the Authors to the Actual Events?
The vast majority of the New Testament was written in the second half of the first century. It was complete by A.D. 150. Only a few of the authors were eyewitnesses, but the story can always be traced back to the eyewitnesses.

Jesus’ ministry was from A.D. 27-30. Noted New Testament scholar, F.F. Bruce, gives strong evidence that the New Testament was completed by A.D. 100.{3} Most writings of the New Testament works were completed twenty to forty years before this. The Gospels are dated traditionally as follows: Mark is believed to be the first gospel written around A.D. 60. Matthew and Luke follow and are written between A.D. 60-70; John is the final gospel, written between A.D. 90-100.

Is This Close Enough to Consider These Accounts Reliable?
The answer is yes. The eyewitnesses had to pass on the story before they died, of course. The eyewitnesses would not garble the story in a way that destroys the critical themes and events of the story. When you are seventy, do you forget why you married your spouse? Remember that Jesus was the most important thing that happened to them. They would be more likely to forget their love of their spouses than they would be to forget the words and deeds of their Lord. Now, that is not to say that they never made a mistake. I know that my parents argue about the details of conversations from two months ago, let alone forty years ago. Also, it is possible that they might occasionally disagree about something important from when they were young.

The situation is similar for second and third generation Christian authors. They finished writing by A.D. 150. Even though they did not see the most important event of their lives directly, it was still the most important event of their lives. It radically changed who and what they were when they learned of Jesus. They then devoted their lives to learning about Jesus and writing about him. They also had the entire Christian community to guide them. Because they were writing very soon after the events, the apostles and the apostles' immediate followers were still around to correct them. Again, it is expected that details may get altered in translation.

So, the question becomes, how do we know when the account is reliable? There are two requirements. The first is that the event must have been important. People tend to forget things that were not important at the time, so it would not be surprising if there were some mistakes here. All of contradictions in the New Testament that I know about are in the not important category. The second is that the event should be consistent with the person of Jesus from the rest of the New Testament. It is reasonably possible for two people to disagree about an old, but important, event; but if three or four agree, it is highly unlikely that the event is misconstrued in a meaningful way. Even if there is only one source on an event or saying, if that event or saying agrees with the person of Jesus found elsewhere in the New Testament, there is no good reason to disbelieve it.

In conclusion, the authors were men who indirectly witnessed extraordinary events that dramatically changed their lives and the world. It was the events that made the men, and not the men that made the events. There is no room for these men to be deceived about the events because of their closeness to them and because of how deeply they were affected by them.

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Bodhisattva said:

Those were written long after Jesus died. To attribute EXACT QUOTES to a person is ridiculous...

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The apostles must have been good at taking shorthand.

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

We are supposed to give credit to the author when we post a quote in these forums - JFish123

It must be JFish123 who wrote the following: "All of contradictions in the New Testament that I know about are in the not important category."

Not Very Important: Date of Jesus birth, escape to Egypt or return to Nazareth, geneology of Joseph, Jesus - a descendant of David?, are just a few "not very important" contradictions

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:

How Close Were the Authors to the Actual Events?

In conclusion, the authors were men who indirectly witnessed extraordinary events that dramatically changed their lives and the world. It was the events that made the men, and not the men that made the events. There is no room for these men to be deceived about the events because of their closeness to them and because of how deeply they were affected by them.

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There is no such thing as an "indirect witness". There is direct and indirect evidence though... as well as "witnesses".

What you are describing as an indirect witness is actually hearsay and hearsay is not admissible in court because it is unreliable.

The writings about Jesus are circumstantial at best and that brings us back to the matter about there being ZERO evidence that God exists...

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

zyzygy said:

The apostles must have been good at taking shorthand.

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Another factor that leads to exact quotes being accurate in jeopardy...

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Somerville said:

We are supposed to give credit to the author when we post a quote in these forums - JFish123

It must be JFish123 who wrote the following: "All of contradictions in the New Testament that I know about are in the not important category."

Not Very Important: Date of Jesus birth, escape to Egypt or return to Nazareth, geneology of Joseph, Jesus - a descendant of David?, are just a few "not very important" contradictions

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The myth of his birth in Bethlehem was concocted to fit an old prophecy about Jesus being descended from the stem of Jesse, but Joseph was not Jesus's father. Somehow this seems to make sense to Christians.

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Somerville said:

We are supposed to give credit to the author when we post a quote in these forums - JFish123

It must be JFish123 who wrote the following: "All of contradictions in the New Testament that I know about are in the not important category."

Not Very Important: Date of Jesus birth, escape to Egypt or return to Nazareth, geneology of Joseph, Jesus - a descendant of David?, are just a few "not very important" contradictions

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Gospels don't specify Jesus exact birth date so not contradiction, the genealogies are different because Luke is recording Mary’s genealogy and Matthew is recording Joseph’s. Matthew is following the line of Joseph (Jesus’ legal father), through David’s son Solomon, while Luke is following the line of Mary (Jesus’ blood relative), through David’s son Nathan. Since there was no Greek word for “son-in-law,” Joseph was called the “son of Heli” by marriage to Mary, Heli’s daughter. Through either Mary’s or Joseph’s line, Jesus is a descendant of David and therefore eligible to be the Messiah. There are no contradictions. Any more? Give clear examples like verses please and thank you

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

So here's a few questions for the atheists in the room since you like asking questions hmm?
1: How can there be free will in a purely materialistic universe?
2: on what basis can we make moral judgments?
3: what explains the fine tuning of the universe?
4: what accounts for the resurrection of Jesus?
5: What caused the universe to exist?

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Somerville said:

The argument of fine tuning always goes on and on about the infinitesimal chance that the universe would exist as it is without some creator deity making it perfect just for us.

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The argument you speak of is easy to address with this simple question

Who created the creator ?

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Grant said:

Actually it's not. The Communist party wanted the people to believe in Communism, that that is where their faith should reside. Communists believed, and with some justification, that only one sincere belief was possible and that others should be controlled or avoided.

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In Communism, the deity is arguably the government or the leader (Mao in China? The Kims from North Korea?). Cults of personalities, all of them.

Not a serious response, bud.

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Mine was very serious. You wanted to claim it. You can't defend it. Look at the most non-religious countries. I'm trying to think of the last census I saw. I think Australia, the Nordic countries, Canada, France and South Korea? In other words, places with higher qualities of life and stable atmospheres. Oops.

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:

1: How can there be free will in a purely materialistic universe?

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Why not ?

2: on what basis can we make moral judgments?

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On the basis of civilised societal norms

3: what explains the fine tuning of the universe?

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Why does it need an explanation ? Its nature doing what it does

4: what accounts for the resurrection of Jesus?

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Superstitious mumbo jumbo written by men centuries after the alleged event

5: What caused the universe to exist?

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What caused its alleged creator to exist before it ?

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

flogger said:

Why not ?



On the basis of civilised societal norms



Why does it need an explanation ? Its nature doing what it does



Superstitious mumbo jumbo written by men centuries after the alleged event



What caused its alleged creator to exist before it ?

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1. Free Will
Okay, for those of you who fit this criteria, here’s my question. If matter and energy are all that exist in the universe, then how do you rationally defend the idea that you have free will and can properly use logic?

The point is this--how can you as a strict materialist really trust your own mind? I mean, if everything in the universe is matter and energy, then that means your physical brain is bound by the laws of physics. Think about this. In a purely materialistic worldview where the human brain is nothing more than the summation of chemicals and brain wiring, how do you justify having both free will and rationality?
You see, it’s a brain problem.
How does one chemical state of the brain that is altered by the electrical firing of neurons, which leads to another chemical state in your brain, produce free thought and logical inference?

If your brain is hardwired and constrained by the physical laws, then it cannot act outside of those laws or outside the limits of the hardwiring. It is, in essence, caged in by the limits of physical properties and cannot break free of them.
This would mean that whatever stimulus you receive, such as being asked a question, will result in a specific response that must be in accordance with whatever arrangement your brain’s nuero-chemical wiring requires.

Let me illustrate. If you could be exactly reproduced in an identical environment and your other ‘you’ was asked a question, it, just like you, would produce the exact same response. If this scenario were played over and over again, you’d always respond the exact same way. You’d have no choice but to do so. Why? Because, in strict materialism, you are nothing more than the arrangement of chemicals and wiring in your brain which will automatically produce a specific result when faced with specific stimulus. So then, how are you free? And, how can you trust your logical conclusions since they too are merely the result of the changes of chemical states in your physical brain? How do you know you aren’t believing lies about reality, and how would you know you’re not being illogical in your conclusions? After all, it could be your brain wiring that makes you “think” you’re believing truth and also being logical.

Now, if you say that my reasoning is flawed, then my response is that you are forced to reply that way because of the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain.

Or perhaps you “believe” you have free will. Maybe you “think” you’re logical. But then again, perhaps you are forced to believe and think that way due to the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain. I have to ask. How do you know that the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain doesn’t just produce a set of processes that force you to think and feel a certain way so that, according to evolutionary theory, your genetics can be passed down to other generations? In this evolutionary, materialistic process, deception could be a reality provided it results in genetic descendants. This way, your atheism is nothing more than a set of chemical states in your brain which forces you into certain beliefs and behaviors so that genes are carried on throughout the centuries.

Now, dear materialistic atheist, it doesn’t matter how you respond to this video because you were programmed to respond that way given the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain. But don’t feel bad, it isn’t your fault. It really isn’t your free will. It is the illusion of free will produced by the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain that makes you say what you say and think that what you think is actually logical--even though it might not really be right. Don’t agree? Well, we both know why you don’t agree, don’t we?

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123, why do you continually post comments that were written by other people, without providing any indication the words you post are not your creation?

Your post #524 is yet another instance of failing to give credit to the author and failing to provide a link to the original. If this were high school English class you would be given a failing grade. This is plagiarism - theft.