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The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has virtually unequivocal evidence[W:577]

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

I think there is no question that Jesus the human being existed. there is nothing wrong with admitting that no matter what you think of him being the messiah. I think there is just as much proof that he existed as there is that Alexander the Great or Aristotle existed. in order to believe there was some conspiracy to "create" Jesus you would have to believe something along the lines of a 9/11 conspiracy theory. there are too many impossibilities to consider. If the disciples conspired together why wouldn't all of their historical accounts be exactly the same instead of having sometimes huge differences in their stories about Jesus. it just doesn't make sense from the start.

Wow, now that's a new twist, eyewitness accounts differing being offered up as proof!! And what "evidence" outside of the bible is there that he existed. Two historians that would have been his contemporaries, Philo of Alexandria and Josephus failed to mention a guy healing the sick, raising the dead, and feeding throngs with a couple fish and a few loaves of bread. (Of course the "Complete Works of Josephus" have an after thought paragraph that mention him quite in passing, lol. )
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

The Bible has more than a few such impositions. The death penalty for cursing a parent, taking the Lord's name in vain, not crying out loudly enough while being raped, or even not being a virgin on your wedding night (Those last two apply women only.) are some examples. Remember the guy who picked up sticks on the Sabbath? Death..... Look to the beam in your own eye.
Too long to write so I'll be short as possible with lout too much theology... New covenant. When the religious people brought a woman caught commiting adultery they wanted to stone her. Jesus answered them and they left, and told her he doesn't condemn her and to Go sin no more. Jesus healed on the sabbath and that made them want to kill him even more. And it's interesting, Funny how people use scripture when convenient to them, then chuck it out for the rest of there lives.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Wow, now that's a new twist, eyewitness accounts differing being offered up as proof!! And what "evidence" outside of the bible is there that he existed. Two historians that would have been his contemporaries, Philo of Alexandria and Josephus failed to mention a guy healing the sick, raising the dead, and feeding throngs with a couple fish and a few loaves of bread. (Of course the "Complete Works of Josephus" have an after thought paragraph that mention him quite in passing, lol. )

There's plenty non biblical sources. Here are just a few...
Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

Phlegon (80-140AD)
Phlegon wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:
“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.”
Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):
“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to his predictions."
“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place …"
“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.”

Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
Early Christians were also described in early, non-Christian history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

Suetonius (69-140AD)
Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):
“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome).” (Life of Claudius, 25:4)
This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.” (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)

And on and on...
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

It doesn't matter whose "perspective" it is. Cutting peoples hands off for theft, permission to beat women, killing people for changing religion, is wrong and crazy universally, regardless of how some people may feel about it.

Apparently not because they don't see it wrong or crazy where it is practiced. It's sad how incapable you are of thinking critically or rationally, all you're doing is saying "it makes me feel bad so it's wrong, waaaaah!"
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Too long to write so I'll be short as possible with lout too much theology... New covenant. When the religious people brought a woman caught commiting adultery they wanted to stone her. Jesus answered them and they left, and told her he doesn't condemn her and to Go sin no more. Jesus healed on the sabbath and that made them want to kill him even more. And it's interesting, Funny how people use scripture when convenient to them, then chuck it out for the rest of there lives.

What you sight are the very reasons that the Jews, who very much believe in messiah, are waiting for his appearance yet, reject Jesus as him. They know that messiah will be without sin, otherwise, Torah observant. Ruling out Jesus was quite easy. As to the woman brought to him, having been accused of adultery, he demonstrated he didn't know everything about the law, which requires that both parties are to be brought forth. He never asked where the man was. Furthermore, the law never stipulated that those stoning a person caught in such sin, must themselves be without sin.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

There's plenty non biblical sources. Here are just a few...
Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

Phlegon (80-140AD)
Phlegon wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:
“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.”
Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):
“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to his predictions."
“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place …"
“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.”

Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
Early Christians were also described in early, non-Christian history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

Suetonius (69-140AD)
Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):
“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome).” (Life of Claudius, 25:4)
This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.” (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)

And on and on...

So Thallus didn't understand the science of a solar eclipse. Bar-Sarapions mention of a Jewish Wise King doesn't confirm the mythological Jesus. None of your sources are contemporary with the time Jesus was alleged to have lived. As I pointed out, the silence from Philo and Josephus who would have been his contemporaries says it all.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

I think there is no question that Jesus the human being existed. there is nothing wrong with admitting that no matter what you think of him being the messiah. I think there is just as much proof that he existed as there is that Alexander the Great or Aristotle existed. in order to believe there was some conspiracy to "create" Jesus you would have to believe something along the lines of a 9/11 conspiracy theory. there are too many impossibilities to consider. If the disciples conspired together why wouldn't all of their historical accounts be exactly the same instead of having sometimes huge differences in their stories about Jesus. it just doesn't make sense from the start.

There may or may not have been a person known as Jesus, which is a common enough name, living in that location at that time. The magic stories attached to him are still a mishmash of pre-existing, current at the time, and later myths and embroideries. The books named after the apostles weren't actually written by them. Besides which, where are the other eight?
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Wow, now that's a new twist, eyewitness accounts differing being offered up as proof!! And what "evidence" outside of the bible is there that he existed. Two historians that would have been his contemporaries, Philo of Alexandria and Josephus failed to mention a guy healing the sick, raising the dead, and feeding throngs with a couple fish and a few loaves of bread. (Of course the "Complete Works of Josephus" have an after thought paragraph that mention him quite in passing, lol. )

How many people from the first century can we dismiss from existence using these techniques? Why are you holding of Jesus as the one who needs SPECIAL evidence of existence. more than you require to believe Aristotle, for example, existed. nefarious motive perhaps?
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Too long to write so I'll be short as possible with lout too much theology... New covenant. When the religious people brought a woman caught commiting adultery they wanted to stone her. Jesus answered them and they left, and told her he doesn't condemn her and to Go sin no more. Jesus healed on the sabbath and that made them want to kill him even more. And it's interesting, Funny how people use scripture when convenient to them, then chuck it out for the rest of there lives.

Excuses excuses. Kill the children who curse you is a biblical instruction. Worse even than chopping off a thief's hand, yet you handwave the first while condemning the second. What was Jesus' attitude to hypocrites?
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

How many people from the first century can we dismiss from existence using these techniques? Why are you holding of Jesus as the one who needs SPECIAL evidence of existence. more than you require to believe Aristotle, for example, existed. nefarious motive perhaps?

I've never spoke to Aristotle. Aristotle though isn't a figure of worship, doesn't pose any threat due to heinous doctrines. At any rate, my Christian friends insist we must take it on faith.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

So Thallus didn't understand the science of a solar eclipse. Bar-Sarapions mention of a Jewish Wise King doesn't confirm the mythological Jesus. None of your sources are contemporary with the time Jesus was alleged to have lived. As I pointed out, the silence from Philo and Josephus who would have been his contemporaries says it all.

The earliest biography of Alexander the Great was written 400 years after his death.

The famous philosopher Socrates has no surviving work and is unknown save through the often contradictory testimony of his students.

I mean shoot, the Roman Emperor at the time had less known sources about him than Jesus. And the earliest account of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15) was known within years of Jesus’ death. The earliest gospel, Mark, was written about 30 years after Jesus’ death . And the earliest non-Christian source, Josephus, wrote about Jesus about 70 years after his death.

Even hardcore atheists like Richard Dawkins admit Jesus was historical. Even "Ask the Atheists" website claims as much as well as almost every other major atheists. To claim not enough evidence for Jesus, gotta cancel Alexander, Socrates, the Roman Emperor at the time of Jesus etc... Off the list as well to even begin to be credible.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

So Thallus didn't understand the science of a solar eclipse. Bar-Sarapions mention of a Jewish Wise King doesn't confirm the mythological Jesus. None of your sources are contemporary with the time Jesus was alleged to have lived. As I pointed out, the silence from Philo and Josephus who would have been his contemporaries says it all.

And of course, we don't have the writings of Thallus anyhow, we only know about them because they are referenced in another work, which has also gone entirely missing. It's a second-hand account at best. Let's be honest. JFish123 is just cutting and pasting from an apologist site and everything he has to say has been soundly rebutted. He has no clue what he's talking about, which isn't at all a surprise.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Excuses excuses. Kill the children who curse you is a biblical instruction. Worse even than chopping off a thief's hand, yet you handwave the first while condemning the second. What was Jesus' attitude to hypocrites?

Jesus told those people who did believe in those punishments were wrong. So don't know how that's hypocritical if I follow the one who told the people in charge what they believed were wrong. And how many lives has atheist regimes butchered in the last century? By my count over 100 million. Not a good track record for just 100 years...
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

And of course, we don't have the writings of Thallus anyhow, we only know about them because they are referenced in another work, which has also gone entirely missing. It's a second-hand account at best. Let's be honest. JFish123 is just cutting and pasting from an apologist site and everything he has to say has been soundly rebutted. He has no clue what he's talking about, which isn't at all a surprise.

Then to be intellectually honest, you have to believe Alexander the Great,Socrates didn't exist either. My God, if Richard Dawkins and people like Ask the Atheists website among many other atheists agree Jesus existed, your really reaching the bottom of the barrel with conspiracy theories to do all you can not to believe in Jesus. Don't know why, don't care, but something ain't right for such a defense . My guess, you don't want there to be a Jesus so all evidence goes through a bias of can't be , so mustn't be. Gotta be independent like others who looked at the evidence and came to the historical conclusion my man.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Jesus told those people who did believe in those punishments were wrong. So don't know how that's hypocritical if I follow the one who told the people in charge what they believed were wrong. And how many lives has atheist regimes butchered in the last century? By my count over 100 million. Not a good track record for just 100 years...

You can't prove BS with more BS from the same source.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Truth is atheists don't want there to be a God as they don't want to be held accountable to anyone for there lives. Jesus is God Christians say? Easiest way to avoid it, by saying he never existed despite the contrary, that even many atheists admit.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Instead of Christians being on the defensive, how bout some Atheists explain how atheist states often end in atrocity? around a century...
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,00 people murdered
Jozef Stalin (USSR 1932-39 only) 15,000,000 people murdered
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000 people murdered
Kim II Sung (North Korea 1948-94) 1.6 million people murdered
Tito (Yugoslavia 1945-1987) 570,000 people murdered
Suharto (Communists 1967-66) 500,000 people murdered
Ante Pavelic (Croatia 1941-45) 359,000 people murdered
Ho Chi Min (Vietnam 1953-56) 200,000 people murdered
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 people murdered
24c0a0400e44fa44215c3968038bac12.jpg
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

To honor dead students they should. And to the second part, this country was founded on Judeo Christian values. But If someone wants to do a Hindu prayer in a court house go ahead. I may not agree with to whom your praying too, so I'm not going to pray with you. No harm no fowl.

Honoring dead students does not necessitate religious symbols and the University is under no obligation to "honor" anybody...

This country was founded on religious freedom, not Christian values. This is a nation of Christians for the most part but it is a nation of religious freedom that is important and you miss the point... Muslim Qu'ran quotes inscribed on Federal Courthouse walls or inscribed in plaques like the Ten Commandments are. What are your thoughts ON THAT?
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Would you be okay with Muslims putting their symbols and sayings in a federal courthouse?

No. There should be ZERO religious symbols on government or state run places. None. That includes Christian ones...

Instead of a benevolent God they often choose government as their masters


Government is what gives humans rights... that is why.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Instead of Christians being on the defensive, how bout some Atheists explain how atheist states often end in atrocity? around a century...
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,00 people murdered
Jozef Stalin (USSR 1932-39 only) 15,000,000 people murdered
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000 people murdered
Kim II Sung (North Korea 1948-94) 1.6 million people murdered
Tito (Yugoslavia 1945-1987) 570,000 people murdered
Suharto (Communists 1967-66) 500,000 people murdered
Ante Pavelic (Croatia 1941-45) 359,000 people murdered
Ho Chi Min (Vietnam 1953-56) 200,000 people murdered
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 people murdered
24c0a0400e44fa44215c3968038bac12.jpg

The United States is not a religious state and the reason we don't have these atrocities is because of the way that the government is set up... those listed were for the most part dictatorships. Religion is irrelevant and China was always Buddhist. You need a basic course in government, my friend... ;)
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Ironic you would say that, when, according to your link:

hundred

noun hun·dred \ˈhən-drəd, -dərd\

: the number 100

hundreds : an amount that is more than 200
used to refer to a specified century

Not ironic and NO... not whatever. "used to refer to a specified century" :roll: I can't roll my eyes enough at the stupidity of your argument cp.

But whatever. You were attempting to use time to discredit the authorship of the NT, and turned out to be wrong.

Wrong again. I am not trying to discredit the authorship I am merely stating that quoting people that said something 30 years before or 10 days before and taking it as literal is stupid. The exact quotes in the Bible written by people that were not there or did not hear it themselves is idiotic. To live a life based on these quotes borders on insanity...
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

The earliest biography of Alexander the Great was written 400 years after his death.

The famous philosopher Socrates has no surviving work and is unknown save through the often contradictory testimony of his students.

I mean shoot, the Roman Emperor at the time had less known sources about him than Jesus. And the earliest account of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15) was known within years of Jesus’ death. The earliest gospel, Mark, was written about 30 years after Jesus’ death . And the earliest non-Christian source, Josephus, wrote about Jesus about 70 years after his death.

Even hardcore atheists like Richard Dawkins admit Jesus was historical. Even "Ask the Atheists" website claims as much as well as almost every other major atheists. To claim not enough evidence for Jesus, gotta cancel Alexander, Socrates, the Roman Emperor at the time of Jesus etc... Off the list as well to even begin to be credible.

But I'm not talking about any of those people. I'm talking about the mythical figure of Jesus.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

The number one, to my knowledge, has always been singular. If it precedes the word 'hundred' it still remains singular. I'm guessing that the same rule would apply to one million, one billion or one trillion, though I'm not that familiar with New Math.

Argue with Merriam Webster if you have a problem with the English Language... :lol:

New Math. :lol:

Was that a singular "hundreds" or a plural "hundreds"?

"A hundred" = 100

Once it is past 100 the term "hundreds" can apply. Not sure why this is so difficult but it is truly a grade school concept.
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

:shrug: he claimed that the New Testament wasn't finished being written until "hundreds" of years after.

Wrong. I said something like 15-30 years to hundreds of years. In the end, even though I am right about the term... the ****ING POINT was that to trust in quotes about what a person said that was written MUCH LATER in terms of years... is ****ing moronic as everybody knows that time distorts and corrupts memory, especially word for word, page after page, translation from language to language... :roll:
 
Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Then to be intellectually honest, you have to believe Alexander the Great,Socrates didn't exist either. My God, if Richard Dawkins and people like Ask the Atheists website among many other atheists agree Jesus existed, your really reaching the bottom of the barrel with conspiracy theories to do all you can not to believe in Jesus. Don't know why, don't care, but something ain't right for such a defense . My guess, you don't want there to be a Jesus so all evidence goes through a bias of can't be , so mustn't be. Gotta be independent like others who looked at the evidence and came to the historical conclusion my man.

Richard Dawkins isn't my guru. He accepts the existence of the historical Jesus (not the mythical Christ of faith that you're promoting) but even Dawkins can't make it be so. And there remains plenty of scholars that don't.
 
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