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Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed[W:1581]

Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

If one doesnt approve of say...lying, or maybe killing, or stealing, or raping, or any other numbers of 'sin' categories, are they considered 'bigots'?

Are you trying to compare bigotry and oppression towards gay people to bigotry and oppression to rapists?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Are you trying to compare bigotry and oppression towards gay people to bigotry and oppression to rapists?

I'd say yes he is.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I'd say yes he is.

Am I missing something (honestly) because that doesn't make much sense to me...
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Are you trying to compare bigotry and oppression towards gay people to bigotry and oppression to rapists?
I asked a very simple direct and honest question. It deserves a very simple direct an honest answer. Notice I didnt use any words ending in 'ist'. My question is regard to the disregard of sin...not to the equivalency of 'sinners'.

Care to answer the question or are you just another one of 'those' guys?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I asked a very simple direct and honest question. It deserves a very simple direct an honest answer. Notice I didnt use any words ending in 'ist'. My question is regard to the disregard of sin...not to the equivalency of 'sinners'.

Care to answer the question or are you just another one of 'those' guys?

If one doesn't approve of raping are they a bigot? Under this definition they technically are:

: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)

Disliking a rapist is dilsliking another person/group (rapists) so I guess but that is pretty stupid. In reality the term is reserved for the latter part so no, they would not be bigots.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

If one doesn't approve of raping are they a bigot? Under this definition they technically are:

: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)

But in reality the term is reserved for the latter part so no, they would not be bigots.
Really? They are 'not' bigots if they believe certain sinful behaviors are wrong but they ARE bigots if they believe other forms of sinful behavior are wrong? What is the source of 'right' or 'wrong' then regard to those behaviors?

Oh...heres another question. Why are Dolce and Gabanna NOT bigots and homophobes for believing gay marriage is ridiculous and wrong, yet Christians (ooops...lets clarify...CONSERVATIVE Christians) ARE labelled bigots and homophobes for the same belief?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Really? They are 'not' bigots if they believe certain sinful behaviors are wrong but they ARE bigots if they believe other forms of sinful behavior are wrong? What is the source of 'right' or 'wrong' then regard to those behaviors?

Oh...heres another question. Why are Dolce and Gabanna NOT bigots and homophobes for believing gay marriage is ridiculous and wrong, yet Christians (ooops...lets clarify...CONSERVATIVE Christians) ARE labelled bigots and homophobes for the same belief?

I don't believe in sin. That should answer your first part... being gay is not harmful to others like raping and killing. To even suggest such a thing is LITERALLY stupid.

No idea who those two are but if they profess as you state then they are also bigots.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I don't believe in sin. That should answer your first part... being gay is not harmful to others like raping and killing. To even suggest such a thing is LITERALLY stupid.

No idea who those two are but if they profess as you state then they are also bigots.
Fine. I dont see 'sin' the same as others do as well. But in the catalogue of behaviors, homosexuality IS considered just as much a sin as lying or murder. Everything other than the factual interpretation is mere moral equivalence. Its 'right' or 'wrong' because you WANT it to be, not because it is or isnt.

Yes...Im sure Dolce and Gabanna are both bigots and homophobes. What of other gay people that agree with the pizzeria owners about their stated choices? Are they too bigots and homophobes?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I don't believe in sin. That should answer your first part... being gay is not harmful to others like raping and killing. To even suggest such a thing is LITERALLY stupid.

No idea who those two are but if they profess as you state then they are also bigots.

Here's another of your right-wing Christian bigots. “I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix.”
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Here's another of your right-wing Christian bigots. “I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix.”
Oh no. You see...thats DIFFERENT. Besides...he didnt REALLY mean that. He is a liar. But THEIR kind of liar.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Yes...Im sure Dolce and Gabanna are both bigots and homophobes. What of other gay people that agree with the pizzeria owners about their stated choices? Are they too bigots and homophobes?

One can be a bigot against their own group. My grandmother is a sexist bigot against women... go figure, but she is. I would have to hear what theose other gay people are saying... I try not to catagorize without information.

Fine. I dont see 'sin' the same as others do as well. But in the catalogue of behaviors, homosexuality IS considered just as much a sin as lying or murder. Everything other than the factual interpretation is mere moral equivalence. Its 'right' or 'wrong' because you WANT it to be, not because it is or isnt.

I should have clarified that I was not insulting you. I am sure you won't lose sleep but I did not intend to be a jerk with that stupid comment.

That said, according to many religions homosexuality is a sin. I think that is dumb. I think religions are divisive and harmful. I think more harm has been caused by religion than can even EVER be compared to how much good it has done. Spirituality... great. Belief in God... great. Religion... generally horrible. It isn't religion that teaches tolerance and peace as those are already human traits.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Here's another of your right-wing Christian bigots. “I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix.”

I assume you don't mean "my right wing bigots"? That said, who said that? Marriage should/is between two people that love each other.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

One can be a bigot against their own group. My grandmother is a sexist bigot against women... go figure, but she is. I would have to hear what theose other gay people are saying... I try not to catagorize without information.



I should have clarified that I was not insulting you. I am sure you won't lose sleep but I did not intend to be a jerk with that stupid comment.

That said, according to many religions homosexuality is a sin. I think that is dumb. I think religions are divisive and harmful. I think more harm has been caused by religion than can even EVER be compared to how much good it has done. Spirituality... great. Belief in God... great. Religion... generally horrible. It isn't religion that teaches tolerance and peace as those are already human traits.
Dolce & Gabbana Break The Internet Coming Out Against Gay Parenthood, Elton John Cries Vendetta - Forbes
The fashion power-duo, who are worth $1.65 billion each and are the 27th richest men in Italy, were the subject of a cover story for Italian weekly Panorama titled “Long-Live the [Traditional] Family,” in which the designers came out against the use of surrogate mothers while claiming children need “a mother and a father.” Dolce, in part of the interview, added “I’m not convinced with what I call chemical children, a rented uterus, semen selected from a catalogue.”
Gabbana went deeper into the concept of the “classical” Italian family, noting, “family isn’t a fleeting trend, in it there’s a sense of belonging.” In another point of the interview, they said “life has a natural trajectory, there are things that should not be altered.”

Twenty of those dollars, however, have come from an unlikely source: Courtney Hoffman, Courtney, who is lesbian, wrote, along with her donation, that, “As a member of the gay community, I would like to apologize for the mean spirited attacks on you and your business. I know many gay individuals who fully support your rights to stand up for your beliefs and run your business according to those beliefs. We are outraged at the level of hate and intolerance that has been directed at you and I sincerely hope you are able to rebuild.”
She added: “My girlfriend and I are small business owners, and we think there is a difference between operating in a public market space and then attaching the name of your business to a private event,” Hoffman said in a radio interview. “Like, if we were asked to set up at an anti-gay marriage rally, I mean, we would have to decline.”
Hoffman said the “horrible, hate-filled attacks” against the pizzeria and its Christian owners did not reflect the gay community that she has come to know and love. “The gay community that we know knows full well what it’s like to be condemned for doing nothing but living your life according to your beliefs,” she added. “We know so many gay individuals that fully support the freedom of living your life according to your beliefs and feel that freedom extends to everyone, even the people that we don’t agree with.”
Shortly after, two other members of the LGBTQ community made two sizable donations of $250 each.
Lesbian couple donate money to controversial Indiana pizzeria | LGBT Weekly

While you are right I wouldnt lose sleep over it, I didnt take your comments as an insult BTW. But I do appreciate your clarification. ;)

Its all well and good for people to deny God, religion and morality. However, unless you grew up with wolves in a cave, you HAVE been influenced by religion in the rule of law. You may not recognize your values as 'morals' (religious based morals that is) but they ARE. Of COURSE they are. They are taught and learned from the earliest of ages. If you WERE raised by wolves, few of the compassionate things we do as humans would make much sense.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Dolce & Gabbana Break The Internet Coming Out Against Gay Parenthood, Elton John Cries Vendetta - Forbes
The fashion power-duo, who are worth $1.65 billion each and are the 27th richest men in Italy, were the subject of a cover story for Italian weekly Panorama titled “Long-Live the [Traditional] Family,” in which the designers came out against the use of surrogate mothers while claiming children need “a mother and a father.” Dolce, in part of the interview, added “I’m not convinced with what I call chemical children, a rented uterus, semen selected from a catalogue.”
Gabbana went deeper into the concept of the “classical” Italian family, noting, “family isn’t a fleeting trend, in it there’s a sense of belonging.” In another point of the interview, they said “life has a natural trajectory, there are things that should not be altered.”

Twenty of those dollars, however, have come from an unlikely source: Courtney Hoffman, Courtney, who is lesbian, wrote, along with her donation, that, “As a member of the gay community, I would like to apologize for the mean spirited attacks on you and your business. I know many gay individuals who fully support your rights to stand up for your beliefs and run your business according to those beliefs. We are outraged at the level of hate and intolerance that has been directed at you and I sincerely hope you are able to rebuild.”
She added: “My girlfriend and I are small business owners, and we think there is a difference between operating in a public market space and then attaching the name of your business to a private event,” Hoffman said in a radio interview. “Like, if we were asked to set up at an anti-gay marriage rally, I mean, we would have to decline.”
Hoffman said the “horrible, hate-filled attacks” against the pizzeria and its Christian owners did not reflect the gay community that she has come to know and love. “The gay community that we know knows full well what it’s like to be condemned for doing nothing but living your life according to your beliefs,” she added. “We know so many gay individuals that fully support the freedom of living your life according to your beliefs and feel that freedom extends to everyone, even the people that we don’t agree with.”
Shortly after, two other members of the LGBTQ community made two sizable donations of $250 eachs.
Lesbian couple donate money to controversial Indiana pizzeria | LGBT Weekly

While you are right I wouldnt lose sleep over it, I didnt take your comments as an insult BTW. But I do appreciate your clarification. ;)

Its all well and good for people to deny God, religion and morality. However, unless you grew up with wolves in a cave, you HAVE been influenced by religion in the rule of law. You may not recognize your values as 'morals' (religious based morals that is) but they ARE. Of COURSE they are. They are taught and learned from the earliest of ages. If you WERE raised by wolves, few of the compassionate things we do as humans would make much sense.

Yeah... raised in the USA and Christians we are influenced. My point was that religion is not unique to those sentiments or traits.

I will read the rest of that later... tired... on holiday... just put kids to bed.... big day chilling on tropical beaches tomorrow... drinking some wine... Old School is on... can't be serious...
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

There is no legal right to discriminate! And there is also no moral right to do so.

The fact that these moron bakers think they have a religious right to discriminate is bull crap, un-Christian, evil, immoral and illegal. And not allowing public accommodations to discriminate is nothing like governments denying people the right to be free, the only thing this law prevents is asswipe bakers from discriminate and that is just great, no invalid use of government force but a government who enforces the civil rights of everybody in America to not discriminated against for their color, gender, age or religion.

A wedding cake is not a religious expression of faith, it is a party cake for 2 people who have joined in a lasting partnership and just because there are haters who want to deny gays the happiness of marriage is bad enough, but to deny them a cake when they are participating in a legally allowed practice of marriage is nothing short but petty and disgusting of these bakers.

If there is a heaven they will be judged for their crimes against their fellow man just like they are here on earth, it is not their place to judge last time I checked and it is not their place to decide who is allowed to marry or not, that is the people, not the Christian Taliban of America.

Pretty emotional post.

"to deny them a cake when they are participating in a legally allowed practice of marriage is nothing short but petty and disgusting of these bakers."

Denying them a cake elicits this kind of emotion?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Pretty emotional post.

"to deny them a cake when they are participating in a legally allowed practice of marriage is nothing short but petty and disgusting of these bakers."

Denying them a cake elicits this kind of emotion?

I think the emotion is spawned from the perceived intolerance and hypocrisy? How many of these "religious" businesses have provided services to divorcees and adulterers but deny it to gay couples?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Pretty emotional post.

"to deny them a cake when they are participating in a legally allowed practice of marriage is nothing short but petty and disgusting of these bakers."

Denying them a cake elicits this kind of emotion?

I think the emotion is spawned from the perceived intolerance and hypocrisy? How many of these "religious" businesses have provided services to divorcees and adulterers but deny it to gay couples?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I think the emotion is spawned from the perceived intolerance and hypocrisy? How many of these "religious" businesses have provided services to divorcees and adulterers but deny it to gay couples?

I'm curious, what services did they provide for adulterers and divorcees? Adulterer coming out parties (I assume the "other woman" and wife were there, too)? Divorce celebrations? Did they cater the divorce mediation meetings?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I'm curious, what services did they provide for adulterers and divorcees? Adulterer coming out parties (I assume the "other woman" and wife were there, too)? Divorce celebrations? Did they cater the divorce mediation meetings?

They provided floral arrangements, cakes, and other wedding services for adulterers and divorvees who were getting married. Jesus said nothing in the Bible about homosexuality, but he made his feelings very clear about serial monogamy.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

They provided floral arrangements, cakes, and other wedding services for adulterers and divorvees who were getting married. Jesus said nothing in the Bible about homosexuality, but he made his feelings very clear about serial monogamy.

And unless I read it wrong, they also said they serve gay people pizza, and flowers, and photo shoots, and so on. They didn't want to participate in anything having to do with the marriage ceremony, which they say they oppose.

They don't disapprove of heterosexual marriages.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

And unless I read it wrong, they also said they serve gay people pizza, and flowers, and photo shoots, and so on. They didn't want to participate in anything having to do with the marriage ceremony, which they say they oppose.

They don't disapprove of heterosexual marriages.

So if a self proclaimed Christian baker refused to provide a cake for a gay wedding ceremony and cited they did so because they perceive that as sinful but would provide a cake for an adulterer who was having their second marriage, you see nothing hypocritical about that?

They are both wedding ceremonies. Homosexuality and adulterers getting remarried are both sins. Why can the baker refuse one and both the other?

Matthew 19:9

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Direct commandment from Jesus. You divorce your wife when she did not cheat on you and marry another woman, then you are an adulterer. Why can a "religious" baker provide a cake for that wedding but not a same sex wedding? How is that not hypocritical?
 
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Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

So if a self proclaimed Christian baker refused to provide a cake for a gay wedding ceremony and cited they did so because they perceive that as sinful but would provide a cake for an adulterer who was having their second marriage, you see nothing hypocritical about that?

They are both wedding ceremonies. Homosexuality and adulterers getting remarried are both sins. Why can the baker refuse one and both the other?

Matthew 19:9

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Direct commandment from Jesus. You divorce your wife when she did not cheat on you and marry another woman, then you are an adulterer. Why can a "religious" baker provide a cake for that wedding but not a same sex wedding? How is that not hypocritical?

Please spare me the religious quotes, CT. I observe no religion.

Once again, according to them, they don't approve of same sex marriage. They approve of heterosexual marriage. So that's a distinct difference there. They are talking about the occasion they are asked to participate in. One they approve of, one they don't.

So do you suspect the couple who asks them to provide a service for their heterosexual marriage shares intimate details of their past with them? Like, when John & Mary go in to order a wedding cake, do you think they tell the baker (a stranger) "Hey, did you know that John was actually married before but he was cheating on her with me and now we're getting married"?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Please spare me the religious quotes, CT. I observe no religion.

Once again, according to them, they don't approve of same sex marriage. They approve of heterosexual marriage. So that's a distinct difference there. They are talking about the occasion they are asked to participate in. One they approve of, one they don't.

So do you suspect the couple who asks them to provide a service for their heterosexual marriage shares intimate details of their past with them? Like, when John & Mary go in to order a wedding cake, do you think they tell the baker (a stranger) "Hey, did you know that John was actually married before but he was cheating on her with me and now we're getting married"?

If the baker is truly concerned with displeasing their God by providing a cake for a wedding that endorses a sinful behavior, then they probably should find out if the couple had been married before.

It is HYPOCRISY. You know it. Whether or not the baker should be free to refuse service is a separate issue. But they are hypocrites.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Please spare me the religious quotes, CT. I observe no religion.

Once again, according to them, they don't approve of same sex marriage. They approve of heterosexual marriage. So that's a distinct difference there. They are talking about the occasion they are asked to participate in. One they approve of, one they don't.

So do you suspect the couple who asks them to provide a service for their heterosexual marriage shares intimate details of their past with them? Like, when John & Mary go in to order a wedding cake, do you think they tell the baker (a stranger) "Hey, did you know that John was actually married before but he was cheating on her with me and now we're getting married"?

By providing pizza for those people to, from behind a counter. They didnt actually bring pizza from everything we know about the business to any wedding. And she said provide pizza for a gay wedding, not actually "cater" a wedding as some are talking about, as in going to the actual wedding.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

If the baker is truly concerned with displeasing their God by providing a cake for a wedding that endorses a sinful behavior, then they probably should find out if the couple had been married before.

It is HYPOCRISY. You know it. Whether or not the baker should be free to refuse service is a separate issue. But they are hypocrites.

No, sorry, I don't see the hypocrisy. I don't agree with their views, but I can tell the difference between a same sex marriage celebration and a heterosexual marriage celebration, so I don't see them as being hypocritical.

If they served admitted adulterers in their stores but refused to serve gay people, yes, that is hypocritical. But in the recent cases, they do serve the gay people. They just don't serve them at their same sex marriage ceremonies.
 
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