• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed[W:1581]

Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Selling a cake to someone does not equal giving up your own beliefs or change how you think. If you sell a shirt a Muslim wears to their Mosque does that make you a Muslim? Or any less of a Christian? Does it mean you can no longer believe anything you want? No, no, and no. It means you sold him a shirt.

In your opinion. Others feel differently.

A business does not have individual rights. You don't have to let blacks, gays, women, or anyone else into your home. Your private residence. You don't have to talk to gay people. When you open a business though and open it up to the public there's a different set of rules.

No, a business doesn't have individual rights. It can't. Its an inanimate thing. The owner however does.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Doing such would open them up to a libel lawsuit. Not going to happen.

The store owner said it themselves. They would not refuse service to anyone that walked into their store to buy a pizza. So yes, they were not talking about your scenario.

That is not what she said at all. In fact, the owner said that if a gay person came into their restaurant and asked them to "provide" pizza for their wedding, they would have to refuse. They didn't mention what everyone is assuming catering to be here. There is no way to fit a group that could eat 20 pizzas in that small little place. So those pizzas would be to go. She, the owner, was talking about the situation I described.

And no, the reporter would not be libel for slander, because what I described is a form of catering. The food providers do not have to be present at the event or even deliver the food to the actual event to be considered "catering" the event.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

They can have any personal beliefs they want but wrapping it in religion is what is wrong. No one is asking someone to create a cake for a gay wedding and sign off on the marriage certificate. This is about commerce and the only versus in the bible that deal with commerce are about being fair in business to the people you trade with and your workers. There are a ton of versus regarding trading with people that you may not agree with. There's no verse that says "You can not trade cloth that will be used to worship an idol" but plenty of the Jews trading with other groups.

I would disagree - they can hold whatever personal beliefs they may, religious or otherwise. Personally, I have no problem with catering a gay wedding, but I respect those who prefer not to. That doesn't mean I agree with them, but I'll continue to respect deeply held personal beliefs regardless of the consequences. I am a Christian, and I don't believe I am responsible for the doings of others. I don't judge them and I'm not required to answer for them. Therefore, I will respect the right of others to do as they deem fit. That doesn't constitute agreement or endorsement - just a level of tolerance I expect to be returned. Without that mutual respect and tolerance, all deals are off.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

That is not what she said at all. In fact, the owner said that if a gay person came into their restaurant and asked them to "provide" pizza for their wedding, they would have to refuse. They didn't mention what everyone is assuming catering to be here. There is no way to fit a group that could eat 20 pizzas in that small little place. So those pizzas would be to go. She, the owner, was talking about the situation I described.

And no, the reporter would not be libel for slander, because what I described is a form of catering. The food providers do not have to be present at the event or even deliver the food to the actual event to be considered "catering" the event.

When the reporter stated "while the owners say" that means that the owners are being quoted. If a reporter changes that quote then they can be sued for libel. (which is different from slander by the by).
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Good morning, Kal'Stang. :2wave:

I know. It's just unreal to me that the discussion about "rights" on this topic have deteriorated to this point in our Country. Emotion, rather than logic, seems to have taken over on what should be a dry legal matter. Maybe that's how things get handled these days, on both sides of the coin - create chaos to get attention. When I see the "pushback" that is taking place with the financial outpouring for the pizzeria, it appears that both sides are digging in their heels to show where they stand. What's next?

Good morning. :2wave:

Actually this type of thing has been going on for as long as I can remember personally. :shrug:
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I would disagree - they can hold whatever personal beliefs they may, religious or otherwise. Personally, I have no problem with catering a gay wedding, but I respect those who prefer not to. That doesn't mean I agree with them, but I'll continue to respect deeply held personal beliefs regardless of the consequences. I am a Christian, and I don't believe I am responsible for the doings of others. I don't judge them and I'm not required to answer for them. Therefore, I will respect the right of others to do as they deem fit. That doesn't constitute agreement or endorsement - just a level of tolerance I expect to be returned. Without that mutual respect and tolerance, all deals are off.

If only more people thought this way.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

So basically, anyone can start a religion with any set of rules, and those would be legit religious values?
Some do, like the Pastafarians
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

When the reporter stated "while the owners say" that means that the owners are being quoted. If a reporter changes that quote then they can be sued for libel. (which is different from slander by the by).

No they would not be reasonably libel. And it could also be that the owners consider catering from their pizzeria to be the form I said. They don't cater at all, from everything I've read, so why would they be talking about something they don't do to begin with? And that is not how she, the owner, phrased the refusal. She said they would not "provide" (her exact quote, after mentioning in her hypothetical that the gays walked into their shop) pizza for a gay wedding. Did they even deliver at all?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

So give them your money to make a point? I don't understand that line of thinking. If it's a politician, a charity, or a preacher it makes sense.

By this logic, I can have a profitable business by simply claiming I won't serve gays and then moan about how the ebil libruls are ruining me.

Funny, just two days ago, liberals of all stripes were clamoring about how the market was making itself heard with regard to this pizza shop, and now you're all butt hurt that the market is making itself heard.. Jees man, get your stories straight.. :)


Tim-
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Ahh yes, the old "liberals love Muslims" meme.

Also, do people really still believe the Fox News version of that "give them jobs" deal? Really? You never actually bothered to go watch the actual video and see what was actually said? Weren't you the least bit curious?



My how you assume..

Does it make you feel bigger when you put down others?

For the 1,897,987th time, I have no access whatsoever to Fox News, nor Russ Limbaugh nor do I ascribe to very many conservative principles.

Do you ever watch Fox?

maybe you should.

have a god day, we are done
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

In other words people are required to give up their personal beliefs and everyone must think alike in order to own a business. Thanks but no thanks. Living in such a society would be extremely boring and extremely restrictive.



No, the public never has a right to violate individual Rights.
That's the goal, either bend to liberal thinking or be denied the opportunity to make a living
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Good morning, Kal'Stang. :2wave:

I know. It's just unreal to me that the discussion about "rights" on this topic have deteriorated to this point in our Country. Emotion, rather than logic, seems to have taken over on what should be a dry legal matter. Maybe that's how things get handled these days, on both sides of the coin - create chaos to get attention. When I see the "pushback" that is taking place with the financial outpouring for the pizzeria, it appears that both sides are digging in their heels to show where they stand. What's next?



In sociological terms the heightened reactions are a result of a deepening divide.

As the nation see its leaders engage in childish name calling and bully tactics in DC, they grow more and more resentful of the "other" side, and more easily become hysterical, which for the left is never a long trip, go to a labor rally and listen to some speeches.

The nation has had six years of confrontation on just about every file. Ferguson becomes a bigger issue because the first black president has to face it somehow. Having promised everything to everyone on every file, a simple shooting becomes a right-left issue because of a push for gun control.

And anytime there is push, there is push back. It grows more severe as one side sees itself as being pushed into too many corners, 'Damn now we can't even say "no" to a customer for any reason if they're ______________ fill in the blank.'

and then there is the aspect, for both sides, that they have a "just cause" whether it be middle ages Biblical morality or a hysterical reaction to a predatory planted question designed to pull some triggers......the perfect storm if you will, and a race baited, hyper sensitive "stupid voter" waiting to be fed a reason....
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Sure it has an accepted definition, but you seem not to realize that both sides are bigoted. This "I'm intolerant of the intolerant" philosophy of the left wing would be laughable if it wasn't so damaging.

The owner states their deeply held religious beliefs and the response from the left is to destroy, nothing even hinting at being constructive.

First, I don't condone and do condemn what some wrote and said about/to the pizzeria. As far as I'm concerned, threats in social media, whether intended as serious or not, should be prosecuted, the person convicted of a crime, and thrown off the media for a long time, and people leaving bogus reviews should be cut off from that service, permanently if they can. And it's perfectly fine to describe some of that reaction as bigotry.

But the owner didn't state his religious beliefs - the owner stated an intention to discriminate, which you don't have to have any modifiers to know that I mean to deny service to someone because of their sexual orientation. It she's said, "I don't mind serving anyone of any race in my restaurant, but I won't cater interracial weddings" what is the appropriate interpretation?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Ahh yes, the old "liberals love Muslims" meme.

Liberals don't say much about Muslims because if they treated Muslims like they do Christians, they'd get themselves killed.

Also, do people really still believe the Fox News version of that "give them jobs" deal? Really? You never actually bothered to go watch the actual video and see what was actually said? Weren't you the least bit curious?

I wasn't. Besides, it's old news. According to this administration, old news doesn't count.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

If selling someone a good or service means you can no longer believe what you want to it's a pretty irrational view

Yes it is a pretty irrational view. So why force people to go against what they believe?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

When the reporter stated "while the owners say" that means that the owners are being quoted. If a reporter changes that quote then they can be sued for libel. (which is different from slander by the by).

Not quite. Libel is written word, and as such only is an issue IF both incorrect and causes harm to one's reputation.

The changing of a quote is an ethical issue, one which like all ethics have varying degrees of application. Some outlets, most actually, allow some "cleaning up" of a quote" for syntax etc.

However, in the end, the reader has an expectation of quotation marks meaning the exact words of the speaker. In broadcast, the rules are broader as a direct quote can come in two forms, the exact words of a recording or the reporter saying "...he says...." which implies a quote.

In any regard, if it is wrong and caused harm of any kind, they have a case for slander what we now call a defamation suit. I don't know the laws there, but if the story is as suggested, that the reporter presented a hypothetical and touched off this **** storm, they may never have to work again, but it won't have anything to do with a mis quote, but rather intent. It's a good case to show the reporter and the outlet had an intent to create severe and damaging reaction.

I was never sued successfully but threatened and served enough to learn the fine points of how not to destroy your own reputation.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

What? Do you think that gay's don't like pizza or something? Yeah, you are definitely not an expert. So why say something so lacking in knowledge? Personally I'm all for gays having a pizza party on their wedding day. To any business that wants to cater it. But I don't believe in forcing anyone to serve anyone else either. This is not the 1200's. We don't live a serf life.

I love the CON spin you attempt. no one said gays don't like pizza- did say who would cater a wedding with pizza... :doh

This isn't the 1200's nor is it the 1950's where entire blocks of people can be refused service because your rather warped interpretation of a religion is used to cover bigotry. I doubt even the most warped CON could really claim a small business owner is a serf... a lack of knowledge I'd say... if the 21st century has a serf equiv it might be more the minimum wage earner than a pizza shop owner... :peace
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Liberals don't say much about Muslims because if they treated Muslims like they do Christians, they'd get themselves killed.



I wasn't. Besides, it's old news. According to this administration, old news doesn't count.

And gays would die a horrible death.....
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

But the owner didn't state his religious beliefs - the owner stated an intention to discriminate, which you don't have to have any modifiers to know that I mean to deny service to someone because of their sexual orientation. It she's said, "I don't mind serving anyone of any race in my restaurant, but I won't cater interracial weddings" what is the appropriate interpretation?

Yes actually they did state their religious beliefs. And it is that religious belief that is the reasoning behind their discrimination.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

And gays would die a horrible death.....

Where on this planet are Christians beheading gays or throwing them off high buildings? (Please bear in mind that old news doesn't count).
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Yes actually they did state their religious beliefs. And it is that religious belief that is the reasoning behind their discrimination.

they were approached because of their religious beliefs.

It was predatory from the get go, and where there are legitimate applications for that tactic, this is not one of them. This outfit had no reason to be in the media other than their views, they had made no public announcements and had sought no coverage on their own.

That is significant from both a legal and ethical view, on an ethics point this is a dog's breakfast floating on a turd in the sewer.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Yes it is a pretty irrational view. So why force people to go against what they believe?

Sigh... more CON spin-

Do you believe in all forms welfare? Do you pay taxes to support welfare?

If someone doesn't believe in interracial marriage should they be forced to wait on such a couple in a restaurant?

Can a fundie doctor refuse to attend a badly hurt gay man?

We are constantly 'forced' to do things we'd rather not or don't believe in.

It;s called putting on your big boy pants and living in the real world rather than a false narrative the CONs love to spin about 'freedoms'....
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Liberals don't say much about Muslims because if they treated Muslims like they do Christians, they'd get themselves killed.

<snip>

Why would American Liberals have much to say about Muslims, when said religious group is so small in numbers, few people have interactions with Muslims, whether social or business.

American Liberals only have things to say about SOME who call themselves Christian. There are very few who attack or denigrate all who call themselves Christian and then there is the ever so small matter that many Liberals are Christians.

For SOME who call themselves Christian seemingly are incapable of seeing any other person as Christian if that other person doesn't believe exactly the same things about their religion.

The whole "Christians are being persecuted" meme is derived solely from a world view based on fantasy - at least in America.

The "Liberals say nothing about Muslims" meme denies the efforts by Liberals in those parts of the world where Islamic fundamentalism does such great harm
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I love the CON spin you attempt. no one said gays don't like pizza- did say who would cater a wedding with pizza... :doh

In case you didn't notice or didn't read far enough that particular post was designed to illicit a type of response. Which it did quite nicely in SMTA's post following that particular post.

This isn't the 1200's nor is it the 1950's where entire blocks of people can be refused service because your rather warped interpretation of a religion is used to cover bigotry. I doubt even the most warped CON could really claim a small business owner is a serf... a lack of knowledge I'd say... if the 21st century has a serf equiv it might be more the minimum wage earner than a pizza shop owner... :peace

If forced to provide a service that they don't wish to provide then yes they are. Just like serfs were forced to provide for the Lords back in the medieval days.
 
Back
Top Bottom