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Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

it might be what the citizens want, but it might not.

our system isn't a direct democracy, so we can't concretely say the collective wants it.

but when it comes to rights, we shouldn't be letting a group vote decide anyway

I realize its not a direct democracy, nor would I want it to be. Suffice to say if its not, the next election will reflect that.
 
The Indiana statute has two features the federal RFRA—and most state RFRAs—do not. First, the Indiana law explicitly allows any for-profit business to assert a right to “the free exercise of religion.” The federal RFRA doesn’t contain such language, and neither does any of the state RFRAs except South Carolina’s; in fact, Louisiana and Pennsylvania, explicitly exclude for-profit businesses from the protection of their RFRAs.

The new Indiana statute also contains this odd language: “A person whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened, by a violation of this chapter may assert the violation or impending violation as a claim or defense in a judicial or administrative proceeding, regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity is a party to the proceeding.” (My italics.) Neither the federal RFRA, nor 18 of the 19 state statutes cited by the Post, says anything like this; only the Texas RFRA, passed in 1999, contains similar language.

What these words mean is, first, that the Indiana statute explicitly recognizes that a for-profit corporation has “free exercise” rights matching those of individuals or churches. A lot of legal thinkers thought that idea was outlandish until last year’s decision in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, in which the Court’s five conservatives interpreted the federal RFRA to give some corporate employers a religious veto over their employees’ statutory right to contraceptive coverage.

Second, the Indiana statute explicitly makes a business’s “free exercise” right a defense against a private lawsuit by another person, rather than simply against actions brought by government. Why does this matter? Well, there’s a lot of evidence that the new wave of “religious freedom” legislation was impelled, at least in part, by a panic over a New Mexico state-court decision, Elane Photography v. Willock. In that case, a same-sex couple sued a professional photography studio that refused to photograph the couple’s wedding. New Mexico law bars discrimination in “public accommodations” on the basis of sexual orientation. The studio said that New Mexico’s RFRA nonetheless barred the suit; but the state’s Supreme Court held that the RFRA did not apply “because the government is not a party.”

Remarkably enough, soon after, language found its way into the Indiana statute to make sure that no Indiana court could ever make a similar decision. Democrats also offered the Republican legislative majority a chance to amend the new act to say that it did not permit businesses to discriminate; they voted that amendment down.
 
A business owner should not be able to turn about blacks because he doesn't like black people or mexicans or gays or anyone else. They don't have to open a business. If they do....they have to abide by the laws of this land.

What do you mean by "the laws of this land," if anything? There are hundreds of thousands of laws in the U.S., both state and federal. Congress used its power to regulate interstate commerce as the basis for the public accommodations provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the Supreme Court first upheld those provisions in Katzenbach v. McClung and Heart of Atlanta Motel. But there is no constitutional basis for prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations on the basis of sexual orientation.

Discrimination on that basis is prohibited by some, but not all, state laws. And even where it is, those laws may not violate the First Amendment. The Supreme Court held the Massachusetts and New Jersey public accommodations laws unconstitutional for just that reason in the Hurley and Dale cases. Homosexuals don't get to trample on the First Amendment rights of other people--and if they don't like that, too G--damned bad. The First Amendment isn't going anywhere.
 
So I take it you don't have any violations, and I'm speaking of things that happened previously. None.

What are you talking about. Anything that happened previously would be irrelevant. The law provided a legal basis to discriminate, whether or not people would take advantage of the law would be speculation. As it appears, there at least were a few that were lining up because they have been outspoken...but we won't know because Pence got busted and the law won't take effect in the form he had hoped for.
 
What do you mean by "the laws of this land," if anything? There are hundreds of thousands of laws in the U.S., both state and federal. Congress used its power to regulate interstate commerce as the basis for the public accommodations provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the Supreme Court first upheld those provisions in Katzenbach v. McClung and Heart of Atlanta Motel. But there is no constitutional basis for prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations on the basis of sexual orientation.

Discrimination on that basis is prohibited by some, but not all, state laws. And even where it is, those laws may not violate the First Amendment. The Supreme Court held the Massachusetts and New Jersey public accommodations laws unconstitutional for just that reason in the Hurley and Dale cases. Homosexuals don't get to trample on the First Amendment rights of other people--and if they don't like that, too G--damned bad. The First Amendment isn't going anywhere.

LOL....you are in for a rude awakening my friend if you truly believe what you posted. Religion is not a shield that allows people to write their own rules. Sorry Charlie.
 
What are you talking about. Anything that happened previously would be irrelevant. The law provided a legal basis to discriminate, whether or not people would take advantage of the law would be speculation. As it appears, there at least were a few that were lining up because they have been outspoken...but we won't know because Pence got busted and the law won't take effect in the form he had hoped for.

Oh, c'mon. Tell me about all Indiana's civil rights violations, and discriminations cases that are of merit prior to this legislation. It's relevant. You're claiming that this legislation is a license to do something there's no evidence of ever have occurred in any significant manner.
 
But the fact that a "solution" caused the unintended morale drop in a front line combat unit in the opening days of a war proves my point doesn't it?

You served in the navy (thanks for that) I have friends who did/do as well, and I hear about the drama and pregnancies occurring while at sea. In some cases its a significant threat to military readiness because now the military has to rotate people, often in the middle of a deployment.

It didn't cause the morale drop. The guy, who could just as easily entered with or without DADT in place, either pre-DADT or post-DADT, by simply lying, caused the drop in morale you mentioned. Sexually assaulting a person, male or female is still a crime.

Most ships don't get that many pregnancies. We have a lot of people. I was on a carrier for 4 and 1/2 years. We did have pregnancies, but very few (this is why there is a mandatory pregnancy test given to all women 2 weeks after deploying). We also had people have family members die or get sick. We had people get hurt (heck had a guy get shot because he was playing quick draw, and a few more fall overboard, one simply didn't show back up from liberty in San Diego, but had his buddy claim he was there without verification, man overboards for 2 days straight, including calling GQ to try to find this guy til the buddy finally confessed that he covered for him). Stuff happens. That is life aboard ship. Most pregnancies do not occur because of sexual contact aboard ship or even in a liberty port, but rather in home port.
 
Hiding behind religion to practice bigotry is a crock of chit. If they held their religious convictions so strongly they wouldn't be open. They would have to refuse service to all "sinners".

This is exactly what I thought of the moment I heard of Indiana's Religious Freedom law. Contrary to what was being reported, the Indiana law is slightly different from the federal law. The federal law, H.R. 1308, essentially keeps the government from intruding on an individual's right to practice his/her religion of choice as he/she sees fit as long as doing so doesn't intruded on another person's First Amendment rights nor violates existing laws. Indiana's religious freedom law, S. 568, is similar with one distinctive difference:

Sec. 3. (a) As used in this chapter, "exercise of religion" means the practice or observance of religion.
(b) The term includes a person's ability to: (1) act; or (2) refuse to act; in a manner that is substantially motivated by the person's sincerely held religious belief, regardless of whether the religious belief is compulsory or central to a larger system of religious belief.
Sec. 4. As used in this chapter, "person" means an individual, an association, a partnership, a limited liability company, a corporation, a church, a religious institution, an estate, a trust, a foundation, or any other legal entity.

In other words, if I (insert religion here) am convinced that you don't...say...hold the same religious beliefs as I do, I could choose not to serve you. Of course, we all know that opposing another person's religious belief isn't the real intent behind Indiana's religious freedom law. It's to provide cover for business owners on a completely different social and moral issue. Nonetheless, the law gives business owners cover not to be prosecuted on discriminatory grounds by virtue of hiding behind religion.

Think of it this way...

During the era of Jim Crow, if a White business owner refused to serve a Black customer, the rationale was "You're a Negro; I don't serve Negros." Despite being a socially accept practice in the South, the fact of the matter was a Black man can't change the pigment of his skin. Nonetheless, the business owner's refusal to serve the Black man ultimately came to be viewed as a discriminatory practice; you're singling out a person based on the color of their skin.

Under Indiana's religious freedom law, a business owner can do much the same thing only this time such refusal is subjective. It's based on the business owner's belief that the customer doesn't hold the same religious beliefs or adheres to the same religious convictions. So, if I'm a pastor of a church, a cake maker, a florist, a wedding planner, a wedding photographer, a jeweler and I believe the customer before me is gay or an Atheist or a Muslim and I'm a Christian, I can refuse to sell to them or provide the desired service based strictly on my religious conviction because doing so violates my religious beliefs.

To that, I have to ask, "How are you harmed?" by providing such services or selling a given products to someone you think might not hold the same religious beliefs as you? How does buying a product or service infringe on another person's religious rights? How does my buying a given product or services from a Christian, a Muslim or even a Buddhist as the proprietor interfere with said proprietor's ability to practice their religion of choice? To my way of thinking, if a person's religious believes are that strongly held that they refusal to sell me a product or provide a service, it's not the religion the person holds dear. It's their bias and bigotry.

Now, I've danced around the true intent of Indiana's law and I've done so on purpose. So, I'll just come out with it here. It's clear that this is an attempt to protect business owners from selling a product or providing a service to gays and lesbians not merely anyone whose religious convictions aren't the same as the proprietor's. As such, that's discrimination, plain and simple.
 
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WTF? I could not let this go. The "three men" raising "three little girls" were their widowed father, his dead wife's brother, and his childhood best friend. Not only did the childhood best friend never at ANY time claim to be father to any of those girls, including Stephanie - one of them WAS her father, and the other one would have had to impregnate his sister in order to be her father, so no, he never claimed it either. The show had nothing - zero - to do with sexuality at all - including incest, which you implied here. It was as pure and non-sexual as any show could be and still remain popular.

Wrong. It was Season 1: Episode 3. They were in her Kindergarten class and the teacher asked who they were and both Joey and Jesse claimed to be "this sweet little girl's father". I love the series. Have every season on DVD.

And I never implied incest at all. I can see where you might have assumed that, but that was not the implication. If anything, I implied a same sex parenting situation, where only one "parent" had ties to the children being raised by people of the same sex. I also didn't imply anything sexual going on. You are the one who went to sexual thoughts when I was referring to parenting, specifically same sex parenting situations and different family situations than what most people had been used to seeing on sitcoms.
 
What are you talking about. Anything that happened previously would be irrelevant. The law provided a legal basis to discriminate, whether or not people would take advantage of the law would be speculation. As it appears, there at least were a few that were lining up because they have been outspoken...but we won't know because Pence got busted and the law won't take effect in the form he had hoped for.

Oh, c'mon. Tell me about all Indiana's civil rights violations, and discriminations cases that are of merit prior to this legislation. It's relevant. You're claiming that this legislation is a license to do something there's no evidence of ever have occurred in any significant manner.

I don't think that's exactly what DisneyDude was referring to. I think what he meant here...

...there at least were a few that were lining up because they have been outspoken...

...was that there likely were a few very powerful and influential business people who were pressuring the Indiana Governor/legislature (GOP) to enact a law that protected them against refusing to sell a product or provide a service to gays and lesbians without it being so obvious. Religious freedom provides such cover, i.e., "I don't have to provide a service to a gay couple because homosexuality is a sin and I'm a Christian. Therefore, I refuse to sell to you."

Problem here is how would you know that a customer is, in fact, gay unless they told you? Sure, in some cases you can just look at a person and tell (i.e., mannerisms, behavior, voice inflection), but it's not quite so obvious with some people. So, unless they tell you how do you know?
 
Anyone remember this a while back?

New Mexico Governor's Hairstylist Refuses Service Over Gay-Marriage Stance | TIME.com

I wonder how people feel about the hair stylist refusing service over the governor's beliefs and lifestyle choices. Why should they be some hero for "equal rights" when in fact people are acting equally on their beliefs, just on the other side of the fence?

People shouldn't be forced to do things that go against their convictions or moral character, period.
 
I don't think that's exactly what DisneyDude was referring to. I think what he meant here...



...was that there likely were a few very powerful and influential business people who were pressuring the Indiana Governor/legislature (GOP) to enact a law that protected them against refusing to sell a product or provide a service to gays and lesbians without it being so obvious. Religious freedom provides such cover, i.e., "I don't have to provide a service to a gay couple because homosexuality is a sin and I'm a Christian. Therefore, I refuse to sell to you."

Problem here is how would you know that a customer is, in fact, gay unless they told you? Sure, in some cases you can just look at a person and tell (i.e., mannerisms, behavior, voice inflection), but it's not quite so obvious with some people. So, unless they tell you how do you know?

I understand your point, as I have what others have previously said, with my own interpretation of their objections. That is, that I clearly understand that gays are not protected necessarily. I don't understand why they actually have to be. Are you saying that Christians will not accomodate gay business as a rule because of this law? I don't think that's the case at all.
 
1.)???? If you agree with me, what the hell are you arguing with me about????
2/)God. It's like being trapped in a room with the DP version of Charlie Sheen.

1.) not my fault you made up a strawman and moved the goal post
2.) failed insults wont change the fact your claims were destroyed and proven wrong

hint: being opposed to SSM is not the same as illegal discriminating against a gay couple, they are VERY different
at no time were we discussing simply being opposed, glad i could help you with that mistake. You're welcome
facts win again
 
People shouldn't be forced to do things that go against their convictions or moral character, period.

why say things when you dont even really mean them . . .
convictions and moral character are subjective things that dont matter to laws and rights.
want a quick example that will make you disagree with your own statement? many many people have convictions and a moral character about when and when they would not have an abortion, yet you would be fine with forcing them to go against those . . . . . :shrug:
 
Anyone remember this a while back?

New Mexico Governor's Hairstylist Refuses Service Over Gay-Marriage Stance | TIME.com

I wonder how people feel about the hair stylist refusing service over the governor's beliefs and lifestyle choices. Why should they be some hero for "equal rights" when in fact people are acting equally on their beliefs, just on the other side of the fence?

People shouldn't be forced to do things that go against their convictions or moral character, period.

LMAO good luck on that. I don't think Governors face discrimination as per regular people of color, sexual orientation, etc...
 
The difference is....you don't see other religions trying to use the law as a shield to practice their bigotry. It is the radical Christian fundamentalists who are trying to politicize the law to allow their discrimination.

In answer to your questions:
1. I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. I would say that I think religions are free to have their own beliefs and preach their own beliefs even if in opposition to the government. They are, however, obligated to abide by the laws. They can't use their religion to write their own rules.
2. No. Government should stay out of religion and religion should stay out of government. People should be able to practice any religion in their homes and in their churches and even in the public arena when it does not infringe upon the rights of others.
3. Criminalizing the views of the religious? I don't see anyone doing that. I guess I would only support that if the religion was involved in something like animal sacrifice or other illegal activities. I do support the right of the government to enforce anti-discrimination laws. A business owner should not be able to turn about blacks because he doesn't like black people or mexicans or gays or anyone else. They don't have to open a business. If they do....they have to abide by the laws of this land.

The religious are only asking that their religious liberty be given equal weight in the courts consideration with other civil liberties. This Law doesn't determine outcome, it enables reasonable outcomes for all parties.

The reason I asked you the questions is because I don't believe you considered the other side. Let me give you an example: In Catholicism one receives grace via sacraments (rituals administered by the church under the authority of Christ). The most commonly thought of sacraments are baptism and communion, however matrimony is also a sacrament. This means that to the Catholic marriage as the church prescribes is an integral item of faith by which a believer receives grace and therefore in part receives salvation. Church doctrine is clear that marriage is between one man and one woman.

Given the above information, certainly you could understand how some may believe that it would be improper to participate in a marriage (seen as a sacrament in their religious understanding) that does not conform to their standards of a righteous ceremony, while at the same time not feeling discriminatory but using discretion in their own religious life.

If one were to go to a kosher butcher and ask that they provide ham for an upcoming Easter celebration, certainly they would expect the butcher to decline, no?
 
LMAO good luck on that. I don't think Governors face discrimination as per regular people of color, sexual orientation, etc...
So, some discrimination is ok? I agree, and one has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason they please.
 
Yeah...it was just a short clip off you tube. I could probably find the whole thing and post it, but really who is going to sit and watch a 15 minute link. I thought the editing was a little annoying myself...be that as it may....it does bring home the issue and that is....Pence is either lying....or did a really poor job in this interview. I'm not sure which. I believe it is the former because there would be no need to change the law if it didn't do what the critics say that it does. And it would explain why he refused to answer the question....because he knew the answer....and knew it wasn't going to play out well for what he was trying to do.

:shrug: the answer is simply that it's not a yes/no question, it's actually a slightly complex issue which only touches on that, which is what Pence was trying to get at. But ole George wasn't interested in that - he wanted a sound bite and he wanted one that would help kick off the War on Gays rhetoric for Hilllary 2016.
 
The religious are only asking that their religious liberty be given equal weight in the courts consideration with other civil liberties. This Law doesn't determine outcome, it enables reasonable outcomes for all parties.

The reason I asked you the questions is because I don't believe you considered the other side. Let me give you an example: In Catholicism one receives grace via sacraments (rituals administered by the church under the authority of Christ). The most commonly thought of sacraments are baptism and communion, however matrimony is also a sacrament. This means that to the Catholic marriage as the church prescribes is an integral item of faith by which a believer receives grace and therefore in part receives salvation. Church doctrine is clear that marriage is between one man and one woman.

Given the above information, certainly you could understand how some may believe that it would be improper to participate in a marriage (seen as a sacrament in their religious understanding) that does not conform to their standards of a righteous ceremony, while at the same time not feeling discriminatory but using discretion in their own religious life.

If one were to go to a kosher butcher and ask that they provide ham for an upcoming Easter celebration, certainly they would expect the butcher to decline, no?

Not if they are not asking if the people had been divorced or if they use birth control or if they have been involved in other longterm sinful behavior, that they continue to be involved in. Catholics are supposed to ask the Church for an annulment of their marriage after a divorce in order to get remarried. But if someone isn't Catholic, they aren't likely to ask for such an annulment from their own church, so why would the Catholic baker cater a "2nd wedding" for someone who hasn't received a proper annulment of their previous one? That is adultery in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
 
LOL....you are in for a rude awakening my friend if you truly believe what you posted. Religion is not a shield that allows people to write their own rules. Sorry Charlie.

I believe everything I write here. And you are not my friend.
 
It didn't cause the morale drop. The guy, who could just as easily entered with or without DADT in place, either pre-DADT or post-DADT, by simply lying, caused the drop in morale you mentioned. Sexually assaulting a person, male or female is still a crime.

Most ships don't get that many pregnancies. We have a lot of people. I was on a carrier for 4 and 1/2 years. We did have pregnancies, but very few (this is why there is a mandatory pregnancy test given to all women 2 weeks after deploying). We also had people have family members die or get sick. We had people get hurt (heck had a guy get shot because he was playing quick draw, and a few more fall overboard, one simply didn't show back up from liberty in San Diego, but had his buddy claim he was there without verification, man overboards for 2 days straight, including calling GQ to try to find this guy til the buddy finally confessed that he covered for him). Stuff happens. That is life aboard ship. Most pregnancies do not occur because of sexual contact aboard ship or even in a liberty port, but rather in home port.

All I can do is go by his words. He is a combat vet, a very intelligent man, and a close friend. I trust him when he says it destroyed morale, and I can see why the DADT environment made it difficult to deal with.

As I understand it-at least 6 and up to 10 pregnancies is remarkable, on a carrier even, though Ive heard high numbers on smaller ships. This indicates a real problem-especially considering the enormous expenses to the taxpayer, and burden on the military that didn't exist before.

And the initial prego check at 2 weeks is because it establishes a baseline that the woman is not prego on departure. There are more sensitive and specific tests, but they are more expensive. Im not denying stuff happens, Im saying THIS STUFF happens.
 
Wrong. It was Season 1: Episode 3. They were in her Kindergarten class and the teacher asked who they were and both Joey and Jesse claimed to be "this sweet little girl's father". I love the series. Have every season on DVD.

And I never implied incest at all. I can see where you might have assumed that, but that was not the implication. If anything, I implied a same sex parenting situation, where only one "parent" had ties to the children being raised by people of the same sex. I also didn't imply anything sexual going on. You are the one who went to sexual thoughts when I was referring to parenting, specifically same sex parenting situations and different family situations than what most people had been used to seeing on sitcoms.

Its odd that you know the episodes by heart, but then again my little sister and I would argue over who got to watch what, especially on Friday nights. I always wanted to watch macgyver, she'd fight me all she could-her heart out (and my little bro-the "swing voter", on occasion) to watch Full house.

Do you think that the incidence you cite has more to do with making a comment on SSM and "nontraditional" families, or the characters desire to not make the little girl feel out of place and loved? For the record, I like the show-still do.
 
Anyone remember this a while back?

New Mexico Governor's Hairstylist Refuses Service Over Gay-Marriage Stance | TIME.com

I wonder how people feel about the hair stylist refusing service over the governor's beliefs and lifestyle choices. Why should they be some hero for "equal rights" when in fact people are acting equally on their beliefs, just on the other side of the fence?

People shouldn't be forced to do things that go against their convictions or moral character, period.

Amen. The fact is very few gays will be denied a precious wedding cake over this, and very few devout Religious people will take an absolute stand over this.

But the govt is so ingrained, and so manipulative that people are distracted over this.

I'd like to see a compromise reached, and in fact can easily see how that would be accomplished.

But too many see this as an ideological argument that need not be-and assume govt is neutral in it.
 
All I can do is go by his words. He is a combat vet, a very intelligent man, and a close friend. I trust him when he says it destroyed morale, and I can see why the DADT environment made it difficult to deal with.

As I understand it-at least 6 and up to 10 pregnancies is remarkable, on a carrier even, though Ive heard high numbers on smaller ships. This indicates a real problem-especially considering the enormous expenses to the taxpayer, and burden on the military that didn't exist before.

And the initial prego check at 2 weeks is because it establishes a baseline that the woman is not prego on departure. There are more sensitive and specific tests, but they are more expensive. Im not denying stuff happens, Im saying THIS STUFF happens.

We have 5000+ crewmembers on a carrier. Most departments can pull 5-6 section duty in liberty ports, some do.

And the other stuff happens too and is completely ignored to rant about women getting pregnant on ships. It is no more a problem than things men do on ships, including hazing each other or playing "quick draw", ending up with one of them shot. The military has had women in it for quite a while, much longer than either of us have been around.

As for your buddy, either he or you are misconstruing where the destruction of morale is actually coming from. Again, any person, of any sexuality, can sexually assault another person, including a man. Being gay does not make a person unable to control themselves or more likely to sexually assault those around them, in their units. IF that is what they believe then it is that wrong belief that needs to go away, because that is the main issue. A secondary issue would be ensuring that sexual assaults of any kind, no matter the sex or sexuality of the victim or perpetrator, is dealt with to the fullest extent of military law. Again, sexual assault is still a crime, and always has been in the military. Nothing about putting DADT in place, nor repealing it to allow gays to serve openly changed this.
 
Its odd that you know the episodes by heart, but then again my little sister and I would argue over who got to watch what, especially on Friday nights. I always wanted to watch macgyver, she'd fight me all she could-her heart out (and my little bro-the "swing voter", on occasion) to watch Full house.

Do you think that the incidence you cite has more to do with making a comment on SSM and "nontraditional" families, or the characters desire to not make the little girl feel out of place and loved? For the record, I like the show-still do.

Actually, it had to do with trying to fool the teacher who questioned why they were all there, each meeting her one at a time (I actually just watched the episode again, since posting the last post on this subject, figured it was as good a time as any to watch the series again).

The fact remains though that they were a "nontraditional family" and there were several "relatively tame" innuendos made in that series that are only caught onto as adults. Like Jesse trying to help Joey become more "badass" and telling Joey after they climbed off his bike that he needed to let go or he, Jesse, would have some explaining to do to his own parents.
 
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