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Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

I have read them and I do not agree that they are irrelevant. Neither is Barnette, or Wooley, or Pruneyard Shopping Center. The law review article I cited also mentions most or all of these. This comment by the Court in Dale goes right to the heart of the problem with overly broad state public accommodations laws:


State public accommodations laws were originally enacted to prevent discrimination in traditional places of public accommodation -- like inns and trains....In this case, the New Jersey Supreme Court went a step further and applied its public accommodations law to a private entity without even attempting to tie the term "place" to a physical location. As the definition of "public accommodation" has expanded from clearly commercial entities, such as restaurants, bars, and hotels, to membership organizations such as the Boy Scouts, the potential for conflict between state public accommodations laws and the First Amendment rights of organizations has increased.



In her concurring opinion in the Jaycees case, Justice O'Connor distinguished between commercial associations, which enjoy only minimal First Amendment protection, and expressive associations, which are much more strongly protected. But she did not provide any standard by which to determine which category a particular association falls into. That is the problem. When so many kinds of things are made public accommodations by state laws, there is no way to know if any particular one is mainly an expressive association, or a commercial one. That is what I was getting at in the hypotheticals about architects and photographers--some enterprises and organizations have some features of a commercial business, but also heavily involve the expression or celebration of ideas of some type.

More than one First Amendment freedom is implicated by these state public accommodations laws, and they overlap somewhat. There is this question of the freedom of association. There is also a question of the freedom of speech, which involves both expressive speech and the freedom from being compelled by law to express views you do not agree with. The smaller the group, club, "business," etc. that a state law defines as a public accommodation, and the more expressive and less commercial its activities, the more likely that law is to run afoul of the First Amendment.

Another constitutional right, the implied right to personal privacy, may also be implicated by these laws. The Court in the Jaycees case identified the fourteenth amendment's due process clause--where the Court in some cases (including Roe v. Wade) has seemed to locate this privacy right--as another source of associational freedom. This right was also mentioned briefly in the concurring opinion in Prune Yard Shopping Center as a possible basis for a shopkeeper to object to his property being used to promote messages he did not agree with.

It's not clear to me how a state RFRA (which involves still another First Amendment right, the right to free exercise of religion) would interact with public accommodations laws. The Court discussed its free exercise decisions involving shops--one a kosher butcher, as I recall--in the Hobby Lobby decision.

My post referred to the cases you mentioned and not to the article you posted nor to the entire history of PA laws. While it is true that the definition of PA's has expanded, and that new and poorly defined legal categories will lead to litigation, this law is not directed at expressive organizations which already are protected (to some unclear extent). The question of where we draw the line between expressive orgs and purely commercial ones is an interesting question (as your examples show) but it is an irrelevant question for this thread.
 
He can call himself a lavender elephant if he wishes, but it does not change my original notation of what policy positions he presently supports. Very little of what he currently supports is "conservative", the majority being liberal-libertarian. He wrote about and supported gay marriage LONG before it was fashionable, condemns Israel, criticizes Obama's failure to deal with torture, and strongly advocates Obamacare. Tell me how those are iconic "conservative" policy opinions?

Your opinion on the state Sullivan's politics is horribly dated. Read his Daily Dish, in the last seven to ten years he has moved on.

He believes in small govt, low taxes, etc and gay marriage is a conservative position as is criticism of Israel, and torture. It's just not the position of wingnuts.

And the Daily Dish is considered a conservative blog
 
Indiana's RFRA law is different and much broader then the Federal version or other states versions. Sections 7 and 9 especially. So when people, including Pence are pointing to the 1993 law, or other states RFRA they're being dishonest. The Indiana RFRA law is poorly written and vague. Other RFRA's have limitations, Indiana's does not.
 
Your point would be?

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If the business owners were Muslims the government would side in favor of them. I am all for one's right to refuse service to any persons of their choosing. FK the fed.
 
Funny use of an example. You know, if I was to sell my car the government would want to know about that. That's pretty interesting, isn't it? That example also fails to take into account that you can actually drive your car on private property without a license, just not public property.

You can do whatever you want on private property....but not when you open it up to the public. Sorry bub....but you don't get to write your own rules just because you buy a piece of property. It doesn't work that way.
 
It depends, an activist district court judge may strike it down, but in reLity it will probably be upheld, it's limited enough in scope that it in many ways mirrors existing federal laws.

This law only provides an option, not a mandate. The segregation laws on the south were mandatory, you had to segregate your business. This is not

There is zero chance that this stands up. Zilch.
 
Not in Indiana. Not anymore. Pence corrected that error

Not for long. The taxpayers of Indiana are going to spend millions to fight this law which will be struck without a doubt. Enjoy your bigotry while you can because it won't last.
 
Didn't read the whole thread, but I have a solution. Allow the law, but include a corollary that states that the business in question should publicly announce what group that are choosing to not serve... that way those who do not want to associate with them will know that this is a "safe zone" and members of that group will avoid that place of business altogether... and anyone else who has issue with the situation.
Hyperbole aside, word of mouth will produce that same result
 
There is zero chance that this stands up. Zilch.

Well then the federal law shouldn't either, I eagerly await your challenge to it.

Keep us updated.

I peg it 60-40 in favor of being upheld, Indiana is in the most consertative appeal court circuit in the country. And SCOTUS will not be reviewing this case. In fact 20 states have similar laws and I've not heard about those laws being challenged. The only people upset about this are the people who cruised around town looking for the one bakery out of ten with bible verses on the door to jack up. Unless you are a trouble maker you have literally no chance of this being a proble
 
There is zero chance that this stands up. Zilch.

Well then the federal law shouldn't either, I eagerly await your challenge to it.

Keep us updated.

I peg it 60-40 in favor of being upheld, Indiana is in the most consertative appeal court circuit in the country. And SCOTUS will not be reviewing this case. In fact 20 states have similar laws and I've not heard about those laws being challenged. The only people upset about this are the people who cruised around town looking for the one bakery out of ten with bible verses on the door to jack up. Unless you are a trouble maker you have literally no chance of this being a proble
 
Not for long. The taxpayers of Indiana are going to spend millions to fight this law which will be struck without a doubt. Enjoy your bigotry while you can because it won't last.
Since Indiana is one of several states that have this law and the law is just like the federal law, there isn't much chance it will be seriously challenged. Especially since it is fully supported by the First Amendment, the Law of the Land
 
Not for long. The taxpayers of Indiana are going to spend millions to fight this law which will be struck without a doubt. Enjoy your bigotry while you can because it won't last.

Wrong on Indiana and wrong on the law.
 
Since Indiana is one of several states that have this law and the law is just like the federal law, there isn't much chance it will be seriously challenged. Especially since it is fully supported by the First Amendment, the Law of the Land
It differs from the federal law and the RFRA laws passed in most states. Governor Mike Pence says the Indiana legislature will convene this week to "clarify" the law (bring it into compliance with federal law).
 
Pence is already backtracking. The backlash from businesses threatening to take their business elsewhere will probably have a bigger effect than the courts.

But if it does go to court it has a very good chance of being overturned. Because again Indiana's RFRA is much different and much broader than the RFRA laws in other states. From what I'm reading Indiana's RFRA is a mess.
 
To me the boy scouts of America are not a public accommodation and neither is the St. Patrick's Day Parade. We are talking about things that are somewhat essential and should be open to everybody like food stores, hotels, motels, gas stations, cinema's, etc.

Whether you think those things were public accommodations doesn't matter. What matters--and what mattered to the people who were forced to defend themselves at great expense--is that the state laws involved considered them that. The state law at issue in a third Supreme Court decision on this subject defined the Jaycees, an organization with several hundred thousand members, as a public accommodation.

You are talking about those essential places, but many state public accommodations laws are talking about much more. Almost any difficult question can be made to seem simple if you ignore enough of the troublesome details.
 
Pence is already backtracking. The backlash from businesses threatening to take their business elsewhere will probably have a bigger effect than the courts.

But if it does go to court it has a very good chance of being overturned. Because again Indiana's RFRA is much different and much broader than the RFRA laws in other states. From what I'm reading Indiana's RFRA is a mess.

I don't hear him backtracking on George SteXXXXXopolis, this morning.
 
Simpleχity;1064472605 said:
It differs from the federal law and the RFRA laws passed in most states. Governor Mike Pence says the Indiana legislature will convene this week to "clarify" the law (bring it into compliance with federal law).

Woo hoo, another baseless divination of a "truthie" by a member pro-gay rights crowd. By the way, did you actually read the law (that's actually a rhetorical question)? Do you have any reason to ASSUME, other than your baseless speculation, that Pence's desire for clarification means it is not in compliance with federal law? Nope.

FACT: As stated previously, the law is nearly identical to the federal law. There are no significant differences.

...Here's the text of the federal RFRA:

Government may burden a person's exercise of religion only if it demonstrates that application of the burden to the person --

(1) furthers a compelling governmental interest; and

(2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.

And here is the text of Indiana's RFRA:

A governmental entity may substantially burden a person's exercise of religion only if the governmental entity demonstrates that application of the burden to the person: (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.

Indiana's Religious Freedom Restoration Act, Explained | The Weekly Standard

Might it be that Pence is trying to sooth the hysterical pro-gay rights loons and their fellow-traveling nitwits (and spineless institutional groups?). Naaaawwww.
 
Pence is already backtracking. The backlash from businesses threatening to take their business elsewhere will probably have a bigger effect than the courts.

But if it does go to court it has a very good chance of being overturned. Because again Indiana's RFRA is much different and much broader than the RFRA laws in other states. From what I'm reading Indiana's RFRA is a mess.

You mean he is trying to sooth the ninnies who of the mob of ignorati who are soliciting fear and loathing, and dampen the terror of the cowed business community. Read the law bucko, no substantive difference.
 
It is NOT identical to the Fed law, or Illinois law. All Indiana had to do would be to copy's Illinois law, but they didn't. They wrote their own which is much broader and has much fewer protections in it. Indy's RFRA is much different. The Indiana GOP Legislators and Pence just got caught pandering to extremists in the GOP.
 
You mean he is trying to sooth the ninnies who of the mob of ignorati who are soliciting fear and loathing, and dampen the terror of the cowed business community. Read the law bucko, no substantive difference.

Bucko? LOL

Indeed, as Gov. Pence provided in his statement yesterday: “Fortunately, in the 1990s Congress passed, and President Clinton signed, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act—limiting government action that would infringe upon religion to only those that did not substantially burden free exercise of religion absent a compelling state interest and in the least restrictive means.” See Gov. Mike Pence signs ‘religious freedom’ bill in private.

The flaw in this implication is that it is misleading for several reasons. The federal act was deemed inapplicable to state actions. Consequently, several states have copied the federal act or have adopted similar legislation. A fair collection of all religious freedom statutes and court decisions can be found here. (Hats off to Liberty Counsel for making the effort to compile this list and publish it.) Upon my quick scan, Indiana’s version of the bill most resembles a similar law passed in Texas in 1999 but even that bill contains significant limitations that Indiana’s does not.

What is clear is that Indiana has not copied the federal legislation or those passed by other states, but has instead added more expansive language as seen below. The IRFRA adds several clauses which rightly give pause to the endless possibilities of using religion and religious freedom as a sword and a shield.

https://inadvancesheet.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/the-indiana-religious-freedom-restoration-act-an-analysis-of-its-controversy/
 
It's not imaginary at all. There have been cases of gays and their kids denied medical service even in non "RFRA" states, where no local ordinance forbids it. Now 12 indiana counties had forbid this abhorrent behavior, while this law attempts to undo 40+ years of progress by cities like indianapolis to put an end to such discrimination. That is the entire intent. Religious fanatics will do whatever they can get away with. These are the same tyrants who were behind the SSM ban and sodomy laws and police brutality and so on, down the years.

Even the freaking NFL is talking of relocating its combine. When your public policy is too regressive for the NFL, it's time to shelve the entire state government, clean slate

Rather than accept my lengthy and accurate comparisons of REAL discrimination to the delusional world created by gays and liberals, you resort to scraping the bottom of the complaint barrel. In a nation of at least 10,000,000 gays and lesbians, and millions of businesses, what are the odds that any of them (or their kids) will be denied medical treatment because of their sexual orientation - somewhere between 1 or 2 in 10,000,000 or zero in 10,000,000.

Please provide cases, especially in last 20 years, where this has occurred. I suppose if you keep telling yourself the same mantra, over and over, that discrimination by business is a pervasive problem and create a dream world where you are in a real battle ... well, then I suppose you don't want or need facts.

And, by the way, you do know who has ACTUALLY done the discrimination that does exist: government. The military and many police force cultures are far more discriminatory than a little baker or photographer plying their trade.

Sssshhh...
 
I don't think the bill mentions gay people at all. You are misinformed. The bill addresses religious freedom.

No, not misinformed. Sanctioned "religious" bigotry, nothing less. They have already lost some business, I hope they lose a lot more. I read in Texass a similar law supported a cop who wouldn't work a gay pride parade. Very nice, I'm sure God approves.
 
No, not misinformed. Sanctioned "religious" bigotry, nothing less. They have already lost some business, I hope they lose a lot more. I read in Texass a similar law supported a cop who wouldn't work a gay pride parade. Very nice, I'm sure God approves.
Most certainly
 
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