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Indiana's Pence to sign bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers

Henrin said:
If that happens I bet it's not that far in the future.
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if a persons understanding of rights is completely dependent on if you are an employee or employer, you should go sit on the sidelines and let the grown-ups talk.
 
Paschendale said:
I have no interest in listening to you whine about gun rights, but keep in mind that it is not illegal to shout at everyone in a business, either, and you would rightfully be thrown out if you were doing that. Just because something isn't against the law doesn't mean you should actually be doing it.
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Shouting is a disturbance to your business, a harm. Being gay is not a disturbance or harm to your business, nor is a legally armed citizen, or being married, or being black.

You never answered my question about the horse, which amendment was it? Never-mind, you know that was just a stupid thing to say, because bringing a horse into a business can damage your business, a harm.

Please continue offering examples that further prove my argument.
 
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ARealConservative said:
if a persons understand of rights is completely dependent on if you are an employee or empoyer, you should go sit on the sidelines and let the grown-ups talk.
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Who is doing that? No one.
 
matchlight said:
No, I don't think it's that easy. The fact a municipal ordinance or state law exists, by itself, does not make what it requires or prohibits lawful. Like every other law in the U.S., it has to comply with the Constitution. A local ordinance that prohibited everyone in that jurisdiction from possessing a firearm, for example, could not be enforced. And the same goes for state public accommodations laws. In the Dale case, the Supreme Court held a New Jersey law that prohibited a chapter of the Boy Scouts from revoking the membership of a homosexual scoutmaster, on the ground that the Boy Scouts were a public accommodation that was discriminating against the scoutmaster because of his sexual orientation, was invalid because it violated the freedom of expressive association guaranteed by the First Amendment.
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That's because the Boy Scouts are an expressive organization.

Most for profit businesses open to the public are not expressive orgs
 
ARealConservative said:
Agent J is doing that
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huh? doing what?
not failing for and destroying the opinions and falsehoods you push as facts but cant back up?
yes i am most certainly doing that, along with other posters her lol
Let us know when you can back up your claims, thanks
 
JANFU said:
True
For a country that values rights, why do we see this issue on a constant basis?
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Does this country actually value rights?

This thread indicates otherwise.

People seem to value power more than rights. This entire thread is about gaining power over a person, not about rights.

Should we have the power to dictate what a DR does? A baker?
 
Henrin said:
Even clubs are forced to accept in people they don't want to accept in. Look at all male golf clubs for an example of that.
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As I understand it, and assuming state laws don't prohibit it, private clubs including golf clubs can discriminate all they want, but in most cases in this era, they're just denied tax benefits when they do.
 
AGENT J said:
1.)its not under attack in any fashion at all, claims that those will never bee taken seriously by educated, honest and objective people
2.) 100% dishonesty, there was no force
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So assessing a business a bankrupting sized fine isn't force?

Christian bakers fined up to $150,000 for refusing to bake same-sex ‘wedding’ cake
Christian Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Wedding Found Guilty of Discrimination; Will Have to Pay Up to $150K
Christian bakers face government wrath for refusing to make cake for gay wedding | Fox News
Bakers Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for a Lesbian Couple Could Be Hit With a Massive Fine After Being Found Guilty of Discrimination | TheBlaze.com
Bakery risks large fine for anti-gay discrimination

I disagree. It's using the force associated with the barrel of the government gun stuck to the head of these christian bakers.

Frankly, it seems, somehow, that this is government overreach and forced social engineering, rather than letting the bigotry of the past just fade away on it's own, of it's own accord.
 
JasperL said:
As I understand it, and assuming state laws don't prohibit it, private clubs including golf clubs can discriminate all they want, but in most cases in this era, they're just denied tax benefits when they do.
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So the state still punishes them. That is all I needed to make my point. Thank you.
 
ARealConservative said:
Does this country actually value rights?

This thread indicates otherwise.

People seem to value power more than rights. This entire thread is about gaining power over a person, not about rights.

Should we have the power to dictate what a DR does? A baker?
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They have the right not to enter into a business.
They do not have the right to discriminate in business.
 
eohrnberger said:
So assessing a business a bankrupting sized fine isn't force?

Christian bakers fined up to $150,000 for refusing to bake same-sex ‘wedding’ cake
Christian Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Wedding Found Guilty of Discrimination; Will Have to Pay Up to $150K
Christian bakers face government wrath for refusing to make cake for gay wedding | Fox News
Bakers Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for a Lesbian Couple Could Be Hit With a Massive Fine After Being Found Guilty of Discrimination | TheBlaze.com
Bakery risks large fine for anti-gay discrimination

I disagree. It's using the force associated with the barrel of the government gun stuck to the head of these christian bakers.

Frankly, it seems, somehow, that this is government overreach and forced social engineering, rather than letting the bigotry of the past just fade away on it's own, of it's own accord.
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That bakery has not been assessed a fine. It went out of business because its' owners are stupid bigots.
 
eohrnberger said:
1.)So assessing a business a bankrupting sized fine isn't force?

Christian bakers fined up to $150,000 for refusing to bake same-sex ‘wedding’ cake
Christian Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Wedding Found Guilty of Discrimination; Will Have to Pay Up to $150K
Christian bakers face government wrath for refusing to make cake for gay wedding | Fox News
Bakers Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for a Lesbian Couple Could Be Hit With a Massive Fine After Being Found Guilty of Discrimination | TheBlaze.com
Bakery risks large fine for anti-gay discrimination
2.)I disagree. It's using the force associated with the barrel of the government gun stuck to the head of these christian bakers.
3.)Frankly, it seems, somehow, that this is government overreach and forced social engineering, rather than letting the bigotry of the past just fade away on it's own, of it's own accord.
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1.) no its not because those people CHOOSE to break the law and become criminals :shrug:
they forced themselves out of business

Im a christian and i would have to be a complete moron to choose to break the law and infringe on the rights of others and think i get special treatment

simple solution . . dont choose to break the law and become criminals

I mean hey if you want to use some subjective definition of force the same way rape laws are force then fine but there is no force to do business with gays and thank you for posting all those links proving that.

2.) disagree all you want, they forced themselves out, thier choice to be criminals

3.) you can feel that way but its simply a protection of equal rights and its spreading
 
CanadaJohn said:
Why should your business benefit from the roads, sewer system, electricity grid, garbage pickup, etc. that a gay citizen paid taxes to provide his/her community if you're going to use that infrastructure to deny him/her access to your business? Should a gay citizen be able to decide, using your logic, that no religious bigots get to use the municipalities infrastructure to operate a business?
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Why should I be required to pay for the public school system when I don't use it? We are all part of a single country and we all live with the mores of society and the laws. I hate the concept of government telling private businesses that they cannot refuse to deal with customers with which they do not wish to do business. It is no different than telling consumers they must patronize a particular business.

As an example, I don't buy Levi Jeans because I don't like the company's politics. That is my preference. Since there are other sources for jeans I'm fine. I can exercise my freedom of choice. If a photographer doesn't want to photograph gay people or any other people, he should have the same freedom of choice. The gay people can give their business to a more sensible photographer. They have the same freedom of choice. I can buy jeans from whom I want and lose nothing in the process. The gay people can find another photographer and probably end up with better photographs made by someone who values their business.

I'll give you another example. I was fired as a customer and banned by Paypal because they didn't like some of the products I sell on my web sites. I wasn't willing to drop the products but I did drop Paypal as a payment method at their insistence. That wasn't good enough for them. Apparently they wanted to punish me for refusing to bend to their will. I think it was stupid business to close my account because they couldn't regulate what I sell but I viewed it as their right. I don't have a right to use their service and they have no requirement to do business with me. I didn't complain or sue anybody, I just moved on with my life. The gay people should have moved on and found another photographer.

To me it is beyond the role of government to dictate who businesses or customers people must choose to patronize or accept as a customer. Bringing up nonsense about roads and government services is a pretty empty argument in my view. The photographer pays for these things with taxes just like the gay people.
 
sangha said:
That's because the Boy Scouts are an expressive organization.

Most for profit businesses open to the public are not expressive orgs
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That is true. But nothing requires a state public accommodations law to prohibit private businesses from declining to enter into contracts with people because of their sexual orientation. That is up to the state, and I don't know what there is about Indiana's public accommodations law that makes this law--apparently an RFRA--necessary. It's not clear why Indiana could not have accomplished the same thing just by omitting sexual orientation as a prohibited basis for discrimination in public accommodations.
 
eohrnberger said:
So assessing a business a bankrupting sized fine isn't force?

Christian bakers fined up to $150,000 for refusing to bake same-sex ‘wedding’ cake
Christian Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Wedding Found Guilty of Discrimination; Will Have to Pay Up to $150K
Christian bakers face government wrath for refusing to make cake for gay wedding | Fox News
Bakers Who Refused to Make Wedding Cake for a Lesbian Couple Could Be Hit With a Massive Fine After Being Found Guilty of Discrimination | TheBlaze.com
Bakery risks large fine for anti-gay discrimination

I disagree. It's using the force associated with the barrel of the government gun stuck to the head of these christian bakers.

Frankly, it seems, somehow, that this is government overreach and forced social engineering, rather than letting the bigotry of the past just fade away on it's own, of it's own accord.
Click to expand...

The business owners established their bakery in a state with laws that prohibit discrimination against LGBT. Why should they expect to break the laws of their state without suffering a penalty? They should know the rules of operating a business, and if they don't want to comply, they need to find another way to make money, same as any other business in Oregon.

And as we saw with racism, letting "bigotry just fade away" can take centuries, and a civil war.
 
JANFU said:
They have the right not to enter into a business.
They do not have the right to discriminate in business.
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Your Orwellian doublespeak just strengthens my point

“They have the right to do what you tell them to do.”

"no shirt, no shoes, no service"

that is a form of discrimination. they clearly have the right to discriminate.
 
ARealConservative said:
Your Orwellian doublespeak just strengthens my point

“They have the right to do what you tell them to do.”

"no shirt, no shoes, no service"

that is a form of discrimination. they clearly have the right to discriminate.
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correct people can discriminate in general thats exactly why there is no force and i dont have a right to your service. thank you for proving your own posts wrong again.
 
AGENT J said:
correct people can discriminate in general thats exactly why there is no force and i dont have a right to your service. thank you for proving your own posts wrong again.
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shhh. the grown-ups are talking
 
ARealConservative said:
shhh. the grown-ups are talking
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LOL thats what i thought!
you cant defend your failed and destroyed claims so now you resort to deflections and failed insults. Typical move when one has no honest, logical, or intelligent path to take.
Let us know when you can back ui your failed claims, thanks
facts win again
 
AGENT J said:
LOL thats what i thought!
you cant defend your failed and destroyed claims so now you resort to deflections and failed insults. Typical move when one has no honest, logical, or intelligent path to take.
Let us know when you can back ui your failed claims, thanks
facts win again
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you have said nothing new since my post 219 in this thread.

~flushed
 
Thorgasm said:
I am not Kramer.

I read the article.
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Then you must be ignoring the facts contained within. No need to say more, as I won't waste my time.
 
AGENT J said:
1.) no its not because those people CHOOSE to break the law and become criminals :shrug:
they forced themselves out of business

Im a christian and i would have to be a complete moron to choose to break the law and infringe on the rights of others and think i get special treatment

simple solution . . dont choose to break the law and become criminals

1.1). I mean hey if you want to use some subjective definition of force the same way rape laws are force then fine but there is no force to do business with gays and thank you for posting all those links proving that.

2.) disagree all you want, they forced themselves out, thier choice to be criminals

3.) you can feel that way but its simply a protection of equal rights and its spreading
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1) Religious values = criminals. Hmm.
I guess all religious fundamentalists need to move out of that state then.

1.1). I think what you want to say is that when you open a business you are forced to do business with gays as well as other protected classes.

2) See #1.

3) You may see it as a just equal right measure, there is the taint of forced social engineering and domination of value system other than that you that you support. Some freedom that.

I can just see gangs of LGBT folks hunting down any business where they feel slighted only to bring similar results.
Stamp out those thoughts and values we disagree with.

Harrumph.

If diversity is such an important thing, why is it that diversity of religious beliefs and other value systems isn't? Just because?

Frankly, it still make more sense to me the policy business policy 'we reserve the right not to server someone'.

What's next of the legislative agenda? Forcing someone to frequent LGBT establishments? Forcing the electorate to buy something they don't want? (Oh wait, that's been done already).
 
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ARealConservative said:
1.)you have said nothing new since my post 219 in this thread.
2.)~flushed
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1.)correct lol
why would i need something new when it will be the same results, your post failing and losing to facts.
see when people are honest, objective and talk facts and reality, new things arent needed because thats the end. new angles are needed by those trying to invent the truth or sell thier opinions and falsehoods as facts. Hence, your posts. Keep up the good fight though, the rest of us will be here living in reality. Good luck!
2.) perfect place for the crap you posted that was destroyed by muiltiple posters.
let us know when you have your next NEW thing so that can fail too.
 
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