• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Ted Cruz going on Obamacare

Henrin said:
It’s one thing to give your own money to help the poor; it’s quite another to give money to the poor that you’ve coercively seized from someone else.
Click to expand...

Ok, we live in a country where something called TAXES are collected by the government, and then used to provide services/fund programs that, for the most part, help people. If the government using a part of your taxes paid is seizing money and giving it to others in need, then we have a obvious divide of principle.
 
Dovkan said:
That's businesses deciding to do that, everything will have negative effects, the question is, do the positive effects far outweigh the negatives? In the case of obamacare, they do.
Click to expand...

Indeed, they do by a long shot.
 
Dovkan said:
Ok, we live in a country where something called TAXES are collected by the government, and then used to provide services/fund programs that, for the most part, help people. If the government using a part of your taxes paid is seizing money and giving it to others in need, then we have a obvious divide of principle.
Click to expand...

While all compulsory taxation is morally wrong there is a difference between being compelled to pay for services that directly benefit me and being compelled to pay for services that do not directly benefit me.
 
sangha said:
Why yes, getting subsidied insurance through an exchange *is* the smart thing to do. Thing is, Cruz has been running his mouth off for some time about how awful it is that so many people have to buy through the exchange and get a subsidy.
Click to expand...
he's been whining about employer subsidized healthcare?... you'll have to show me where that has happened.

How is it so awful for others to buy through the exchange but smart when he does it? How does that work?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure i've ever heard him say its awful for people to purchase from the exchanges.... his opposition doesn't seem to come from that side of the issue, he seem to me like he opposes the mandate.. whach, as we all know, is the backbone of the obamacare.
that said, all i've heard is rhetoric about his opposition. i've never heard much in the way of specifics... there might even be parts of hte law he supports, but if he opposes the individual mandate, he really has no option other than calling for it's total repeal.



Why yes, it *is* the most economically responsible option available to him. *That's* the point - for all his whining about how bad it is that millions are being "forced" to buy on the exchange and get a subsidy, his own actions show that this "awful choice" is the most economically responsible choice available for millions of americans.
Click to expand...
well, I agree with him that it's awful that we are mandated by federal law to purchase a commercial product.... but again, i don't think he's come down on anyone for actually buying insurance through the exchanges.
the only people who are whining about people buying through the exchanges are you guys.. the Obamacare supporters ( which is ironic)





Yes, the exchanges *are* "the best option available"
Click to expand...
so why are you whining about him taking advantage of the best option available to him?

So why does he whine about how millions are being "forced" to buy there? How is it that when they choose "the best option available" it's a forced decision, but when he makes a similar choice its "the best option available"?
Click to expand...
umm.. maybe it's the fact they are forced to buy from there.. best option or not?
you might be unaware of this, but lots of people are pissed off about the individual mandate.. lots of people oppose obamacare on that very basis.

like i've repeatedly said, there is no inconsistency is following a law you oppose... it happens all day long, every day.... Cruz is just being attacked over this because of politics, nothing more, nothing less.
don't get me wrong, i'm entertained by the attacks... but let's not pretend there's substance here.
 
Henrin said:
While all compulsory taxation is morally wrong there is a difference between being compelled to pay for services that benefit me and being compelled to pay for services that do not directly benefit me.
Click to expand...

Every single person has different views on what there taxes should go to, that's why taxes are split between many different things, wait, compulsory taxation is morally wrong? What grounds do you base this off of, how will the government provide services without taxes? People will always feel they are not compelled, we're all free to have opinions.
 
Montecresto said:
Indeed, they do by a long shot.
Click to expand...

I think it's hard to get past the fact that people are compelled into commerce. I think it is even harder to get past it when you realize that the entire bill lives because of servitude.
 
Thrilla said:
he's been whining about employer subsidized healthcare?... you'll have to show me where that has happened.

I'm not sure i've ever heard him say its awful for people to purchase from the exchanges.... his opposition doesn't seem to come from that side of the issue, he seem to me like he opposes the mandate.. whach, as we all know, is the backbone of the obamacare.
that said, all i've heard is rhetoric about his opposition. i've never heard much in the way of specifics... there might even be parts of hte law he supports, but if he opposes the individual mandate, he really has no option other than calling for it's total repeal.



well, I agree with him that it's awful that we are mandated by federal law to purchase a commercial product.... but again, i don't think he's come down on anyone for actually buying insurance through the exchanges.
the only people who are whining about people buying through the exchanges are you guys.. the Obamacare supporters ( which is ironic)





so why are you whining about him taking advantage of the best option available to him?

umm.. maybe it's the fact they are forced to buy from there.. best option or not?
you might be unaware of this, but lots of people are pissed off about the individual mandate.. lots of people oppose obamacare on that very basis.

like i've repeatedly said, there is no inconsistency is following a law you oppose... it happens all day long, every day.... Cruz is just being attacked over this because of politics, nothing more, nothing less.
don't get me wrong, i'm entertained by the attacks... but let's not pretend there's substance here.
Click to expand...

How are they forced? Give me some data on this, something.
 
Henrin said:
I think it's hard to get past the fact that people are compelled into commerce. I think it is even harder to get past it when you realize that the entire bill lives because of servitude.
Click to expand...

Servitude: the state of being a slave or completely subject to someone more powerful.
Oh yes, the ACA totally fits that description.
 
Dovkan said:
Every single person has different views on what there taxes should go to, that's why taxes are split between many different things, wait, compulsory taxation is morally wrong? What grounds do you base this off of, how will the government provide services without taxes? People will always feel they are not compelled, we're all free to have opinions.
Click to expand...

Do you understand the difference between a service like police that serves all and exists for all and something like food stamps that exists for the poor?
 
Dovkan said:
Servitude: the state of being a slave or completely subject to someone more powerful.
Oh yes, the ACA totally fits that description.
Click to expand...

What would happen to your pre-existing dream if people were not compelled to buy healthcare insurance? Do you know how insurance works? Do you want me to explain how forcing people to pay into a pot that you can take from is servitude?
 
Dovkan said:
A rare voice of reason appears, I must catch it with my ultra ball! :peace
Click to expand...

I'm actually personally benefiting from PPACA, I suspect Cruz will be as well. He'll have no pre-existing worries, his premium will go down, his deductible will go down, coverage and accessibilities will go up. There are problems with the program, to be sure. Owning a medical billing company, I'm intimate with many of them, some will be ironed out, some may just be the price to pay.
 
Henrin said:
Do you understand the difference between a service like police that serves all and exists for all and something like food stamps that exists for the poor?
Click to expand...

Food stamps do exist to help all on some degree, if you collapse into poverty and need help, you will be able to access food stamps. That's like saying "Government supported stem cell research doesn't help me directly, pfft, screw that." We obviously have very different views and opinions, I love healthy discourse.
 
Dovkan said:
That's businesses deciding to do that, everything will have negative effects, the question is, do the positive effects far outweigh the negatives? In the case of obamacare, they do.
Click to expand...

Huh ?

Its called unintended consequences and its a typical reaction to nonsensical left wing policies pushed down people's throats under the pretense of ' fairness " and " equity ".

When will you people ever learn ? Oh, thats right, your'e loyal to a twisted and failed ideology, not to the truth.

The fallacy and FOOLISHNESS of allowing a Government to become the ultimate arbiter of whats " fair " and whats not always has destructive consequences.

The difference between you and I is I know that those consequences are inevitable.People that share you ideology dont care about consequences.

You care about intent and empty plattitudes and are naive enough to believe that any Government could and would perform services more effficiently and effectively than the private sector.

Government has done enough damage. They were the driving force behind the 2008 Financial Crises and what did so many ignorant Americans do ?

They elected some idiot that signed a law that guaranteed higher cost on consumers and businesses YEARS before it was to be implemented.

ObamaCare doesn't effect the Rich or poor. The rich can afford the cost increases and the poor quality for Medicaid.

ObamaCare targets the discretionary income of the Middle class and thats idiotic. It takes more of it away under the pretense of " affordability " and " fairness. "

How good is a law that was passed on the back of a long list of lies ? Not good at all.
 
Fenton said:
Huh ?

Its called unintended consequences and its a typical reaction to nonsensical left wing policies pushed down people's throats under the pretense of ' fairness " and " equity ".

When will you people ever learn ? Oh, thats right, your'e loyal to a twisted and failed ideology, not to the truth.

The fallacy and FOOLISHNESS of allowing a Government to become the ultimate arbiter of whats " fair " and whats not always has destructive consequences.

The difference between you and I is I know that those consequences are inevitable.People that share you ideology dont care about consequences.

You care about intent and empty plattitudes and are naive enough to believe that any Government could and would perform services more effficiently and effectively than the private sector.

Government has done enough damage. They were the driving force behind the 2008 Financial Crises and what did so many ignorant Americans do ?

They elected some idiot that signed a law that guaranteed higher cost on consumers and businesses YEARS before it was to be implemented.

ObamaCare doesn't effect the Rich or poor. The rich can afford the cost increases and the poor quality for Medicaid.

ObamaCare targets the discretionary income of the Middle class and thats idiotic. It takes more of it away under the pretense of " affordability " and " fairness. "

How good is a law that was passed on the back of a long list of lies ? Not good at all.
Click to expand...
Sounds like fear mongering to me, but I'd like to address one point. LOOK AT EUROPE. :)
 
Dovkan said:
Food stamps do exist to help all on some degree, if you collapse into poverty and need help, you will be able to access food stamps. That's like saying "Government supported stem cell research doesn't help me directly, pfft, screw that." We obviously have very different views and opinions, I love healthy discourse.
Click to expand...

Yes, people say the same for all welfare programs.
 
Henrin said:
Yes, people say the same for all welfare programs.
Click to expand...

You do agree on my point about stem cell research though, right? It's ridiculous the analogies people use these days.. Welfare programs work and are effective, sorry.
 
Dovkan said:
You do agree on my point about stem cell research though, right? It's ridiculous the analogies people use these days.. Welfare programs work and are effective, sorry.
Click to expand...

Welfare programs do very little to solve anything, sorry. And no, I don't agree with you on stem cell research.
 
Henrin said:
Welfare programs do very little to solve anything, sorry. And no, I don't agree with you on stem cell research.
Click to expand...

It's essentially what's implied with your statements. "I'll never be poor and need help from welfare programs.. they're useless!" and then.. "PFFT, I'LL NEVER HAVE A MEDICAL CONDITION THAT COULD BE HELPED WITH STEM CELL RESEARCH, IT'S WASTING MAH MONEEEHHH" They do very little to solve anything? That point is wrong. Welfare's effect on poverty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Thrilla said:
are you not familiar with the individual mandate?
Click to expand...

It doesn't force anyone, it is a tax penalty. "Depending on your coverage, income, and family size, you will either pay a flat dollar amount or a percentage of income above the tax return filing threshold for your filing status. The fee is capped at the national average for a Bronze health plan available in the marketplace, and it’s only paid for full months you or a family member went without coverage."
 
Dovkan said:
It doesn't force anyone, it is a tax penalty. "Depending on your coverage, income, and family size, you will either pay a flat dollar amount or a percentage of income above the tax return filing threshold for your filing status. The fee is capped at the national average for a Bronze health plan available in the marketplace, and it’s only paid for full months you or a family member went without coverage."
Click to expand...

whew. that's great news... for a minute, I was pretty sure the federal government was ordering citizens to purchase healthcare insurance and punishing us if we didn't.

oh wait, that's exactly what they are doing...imagine that ;)
 
Dovkan said:
It's essentially what's implied with your statements. "I'll never be poor and need help from welfare programs.. they're useless!" and then.. "PFFT, I'LL NEVER HAVE A MEDICAL CONDITION THAT COULD BE HELPED WITH STEM CELL RESEARCH, IT'S WASTING MAH MONEEEHHH" They do very little to solve anything? That point is wrong. Welfare's effect on poverty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

That is called a correlation. All you have to do now is prove the causation. Good luck with that.
 
Thrilla said:
whew. that's great news... for a minute, I was pretty sure the federal government was ordering citizens to purchase healthcare insurance and punishing us if we didn't.

oh wait, that's exactly what they are doing...imagine that ;)
Click to expand...

The 'punishment' is minimal and has exemptions.
Quick List of Common ObamaCare Exemptions
Here are common ObamaCare exemptions from the fee claimed on the 8965 exemptions form:

You got covered during open enrollment either inside or outside the Marketplace
You went less than three months without coverage
You don’t have to file taxes because your income is below the tax filing threshold
Coverage would cost more than 8% of household income per person
You got denied Medicaid or CHIP
Click to expand...
 
Henrin said:
That is called a correlation. All you have to do now is prove the causation. Good luck with that.
Click to expand...

It looks at many countries, I suppose welfare isn't the "causation" for any of them. Absurdity.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom