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Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

clownboy said:
What's embarrassing is that a mouthy kid trying to get access to alcohol bumps his head (head wounds bleed profusely) and it's a national story. Really should have only made it as far as the local Pennysaver.
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Don't complain about "stalking" when you're clearly answering my posts without quoting them; don't do so when you don't like the response. This didn't become a national story because a kid "bumped his head" anymore than it Eric Garner became a story because of his asthma. To claim so is absurdly dishonest. It became a story because there are far too many people in this country with the belief that the only way to deal with the population is violence. If someone doesn't comply with every order, then he must be wrestled to the ground. That says more about the adults than it does about the kids. :shrug:
 
Hatuey said:
Don't complain about "stalking" when you're clearly answering my posts without quoting them; don't do so when you don't like the response. This didn't become a national story because a kid "bumped his head" anymore than it Eric Garner became a story because of his asthma. To claim so is absurdly dishonest. It became a story because there are far too many people in this country with the belief that the only way to deal with the population is violence. If someone doesn't comply with every order, then he must be wrestled to the ground. That says more about the adults than it does about the kids. :shrug:
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It's clear the ABC is overfunded of they're conducting ID checks at bars and looking for teens buying beer at a grocery store.

I have never heard of a state out west with an agency that's job it is to heck up on that, must be an east coast thing because here if you try to get in with a fake ID you'll just be turned away, and if you get mouthy with the bartender they call the Sheriffs office. Never heard of liquor control doing these things....
 
Hatuey said:
Don't complain about "stalking" when you're clearly answering my posts without quoting them; don't do so when you don't like the response. This didn't become a national story because a kid "bumped his head" anymore than it Eric Garner became a story because of his asthma. To claim so is absurdly dishonest. It became a story because there are far too many people in this country with the belief that the only way to deal with the population is violence. If someone doesn't comply with every order, then he must be wrestled to the ground. That says more about the adults than it does about the kids. :shrug:
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Give it a rest. I've been participating in this thread all along and I didn't quote your post because I wanted to address the ONE small point alone. As to why it became national news, it was the bloody photo that made it so. The other thousand or so young folks turned away from bars or arrested for trying to get alcohol that night did not receive the same press. Only the mouthy kid who had to be wrestled to the ground got the full-on anti-police cheerleader endorsement. Again, THAT is the true embarrassment here.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
It's clear the ABC is overfunded of they're conducting ID checks at bars and looking for teens buying beer at a grocery store.

I have never heard of a state out west with an agency that's job it is to heck up on that, must be an east coast thing because here if you try to get in with a fake ID you'll just be turned away, and if you get mouthy with the bartender they call the Sheriffs office. Never heard of liquor control doing these things....
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The East Coast is pretty crazy when it comes to alcohol. However, it depends on the state. Vermont is pretty laid back when it comes to kids drinking. Cops will usually just ignore it as long as there is no trouble. I remember drinking beer back in Cali out in the open and cops just telling us to take it inside. We did, they left. If we were caught outside drinking again, it would result in a fine or our parents being spoken to by the police. That was enough to set most people straight until they could legally drink again. However, this situation escalated to a degree where it certainly didn't need to go. Who is at fault? As stated earlier, I simply don't know. There is too much missing from the video to tell. My instincts as an adult tell me that there is no way that other adults couldn't have spoken to this young man in a manner that he understood that what they were doing was in his best interest.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
It's clear the ABC is overfunded of they're conducting ID checks at bars and looking for teens buying beer at a grocery store.

I have never heard of a state out west with an agency that's job it is to heck up on that, must be an east coast thing because here if you try to get in with a fake ID you'll just be turned away, and if you get mouthy with the bartender they call the Sheriffs office. Never heard of liquor control doing these things....
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Well ABC does do a lot of undercover operations here. They just have the sheriffs do the arrest portion.
 
clownboy said:
Give it a rest. I've been participating in this thread all along and I didn't quote your post because I wanted to address the ONE small point alone.
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We know, we know, then when your posts are addressed you complain about "stalking". :lol:

As to why it became national news, it was the bloody photo that made it so. The other thousand or so young folks turned away from bars or arrested for trying to get alcohol that night did not receive the same press. Only the mouthy kid who had to be wrestled to the ground got the full-on anti-police cheerleader endorsement. Again, THAT is the true embarrassment here.
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Utter nonsense. He isn't the first person in the US to be shown on TV being wrestle to the ground by law enforcement. He isn't even the first bloody person to be in the news because of an altercation with the police. So the belief that it was his bloody head that did all of this ignores the fact that anyway you look at this, it would have made the news because of the way events proceeded. It made the news because there is a growing understanding that police are too violent with the average civilian. :shrug:
 
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clownboy said:
Well ABC does do a lot of undercover operations here. They just have the sheriffs do the arrest portion.
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You ever seen the movie super troopers?

I think these ABC agents must be like Farva, so deparate to prove to everyone else they're real cops and not just paper pushers.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
You ever seen the movie super troopers?

I think these ABC agents must be like Farva, so deparate to prove to everyone else they're real cops and not just paper pushers.
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A kid drinking on the day that most of America gets drunk and pretends we care about multiculturalism? Serious violation of zee law. What I think really puts it all into perspective is that the kid wasn't even charged with underaged drinking.
 
JasperL said:
It's funny - the owner is the person who carded Johnson and interacted with him. That should carry some weight. And his statement is perfectly consistent with all the other witnesses we've heard from, who all indicated there was no problem at the pub, and no problem as he left the pub. What do you need?

This owner has to deal with ABC agents nearly daily. What does it help him to undermine the agents if Johnson was drunk, acting like a thug, disorderly? He's causing problems he doesn't need by lying. So the simple assumption is he's recounting what he saw, accurately. Makes no sense for him to do anything else.
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The owner who only checks zip codes rather than actual ages or faces on the ID? He doesn't need to be drunk to be violating underage drinking laws. And bar/pub owners don't like ABC agents since they would almost certainly inhibit some of their business, especially in a college town.
 
roguenuke said:
The owner who only checks zip codes rather than actual ages or faces on the ID? He doesn't need to be drunk to be violating underage drinking laws. And bar/pub owners don't like ABC agents since they would almost certainly inhibit some of their business, especially in a college town.
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Seems like you're looking really hard for excuses to blame the kid.

If the bar owner suspects a fake ID, he's an idiot if he cares what age that ID states. What's the point of checking the age of a suspected fake ID?

And you're right, he doesn't have to be drunk to violate underage drinking laws. But I assume you've been to college or have been out in a college town on a party night. Half the people walking the streets is publicly intoxicated, and/or guilty of underage drinking. Why target a guy who's been polite, courteous as he's turned away from a bar?

Finally, right, pub owners don't like ABC agents. So the strategy is to make them look bad by FALSELY claiming the kid they took down and bloodied was an angel at his place? Seems like a good way to get them citing you for every violation possible.
 
JasperL said:
Seems like you're looking really hard for excuses to blame the kid.

If the bar owner suspects a fake ID, he's an idiot if he cares what age that ID states. What's the point of checking the age of a suspected fake ID?

And you're right, he doesn't have to be drunk to violate underage drinking laws. But I assume you've been to college or have been out in a college town on a party night. Half the people walking the streets is publicly intoxicated, and/or guilty of underage drinking. Why target a guy who's been polite, courteous as he's turned away from a bar?

Finally, right, pub owners don't like ABC agents. So the strategy is to make them look bad by FALSELY claiming the kid they took down and bloodied was an angel at his place? Seems like a good way to get them citing you for every violation possible.
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He's an idiot for not looking at the actual person and their age on the ID first. Then doing his check if there is an issue. The ID wasn't fake, according to the story, so then what made him think the ID was fake? If you are getting a fake ID, you are likely going to memorize the info on there. That is the stupidest way to find an underage person trying to enter a bar/pub. It's an excuse.
 
roguenuke said:
Which still doesn't mean he shouldn't get stopped if he was breaking the law. Most of these such cases involve something more than "he was just breaking this trivial offense". It almost always involves the person refusing to cooperate with the police when they are gathering information about the offense, then resisting arrest somehow, generally after a more than reasonable amount of time has passed. In this case, we don't really know a lot about what happened in between the kid leaving the pub and the video started. Hell, we don't really even know what happened at the club entrance. We only have the owner's statement, not much else.
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This should not be a crime. It should not be a police matter. That is the point. Unless the kid becomes violent with the bar staff, which may or may not have happened here, there is no reason for the police to deal with what is essentially a kindergarten issue.
The extent of police involvement should be insuring that bars do not knowingly serve underage people - assuming that's a criminal and not an administrative violation in that location.
 
Gaius46 said:
This should not be a crime. It should not be a police matter. That is the point. Unless the kid becomes violent with the bar staff, which may or may not have happened here, there is no reason for the police to deal with what is essentially a kindergarten issue.
The extent of police involvement should be insuring that bars do not knowingly serve underage people - assuming that's a criminal and not an administrative violation in that location.
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So youre saying having a fake ID shouldn't be a crime? That doesn't make any sense. That is almost certainly one of the crimes he was suspected of. And whether we agree or not that underage drinking should be a crime, it currently is. That means that if they did find evidence of him drinking, they had every right to address it, giving him a citation or actually arresting him. And we have no real idea what his attitude towards the officers was. So far, we have a very one sided version from him and his friends.
 
roguenuke said:
So youre saying having a fake ID shouldn't be a crime? That doesn't make any sense. That is almost certainly one of the crimes he was suspected of. And whether we agree or not that underage drinking should be a crime, it currently is. That means that if they did find evidence of him drinking, they had every right to address it, giving him a citation or actually arresting him. And we have no real idea what his attitude towards the officers was. So far, we have a very one sided version from him and his friends.
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When I was growing every kid had a fake ID, most pathetically bad, and tried to get into bars. It was - and still is it seems - normal behavior for young people. I agree both are crimes but criminalizing normal, largely harmless, kid behavior is stupid. It's also a symptom of the larger problem of criminalizing lots of harmless or trivially bad behavior in this society.
 
clownboy said:
What's embarrassing is that a mouthy kid trying to get access to alcohol bumps his head (head wounds bleed profusely) and it's a national story. Really should have only made it as far as the local Pennysaver.
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Wow.... unapologetic never the cops fault....


Kid was an honor student, had a CORDIAL conversation with the bouncer at the bar...broke NO laws, yet we are supposed to believe he suddenly became "mouthy" enough to deserve to be assaulted by police?


wow. Your America is not my America.
 
Gaius46 said:
This should not be a crime. It should not be a police matter. That is the point. Unless the kid becomes violent with the bar staff, which may or may not have happened here, there is no reason for the police to deal with what is essentially a kindergarten issue.
The extent of police involvement should be insuring that bars do not knowingly serve underage people - assuming that's a criminal and not an administrative violation in that location.
Click to expand...

Having a fake ID is a crime in Virginia:

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-346

Snipped below:

§ 46.2-346. Unlawful acts enumerated.

A. No person shall:

1. Display, cause or permit to be displayed, or have in his possession any driver's license which he knows to be fictitious or to have been cancelled, revoked, suspended, or altered, or photographed for the purpose of evading the intent of this chapter;

2. Lend to, or knowingly permit the use of by one not entitled thereto, any driver's license issued to the person so lending or permitting the use thereof;

3. Display or represent as his own any driver's license not issued to him;

4. Reproduce by photograph or otherwise, any driver's license, temporary driver's permit, learner's permit, or special identification card issued by the Department with the intent to commit an illegal act;


Underage drinking is a crime in Virginia:

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-266.1

§ 18.2-266.1. Persons under age 21 driving after illegally consuming alcohol; penalty.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of 21 to operate any motor vehicle after illegally consuming alcohol. Any such person with a blood alcohol concentration of 0.02 percent or more by weight by volume or 0.02 grams or more per 210 liters of breath but less than 0.08 by weight by volume or less than 0.08 grams per 210 liters of breath as indicated by a chemical test administered as provided in this article shall be in violation of this section.

B. A violation of this section is a Class 1 misdemeanor. Punishment shall include (i) forfeiture of such person's license to operate a motor vehicle for a period of one year from the date of conviction and (ii) a mandatory minimum fine of $500 or performance of a mandatory minimum of 50 hours of community service. This suspension period shall be in addition to the suspension period provided under § 46.2-391.2. The penalties and license forfeiture provisions set forth in §§ 16.1-278.9, 18.2-270 and 18.2-271 shall not apply to a violation of this section. Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall be eligible to attend an Alcohol Safety Action Program under the provisions of § 18.2-271.1 and may, in the discretion of the court, be issued a restricted license during the term of license suspension.

C. Notwithstanding §§ 16.1-278.8 and 16.1-278.9, upon adjudicating a juvenile delinquent based upon a violation of this section, the juvenile and domestic relations district court shall order disposition as provided in subsection B.


Suspicion of the violation of either of those laws most certainly is a police matter.
 
Gaius46 said:
When I was growing every kid had a fake ID, most pathetically bad, and tried to get into bars. It was - and still is it seems - normal behavior for young people. I agree both are crimes but criminalizing normal, largely harmless, kid behavior is stupid. It's also a symptom of the larger problem of criminalizing lots of harmless or trivially bad behavior in this society.
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Having a fake ID is not "harmless". Now I personally feel the drinking age should be 18, however it currently is 21, so therefore should be enforced, particularly on public streets and in public establishments.

It is wrong to ignore the "trivial" laws in favor of only going after the larger ones. That doesn't work. You have to enforce the smaller laws at a reasonable level.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Wow.... unapologetic never the cops fault....


Kid was an honor student, had a CORDIAL conversation with the bouncer at the bar...broke NO laws, yet we are supposed to believe he suddenly became "mouthy" enough to deserve to be assaulted by police?


wow. Your America is not my America.
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We have no idea how he acted to the cops, and due to the poor policy of the owner of the pub in how he checks IDs, suspicion, even if the ID wasn't fake, caused the encounter. We don't actually know the kid wasn't drinking, which is illegal, only that his buddies and others claim he wasn't "intoxicated".
 
roguenuke said:
We have no idea how he acted to the cops, and due to the poor policy of the owner of the pub in how he checks IDs, suspicion, even if the ID wasn't fake, caused the encounter. We don't actually know the kid wasn't drinking, which is illegal, only that his buddies and others claim he wasn't "intoxicated".
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Exactly, rogue. The bottom line is, we have no idea, and we don't know anything, really. And his discussion with the bar bouncer and his status as an honor student have exactly zero to do with this.
 
tres borrachos said:
Having a fake ID is a crime in Virginia:

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-346

Snipped below:

§ 46.2-346. Unlawful acts enumerated.

A. No person shall:

1. Display, cause or permit to be displayed, or have in his possession any driver's license which he knows to be fictitious or to have been cancelled, revoked, suspended, or altered, or photographed for the purpose of evading the intent of this chapter;

2. Lend to, or knowingly permit the use of by one not entitled thereto, any driver's license issued to the person so lending or permitting the use thereof;

3. Display or represent as his own any driver's license not issued to him;

4. Reproduce by photograph or otherwise, any driver's license, temporary driver's permit, learner's permit, or special identification card issued by the Department with the intent to commit an illegal act;


Underage drinking is a crime in Virginia:

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-266.1

§ 18.2-266.1. Persons under age 21 driving after illegally consuming alcohol; penalty.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of 21 to operate any motor vehicle after illegally consuming alcohol. Any such person with a blood alcohol concentration of 0.02 percent or more by weight by volume or 0.02 grams or more per 210 liters of breath but less than 0.08 by weight by volume or less than 0.08 grams per 210 liters of breath as indicated by a chemical test administered as provided in this article shall be in violation of this section.

B. A violation of this section is a Class 1 misdemeanor. Punishment shall include (i) forfeiture of such person's license to operate a motor vehicle for a period of one year from the date of conviction and (ii) a mandatory minimum fine of $500 or performance of a mandatory minimum of 50 hours of community service. This suspension period shall be in addition to the suspension period provided under § 46.2-391.2. The penalties and license forfeiture provisions set forth in §§ 16.1-278.9, 18.2-270 and 18.2-271 shall not apply to a violation of this section. Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall be eligible to attend an Alcohol Safety Action Program under the provisions of § 18.2-271.1 and may, in the discretion of the court, be issued a restricted license during the term of license suspension.

C. Notwithstanding §§ 16.1-278.8 and 16.1-278.9, upon adjudicating a juvenile delinquent based upon a violation of this section, the juvenile and domestic relations district court shall order disposition as provided in subsection B.


Suspicion of the violation of either of those laws most certainly is a police matter.
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A fake driver's license is a different issue from a fake ID. A fake driver's license can be used to illegally operate a motor vehicle. An 18 year old having a bogus ID for some college that says he's 21 for purpose of getting into a bar is a completely different matter.
 
roguenuke said:
Having a fake ID is not "harmless". Now I personally feel the drinking age should be 18, however it currently is 21, so therefore should be enforced, particularly on public streets and in public establishments.

It is wrong to ignore the "trivial" laws in favor of only going after the larger ones. That doesn't work. You have to enforce the smaller laws at a reasonable level.
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As I mentioned above there's a wide range of "fake IDs". A kid with a bogus college ID is certainly not nearly as big a deal as a guy with fake driver's license or someone with fake police ID.

I agree with you on what the right drinking age should be. I still though think it's a waste of time and money to dedicate cops to enforcing it.

It isn't wrong to ignore trivial laws. We do it all the time.
 
Gaius46 said:
A fake driver's license is a different issue from a fake ID. A fake driver's license can be used to illegally operate a motor vehicle. An 18 year old having a bogus ID for some college that says he's 21 for purpose of getting into a bar is a completely different matter.
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Still illegal.

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-204.2

§ 18.2-204.2. Manufacture, sale, etc., or possession of fictitious, facsimile or simulated official license or identification; penalty.

A. Except as provided in subsection D of § 18.2-204.1, it shall be unlawful for any person to manufacture, advertise for sale, sell or possess any fictitious, facsimile or simulated driver's license issued by any state, territory or possession of the United States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico or any foreign country or government; United States Armed Forces identification card; United States passport or foreign government visa; Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles special identification card; official identification issued by any other federal, state or foreign government agency; or official university or college student identification card, or in any way reproduce any identification card or facsimile thereof in such a manner that it could be mistaken for a valid license or identification of any type specified in this subsection.

B. Any person manufacturing, advertising for sale, selling or reproducing such card or facsimile thereof shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

C. Any person possessing any such card or facsimile thereof shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

D. The provisions of this section shall not preclude an election to prosecute under § 18.2-172, except to prosecute for forgery or uttering of such license or identification card or facsimile thereof as proof of age.

(1980, c. 281; 1989, c. 705; 1992, c. 531; 2006, cc. 445, 484; 2011, c. 401.)
 
Gaius46 said:
As I mentioned above there's a wide range of "fake IDs". A kid with a bogus college ID is certainly not nearly as big a deal as a guy with fake driver's license or someone with fake police ID.

I agree with you on what the right drinking age should be. I still though think it's a waste of time and money to dedicate cops to enforcing it.

It isn't wrong to ignore trivial laws. We do it all the time.
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And when we ignore laws such as drinking age or having a fake ID (which the suspicion involved here was having a fake license, not college ID), we see that other crimes go up. However, when the lesser laws are enforced (not necessarily with harsh punishment, just enforced), larger crime rates drop as well. Generally, this is seen as happening because it locks up those who would work there way up or because it catches those who have already done something and are wanted or suspected for something else, or can be identified by information gathered/had.
 
Gaius46 said:
A fake driver's license is a different issue from a fake ID. A fake driver's license can be used to illegally operate a motor vehicle. An 18 year old having a bogus ID for some college that says he's 21 for purpose of getting into a bar is a completely different matter.
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He was using his Illinois driver's license, not his college ID. College ID's show your college, not the state you are from and the owner of the pub said he noticed that the kid had an ID from Illinois.
 
roguenuke said:
We have no idea how he acted to the cops, and due to the poor policy of the owner of the pub in how he checks IDs, suspicion, even if the ID wasn't fake, caused the encounter. We don't actually know the kid wasn't drinking, which is illegal, only that his buddies and others claim he wasn't "intoxicated".
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You have multiple people including the bar owner say he didn't appear intoxicated.

He's an honor student.

He was CORDIAL to the bouncer.

It is NOT illegal to try to enter a public establishment, their "policy" is not enforcable law.


What was the officers REASONABLE suspicion to detain this gentleman.




again, honor student, no record, "leader", "cordial", apparently not intoxicated, broke no laws. ends up bloody on the ground being arrested.
 
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