Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

ReverendHellh0und · Mar 24, 2015

UVA Student Arrest 'Disturbing,' Charlottesville Police Chief Says - ABC News

""Law enforcement depends so much on its relationship with its citizens, if any aspect of our citizenry feels threatened, feels that they're not being treated fairly, that disrupts my ability to have that relationship and carry out the function of what I call relational policing," Longo said on "This Week.""

A lot of cop apologists, and LEO's should adopt this mantra.

JasperL · Mar 24, 2015

Ockham said:
Of course - anything to educate the masses:

Great, thanks!

Yep and it's still true. Johnson attempting to get into the bar being underage was the catalyst for ABC going after him.

First of all, yesterday you called me a liar for (I assume) misstating your position that trying to enter a bar is a 'crime.' So I quote you twice making that assertion, and now I'm not a liar, and you are sticking to the claim that you called me a liar for stating yesterday? It's hard to debate when you can't keep your story straight from one day to the next.

Second, it might have been the catalyst, but it's not a crime for a person underage to be in a bar, and it's not a crime for a 20 year old to try to get in a bar that has a POLICY of only admitting those 21 or over.

And that difference is a key point - the ABC agents had no basis to stop Johnson. He was carded, provided a valid ID, was turned away, and the entire exchange between bouncer and Johnson was cordial. He broke no law tying to enter the bar. So why was he detained? We can only guess. Maybe they thought he tried to use a fake ID, but he didn't. And in the course of interrogating him about a crime he didn't commit, Johnson ended up on the ground, bloodied, then arrested.

You claimed I made up the law of entering a bar under 21. You claimed I made up charges ... I've posted verifiable facts and links with them. \

No, you didn't. You provided a link, and that link said nothing about "entering a bar under 21." If you want, follow your link and quote the law that says it's illegal for someone age 20 to be in a place that serves alcohol.

That's a rhetorical request because there is no such law. THAT bar allows underage people in on some nights after 10pm, and on any night before 10pm. They can waive their policy of 21 or over at any time for any reason the bar owners want. It's bar policy, not law, to restrict bar patrons to over age 21 on some nights during some hours.

Did he have a parent or guardian with him? No. Again, don't insult my intelligence - he was trying to get into the bar on St. Pattys day to drink. Suggesting otherwise is beyond insipid.

A 20 year old doesn't need a parent or guardian to enter an establishment that serves alcohol. Fact. And you don't know if he intended to drink or not. Also fact. It's nice you assume that, and maybe you're right, but until he does drink or tries to buy alcohol, he has committed no crime.

There's no if's about it. I did and I stand by it. If you want to have a civilized discussion I'd suggest your posts rely less on emotion and more on facts.

LOL. I'm pointing out you have your "facts" wrong. All you need to do to shut me up is quote the statute.

Ockham · Mar 24, 2015

JasperL said:
Great, thanks!

First of all, yesterday you called me a liar for (I assume) misstating your position that trying to enter a bar is a 'crime.'

I've already addressed this. See prior post.

JasperL said:
Second, it might have been the catalyst, but it's not a crime for a person underage to be in a bar, and it's not a crime for a 20 year old to try to get in a bar that has a POLICY of only admitting those 21 or over.

Actually it is - if it wasn't then the bouncer would have let him in. If it wasn't the catalyst the ABC officers who were watching the Irish Pub carefully that day (St. Patricks Day) wouldn't have noticed. So the point you think you've posted isn't a point as it's not substantiated by fact.

JasperL said:
And that difference is a key point - the ABC agents had no basis to stop Johnson.

Quote which law prevents ABC from stopping Johnson. When you cannot, it's a nice opinion, but nothing more.

JasperL said:
No, you didn't. You provided a link, and that link said nothing about "entering a bar under 21."

The link I just provided did that but okay here's another one. There are quite a few so I have a lot of options for links:
Virginia DUI Laws - FindLaw

JasperL said:
That's a rhetorical request because there is no such law.

Did Johnson have a parent or guardian with him when trying to enter the Irish Pub? Yes or No? Since you cannot post honestly, I will answer for you: The answer is NO.

JasperL said:
A 20 year old doesn't need a parent or guardian to enter an establishment that serves alcohol. Fact.

Then cite your supporting fact with a verifiable link as it applies to Virginia. Until you do that, more nonsense opinion won't cut it.

JasperL said:
LOL. I'm pointing out you have your "facts" wrong.

I'm sure YOU believe that but your emotional posts related to Johnson are not contrary facts. Sorry.

JasperL · Mar 24, 2015

Ockham said:
Actually it is - if it wasn't then the bouncer would have let him in. If it wasn't the catalyst the ABC officers who were watching the Irish Pub carefully that day (St. Patricks Day) wouldn't have noticed. So the point you think you've posted isn't a point as it's not substantiated by fact.

The bar had a policy of not admitting those under age 21 on some nights during some hours. That's different than a law.

The bouncer at the door (an owner as it turned out with Johnson) was employed to enforce bar policy, not enforce the law.

These are very simple and easily distinguished concepts. I'm not sure why you refuse to do so.

Quote which law prevents ABC from stopping Johnson. When you cannot, it's a nice opinion, but nothing more.

I said they had no basis to stop him, not that it was ILLEGAL to stop him.

But the reason it's important is I've read several articles, and some people on this thread, have implied that if a person doesn't break the law, bad things won't happen. Johnson broke no law, and somehow he ended up bloodied and arrested because of how he dealt with cops who stopped him for no reason. He wasn't drunk, wasn't disorderly, was cordial to the bar owner, and was breaking no law trying to enter the bar. So why was he detained/questioned by ABC agents? Who knows? He was arrested because he mildly objected to an interrogation for no reason.

The link I just provided did that but okay here's another one. There are quite a few so I have a lot of options for links:
Virginia DUI Laws - FindLaw

Hilarious. You made the claim, and cannot back it up. You know that link doesn't say anything about the "crime" of being under age 21 in a place that serves alcohol. Who do you think you're fooling?

Did Johnson have a parent or guardian with him when trying to enter the Irish Pub? Yes or No? Since you cannot post honestly, I will answer for you: The answer is NO.

I'll post honestly - it's a moot point whether he had a parent or guardian with him when trying to enter the pub. It's perfectly legal for an unaccompanied 20 year old to be in the Irish Pub. So the more complete answer is, "NO, and it makes no difference to anything at all that he didn't."

Then cite your supporting fact with a verifiable link as it applies to Virginia. Until you do that, more nonsense opinion won't cut it.

That's not how it works. You made the claim, and it's up to you to support your claim. Asking me to do the impossible and prove a negative is hilariously illegitimate.

And the funny thing is it's BAR POLICY, and therefore obviously legal for a person underage to be in the Irish Pub before 10pm, and on some nights after 10pm. So you're making the extraordinary claim that when it's bar POLICY to only admit those over age 21, that violating bar POLICY becomes a crime.

Ockham · Mar 24, 2015

JasperL said:
The bar had a policy of not admitting those under age 21 on some nights during some hours. That's different than a law.

I've already provided you this link prior - which you do not seem to acknowledge.

APIS - State Profiles of Underage Drinking Laws

This outlines the law as it applies to minors entering establishments. That is the law, and while I'm sure the Irish Pub had it's own policy - the policy they have in place protects their liquor license and therefore follows the law - especially on St. Patricks Day.

JasperL said:
The bouncer at the door (an owner as it turned out with Johnson) was employed to enforce bar policy, not enforce the law.

That's not correct. Bouncers are there to check to make sure people who enter are legally of age to enter the establishment. Yes he enforces the bars policy but also enforces the law - just as the bartender is responsible for making sure patrons are of age. Suggesting otherwise, especially in Johnsons case which was on St. Patricks Day, is an insult to the intelligence.

JasperL said:
These are very simple and easily distinguished concepts. I'm not sure why you refuse to do so.

You're concepts assume one to be stupid to believe it. I am neither stupid nor do I see your posts as anything but opinion. I have posted facts, laws, verifiable. You have done nothing to rebut that but provide opinion which I of course reject.

JasperL said:
I said they had no basis to stop him, not that it was ILLEGAL to stop him.

Show me a law that says it's illegal. You cannot. Therefore your statement is not based in fact but fiction.

JasperL said:
But the reason it's important is I've read several articles, and some people on this thread, have implied that if a person doesn't break the law, bad things won't happen. Johnson broke no law, and somehow he ended up bloodied and arrested because of how he dealt with cops who stopped him for no reason. He wasn't drunk, wasn't disorderly, was cordial to the bar owner. So why was he detained? Who knows? He was arrested because he mildly objected to an interrogation for no reason.

You have failed to prove any of that. You've provided no breathalyzer data, you've been provided facts that show ABC DOES have the ability to stop and question someone, you have been provided facts that show Johnson illegally tried to enter an bar on St. Patricks Day without a parent or guardian which is against the law (link provided now twice) was turned away and ABC questioned him. The facts are the facts... you wish to promote and advocate fiction.

JasperL said:
Hilarious. You made the claim, and cannot back it up.

I've posted the link now twice in this thread. Fact.

JasperL said:
I'll post honestly -

That would be a change.

JasperL said:
That's not how it works. You made the claim, and it's up to you to support your claim.

Already supported with facts and verifiable links.

JasperL said:
And the funny thing is it's perfectly legal for a person underage to be in the Irish Pub before 10pm, and on some nights after 10pm. So you're making a claim that when it's bar POLICY to only admit those over age 21, that violating bar POLICY becomes a crime.

Post the verifiable law with a link that states that. I've seen you make a claim but nothing to support it.

I on the other hand have provided laws and a link (see above) that contradicts your opinion about some fictional legal ability to be in an Irish Pub before 10 pm. Prove it. :coffeepap:

JasperL · Mar 24, 2015

Ockham said:
I've already provided you this link prior - which you do not seem to acknowledge.

APIS - State Profiles of Underage Drinking Laws

This outlines the law as it applies to minors entering establishments. That is the law, and while I'm sure the Irish Pub had it's own policy - the policy they have in place protects their liquor license and therefore follows the law - especially on St. Patricks Day.

There's a reason you gave a link without quoting the relevant statute. You know the link doesn't support your claim. Quote the section dealing with "minors entering establishments."

Again, it's a rhetorical request because your link says nothing about that. It has a lot of rules about selling alcohol to minors, underage consumption, possession etc. of alcohol, but nothing at all about minors 'entering establishments' that serve alcohol.

That's not correct. Bouncers are there to check to make sure people who enter are legally of age to enter the establishment. Yes he enforces the bars policy but also enforces the law - just as the bartender is responsible for making sure patrons are of age. Suggesting otherwise, especially in Johnsons case which was on St. Patricks Day, is an insult to the intelligence.

If this was a Monday night, bouncers don't check ID at the door. If it's before 10pm, at least on nights NOT St. Patrick's Day, they don't check ID. If you want to assert some law that makes it ILLEGAL, aka a crime, to enter a bar after 10pm, cite it. You can't do it.

You're concepts assume one to be stupid to believe it. I am neither stupid nor do I see your posts as anything but opinion. I have posted facts, laws, verifiable. You have done nothing to rebut that but provide opinion which I of course reject.

No, you've posted links that fail to prove anything. Hilarious.

Show me a law that says it's illegal. You cannot. Therefore your statement is not based in fact but fiction.

Goodness - I say it's not illegal for ABC to stop Johnson, and you ask me to cite a law to prove it's illegal, which I just said it's not. What I said was there was no basis - he broke no law, wasn't being disruptive, was cordial at the bar, etc. They CAN LEGALLY stop a 93 year old grandma at 11am on Sunday morning in a wheelchair and interrogate her, I suppose, but there would be no BASIS for such an act. See the point? It's simple, really.

You have failed to prove any of that. You've provided no breathalyzer data, you've been provided facts that show ABC DOES have the ability to stop and question someone, you have been provided facts that show Johnson illegally tried to enter an bar on St. Patricks Day without a parent or guardian which is against the law (link provided now twice) was turned away and ABC questioned him. The facts are the facts... you wish to promote and advocate fiction.

Your link is BS and you know it. If you want to prove me wrong, quote the relevant section of your link. It shouldn't take much effort..... I'll be waiting!

Post the verifiable law with a link that states that. I've seen you make a claim but nothing to support it.

OK, here's how to properly support a claim. First is the link: Trinity Irish Pub Releases Statement on Wednesday's Incident - NBC29 WVIR Charlottesville, VA News, Sports and Weather

And now I'll quote from that link the part that supports my assertion:

Because it serves alcohol to its patrons, Trinity is licensed and regulated by Virginia's Alcohol Beverage Control Board. In a college town, ensuring that underage patrons are not served alcohol is a priority. The management of Trinity have found it best to enact a strict 21 and over policy after 10pm during busy evenings for the establishment, generally Tuesday through Saturday evenings. Trinity believes this notably limits the possibility of underage students attempting to gain access to the restaurant. A 10pm timeframe is fair because it allows underage students to still dine at our restaurant for a late dinner. At 10pm, Trinity switches over to our late night food menu. Once 10pm comes, under no circumstances do we allow anyone under the age of 21 to enter the establishment. However, there are special circumstances, such as parties renting out the restaurant, when Trinity will allow underage patrons.

Policy =/= law.

I on the other hand have provided laws and a link (see above) that contradicts your opinion about some fictional legal ability to be in an Irish Pub before 10 pm. Prove it. :coffeepap:

I just did - see the statement above!

eace

Ockham · Mar 24, 2015

JasperL said:
There's a reason you gave a link without quoting the relevant statute. You know the link doesn't support your claim. Quote the section dealing with "minors entering establishments."

Again, it's a rhetorical request because your link says nothing about that. It has a lot of rules about selling alcohol to minors, underage consumption, possession etc. of alcohol, but nothing at all about minors 'entering establishments' that serve alcohol.

If this was a Monday night, bouncers don't check ID at the door. If it's before 10pm, at least on nights NOT St. Patrick's Day, they don't check ID. If you want to assert some law that makes it ILLEGAL, aka a crime, to enter a bar after 10pm, cite it. You can't do it.

No, you've posted links that fail to prove anything. Hilarious.

Goodness - I say it's not illegal for ABC to stop Johnson, and you ask me to cite a law to prove it's illegal, which I just said it's not. What I said was there was no basis - he broke no law, wasn't being disruptive, was cordial at the bar, etc. They CAN LEGALLY stop a 93 year old grandma at 11am on Sunday morning in a wheelchair and interrogate her, I suppose, but there would be no BASIS for such an act. See the point? It's simple, really.

Your link is BS and you know it. If you want to prove me wrong, quote the relevant section of your link. It shouldn't take much effort..... I'll be waiting!

OK, here's how to properly support a claim. First is the link: Trinity Irish Pub Releases Statement on Wednesday's Incident - NBC29 WVIR Charlottesville, VA News, Sports and Weather

And now I'll quote from that link the part that supports my assertion:

Policy =/= law.

I just did - see the statement above! eace

Summary:
You didn't post the law that states ABC officers cannot stop Johnson.
You posted a article with a statement by the Pub's co owner but no verifiable law nor a link.

I've already addressed the rest of your fiction. Anything new you'd like to discuss?

roguenuke · Mar 24, 2015

tres borrachos said:
Apparently it's enough to need surgery, all of a sudden.

How come they didn't do surgery on my 15 year old when he fell and cut his head? Some stitches, a few pain pills, and we were on our way. I feel slighted.

My son when he was two fell and busted open his head, requiring three staples. It took about 20 minutes at the hospital to clean his head and put the staples in, and he wasn't even bleeding by the time we got him there or even just got him into the car to go, although he bled heavily the first 10 or so minutes, while we kept pressure to his head. It was not "surgery". Heck, my brother had fifty something stitches in his back as a child and it wasn't considered surgery (had two different occasions of getting them in his head too).

roguenuke · Mar 24, 2015

Gaius46 said:
First I think the kid was of age and had a valid ID. Even if he didn't underage kids sneaking into bars is as old as drinking age laws. BFD. There's no reason it should have escalated. There's no reason for the heavy hand of the law here.

No. The linked article says the kid was 20. Drinking age is 21.

roguenuke · Mar 24, 2015

JasperL said:
I don't know this, which is why I said it "appears to be" not showing the proper respect. He (apparently) wasn't drunk, wasn't using a fake ID, wasn't charged with using or threatening any force against the cops, but was bloodied and arrested and charged with BS crimes.

He was 20. How was he planning on getting into the bars if he didn't have a fake ID?

Ockham · Mar 24, 2015

roguenuke said:
He was 20. How was he planning on getting into the bars if he didn't have a fake ID?

According to some in this thread, the law doesn't matter you see.... underage kids can enter pubs without a parent or guardian until 10 pm even on St. Patricks Day, one of the heaviest drinking days of the entire year and in a college town no less! :lamo

roguenuke · Mar 24, 2015

JasperL said:
Several articles have reported he passed a breathalyzer test. We're not even sure he was drunk.

Passed, as in less than .08? Or no alcohol at all? He was underage, 20. That means any BAC reading (most states are above .02 I believe) is grounds for being cited for underage drinking/intoxication.

clownboy · Mar 24, 2015

Ockham said:
According to some in this thread, the law doesn't matter you see.... underage kids can enter pubs without a parent or guardian until 10 pm even on St. Patricks Day, one of the heaviest drinking days of the entire year and in a college town no less! :lamo

I believe that localities/states that allow this define pubs differently than they do bars. Usually has to do with food service.

Ockham · Mar 24, 2015

clownboy said:
I believe that localities/states that allow this define pubs differently than they do bars. Usually has to do with food service.

On non holidays sure... but not St. Pattys Day, which is why Johnson was not allowed entry and why ABC was out in force and keeping a much keener eye on things.

roguenuke · Mar 24, 2015

JasperL said:
I'm aware that cops are not forced to allege the maximum charge allowable. But if they write a ticket for doing 65 in a 50, it's not a fair assumption the person was doing 80. The evidence shows the person was doing 65. Maybe some facts emerge that indicate the person was doing 80 but until then the only reasonable conclusion is the person was doing 65, the speed marked on the ticket.

The police arrested a person and had the choice to indicate with or without threat or force. When they indicated "NO THRT/FORCE" that means something important, that the police don't have evidence to charge/prove Johnson used threats or force.

In many cases, the person was doing 70 or 80 but the cop goes easier on them for generally respectful or "good" behavior or something else. There are a lot of places where for every mph over the speed limit, the fine increases by so much money. In some places, the difference between a reckless driving charge and a speeding fine is 14 or 15 miles over the speed limit.

JasperL · Mar 24, 2015

Ockham said:
Summary:
You didn't post the law that states ABC officers cannot stop Johnson.

It's because the stop was legal, but baseless, as I said.

You posted a article with a statement by the Pub's co owner but no verifiable law nor a link.

The statement of bar POLICY is a verifiable link. And you're the one asserting that it's a crime to be age 20 in the Irish Pub. The burden is on you. I cannot prove a negative beyond pointing out the obvious that the bar is heavily regulated and overseen by ABC and issued a public statement that it allows underage people before 10pm and on some nights after 10pm.

Besides, Trinity serves liquor, and so in VA must derive at least 45% of its sales from food. You go to restaurants that serve liquor - is it illegal for underage patrons to be in restaurants where you live? Of course it's not, unless you live in the Bible belt, if such a thing exists in NJ. So why would it be illegal in Charlottesville, VA?

I've already addressed the rest of your fiction. Anything new you'd like to discuss?

Sure, quote the relevant law from those links you keep posting. I'm really curious what law you're relying on.... :roll:

roguenuke · Mar 24, 2015

Somerville said:
From the UVa student newspaper, The Cavalier Daily, we can read a bit more about what happened that night

So why did the ABC police grab Johnson?

It seems he did have a fake ID or something if the bouncer questioned it and he was 20. That would be more than cause for the ABC or police to stop him if they felt that he had a fake ID. He was underage and trying to get into a bar. It is possible that the bouncer didn't look well at the ID at first and it clearly showed he was underage, rather than it being fake, but it depends on if they have different licenses for those under 21 than those 21 and over in the state he's from.

roguenuke · Mar 24, 2015

JasperL said:
It's because the stop was legal, but baseless, as I said.

The statement of bar POLICY is a verifiable link. And you're the one asserting that it's a crime to be age 20 in the Irish Pub. The burden is on you. I cannot prove a negative beyond pointing out the obvious that the bar is heavily regulated and overseen by ABC and issued a public statement that it allows underage people before 10pm and on some nights after 10pm.

Besides, Trinity serves liquor, and so in VA must derive at least 45% of its sales from food. You go to restaurants that serve liquor - is it illegal for underage patrons to be in restaurants where you live? Of course it's not, unless you live in the Bible belt, if such a thing exists in NJ. So why would it be illegal in Charlottesville, VA?

Sure, quote the relevant law from those links you keep posting. I'm really curious what law you're relying on.... :roll:

He was trying to get into a bar not a restaurant, and if the bouncer was questioning his zip code, this would lead to officers in the area suspecting the kid had a fake ID (it says he was having trouble providing the bouncer with the correct zip code on the ID). This does fall under a legitimate reason to stop a person, since in pretty much every state it would be illegal to have a fake ID.

JasperL · Mar 24, 2015

Ockham said:
According to some in this thread, the law doesn't matter you see.... underage kids can enter pubs without a parent or guardian until 10 pm even on St. Patricks Day, one of the heaviest drinking days of the entire year and in a college town no less! :lamo

You're laughing but have repeatedly failed to cite any law that makes it illegal , a crime, for Johnson to enter the Trinity Irish Pub on St. Patrick's Day.

So the point is the law in fact does matter, and it was legal for him to enter, legal for him to try to enter. Only BAR POLICY restricted him from entering, and violating or attempting to violate bar POLICY is not a crime. And that it was not a crime to try to enter would also explain why ABC didn't charge him with your made up crime. They, unlike you, would have to cite an actual section of the Virginia Code, and the section prohibiting minors from restaurants that serve alcohol does not exist.

Ockham · Mar 24, 2015

JasperL said:
It's because the stop was legal, but baseless, as I said.

Well that's a change since in post #180 you stated this:

JasperL said:
I said they had no basis to stop him, not that it was ILLEGAL to stop him.

Clearly you stated it was ILLEGAL - and you even capitalized it to stress the illegality. I'm glad you have seen the light.

Now why do you say it was baseless?

JasperL said:
The statement of bar POLICY is a verifiable link.

That is a statement by the owner, not a verifiable fact. Where is the law that supports the owners opinion? You have not provided it.

JasperL said:
Besides, Trinity serves liquor, and so in VA must derive at least 45% of its sales from food.

What % from food on St. Patricks Day? Did the article say or can you provide that information as a verifiable fact with a link?

Again... anything new because we've been over this multiple times now.

Ockham · Mar 24, 2015

JasperL said:
You're laughing but have repeatedly failed to cite any law that makes it illegal , a crime, for Johnson to enter the Trinity Irish Pub on St. Patrick's Day.

I've posted the link twice... here it is a third time.

APIS - State Profiles of Underage Drinking Laws

roguenuke · Mar 24, 2015

clownboy said:
I believe that localities/states that allow this define pubs differently than they do bars. Usually has to do with food service.

The thing is though, why would the bouncer/owner have to ask the kid about his zip code if he had a license/ID card that showed his real age in the first place? They already reported he was under 21. The owner of the pub could have simply said "you're under 21, we can't let you in here right now, since our policy is no one under 21 after this time at night". It doesn't make any sense that it was his ID if the bouncer/owner of the pub asked such a question. Unless he simply looked at the ID wrong.

clownboy · Mar 24, 2015

roguenuke said:
The thing is though, why would the bouncer/owner have to ask the kid about his zip code if he had a license/ID card that showed his real age in the first place? They already reported he was under 21. The owner of the pub could have simply said "you're under 21, we can't let you in here right now, since our policy is no one under 21 after this time at night". It doesn't make any sense that it was his ID if the bouncer/owner of the pub asked such a question. Unless he simply looked at the ID wrong.

Could be for the correct stamp or wristband. Especially on celebration days pubs that allow underage folks in have different stamps or wristbands for those who can legally drink and those who cannot. The fake ID would take the presenter into illegal territory. It's not legal to have a fake ID no matter how you slice it.

JasperL · Mar 24, 2015

roguenuke said:
He was trying to get into a bar not a restaurant, and if the bouncer was questioning his zip code, this would lead to officers in the area suspecting the kid had a fake ID (it says he was having trouble providing the bouncer with the correct zip code on the ID). This does fall under a legitimate reason to stop a person, since in pretty much every state it would be illegal to have a fake ID.

It was in fact a restaurant. You can view the menu here: Trinity Irish Pub | Charlottesville, VaTrinity Irish Pub | Charlottesville, Va There is no law or state rule that prohibits underage patrons from entering, before, or after 10pm. That's only bar policy.

And I've already speculated the ABC agents might have suspected he used fake ID. But the accounts are he was polite and cordial at the bar, was peacefully walking away, and still detained. And because he was insufficiently subservient to police questioning him about his VALID ID, he was arrested. How he reacted to the detention/questioning was the 'crime.' My discussion with Ockham began when he asserted the original crime was trying to enter a bar - that's false. He committed no crime at all except he didn't behave properly for the ABC agents, without force....

JasperL · Mar 24, 2015

Ockham said:
I've posted the link twice... here it is a third time.

APIS - State Profiles of Underage Drinking Laws

Yeah, you keep posting the link and hilariously cannot quote the relevant section from it because IT DOES NOT EXIST AT YOUR LINK.

Students, governor want U.Va. student arrest investigated

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.

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