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Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership [W:251]

Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Mithros said:
They don't have to conduct negotiations. Carrying out direct contact with a foreign government with intent to influence official negotiations violates the Logan act. The Logan act was passed in 1799 to prevent a similar occurrence where the opposition party attempted to influence negotiations with the French Government.
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nope... you're wrong.

the phrase "without authority of the United States" screws up your entire Logan act argument.

sitting Senators , by definition, are exempt from this act
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

matchlight said:
I have come to expect the leftist members of the lumpenproletariat who serve as President Pinocchio's rear guard to act like very witless children. And I'm seldom disappointed.
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Obama is trying to work out an incredibly difficult deal to prevent Iran from getting the bomb, and the Republicans in congress and all (unless I've missed any exceptions) of the ones in this thread think it's a hilarious little game to play for political points. The children here are the conservatives, who have once again proven themselves unfit to govern.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

What this group of Republicans did is irresponsible. Does anyone know of similar action by Congress in the last 50 years?
As mentioned, no one knows what the deal entails. The Republicans appear to have had, trial, judgment and execution on this deal without knowledge of the deal.
Now is that leadership, when they will know within the next few weeks or months what the deal will entail?
And I see how Republicans slam Obama over Cuba - a failed policy- and largely handled and publicly opposed by Cuban immigrants.
A hot button issues where candidates suck up for support and have to maintain the hardline against Cuba.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Thrilla said:
yeah, sorry, the Logan act does not apply to Congressmen acting on their authority.


are you going to argue that US Senators acting in their official capacity do not have the authority of the United States?... I'd rethink that premise, if i were you.


the Logan act was meant to prevent private citizens, without authority of the united states, from undermining negotiations
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The Logan Act clearly doesn't prevent congress from acting on their authority. However the founding fathers, (ie the people who passed the Logan Act) made it clear that negotiations with other governments can only be carried out by the executive branch. In fact the Logan act was passed by Federalists in response to Republicans conducting back door communication with the French government. Your point isn't without merit and would certainly come up during any prosecution, but it's far from an obvious conclusion. If anything, because they did not inform the administration in any way before they sent this letter, it's likely that the senators were not acting on behalf of the US government.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Thrilla said:
nope... you're wrong.

the phrase "without authority of the United States" screws up your entire Logan act argument.

sitting Senators , by definition, are exempt from this act
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Such brilliance.

But if I may be so bold.... Do you by any chance have any legal reasoning to go along with your complete certainty? For example, would a small town mayor also be exempt?
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

CanadaJohn said:
It's not wrong, legally, although you may disagree with the action or the motive as you perceive it. That just makes it controversial, which I agree it is. The Republicans in the Senate who signed the letter, however, aren't the only people who want to see more out of these negotiations and if that undermines Obama's weak position, so be it.

As for the sanctions - we agree - which should also enforce that the Senate Republicans are right and if Obama is in any way promising that all US sanctions will be dropped, the Iranians are wise to be wary that the US, through Obama, isn't trustworthy. It's not unlike Obama to promise something he knows is literally false and not his to grant.
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It is wrong. There's a reason the Logan Act was passed...because dealing with foreign countries isn't like a domestic squabble over domestic legislation. There's one voice and one main branch....the Executive Branch. The Senate ratifies long term treaties and Congress declares wars...two of the most extreme foreign actions the country takes...but the President is in charge of foreign policy.

Republicans have this idea in their head that if they don't like the President they can pretend he doesn't exist and undermine him at every opportunity. The fact is, what they've done is pretty much push away Democrats that may of sided with them because they've turned foreign policy into a partisan affair. Once again though...the Republicans have opened a door so don't be surprised when Democrats walk through it in the future. The amount of bitching and complaining due to the ACA going through the reconciliation process is actually pretty satisfying since the budget busting Bush tax cuts were passed that way. You reap what you sow. A large part of American politics is about norms...and Republicans have thrown all norms aside...from govt shutdowns to abusing reconciliation to undermining the President to rampant use of the filibuster. Those all have consequences...
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Mithros said:
The Logan Act clearly doesn't prevent congress from acting on their authority. However the founding fathers, (ie the people who passed the Logan Act) made it clear that negotiations with other governments can only be carried out by the executive branch. In fact the Logan act was passed by Federalists in response to Republicans conducting back door communication with the French government. Your point isn't without merit and would certainly come up during any prosecution, but it's far from an obvious conclusion. If anything, because they did not inform the administration in any way before they sent this letter, it's likely that the senators were not acting on behalf of the US government.
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there will be no prosecutions or even charges... as I said, by definition, US senators actin on their authority are exempt from this act... that's been long settled.


any consequences these Senators feel will be political.... there will be no criminal charges.

additionally, Republicans did not exist at the time of the Logan act.... Logan was, in fact, a Democratic-Republican.

Logan was a state legislator when he acted... ergo, he had no authority of the United States to act on...US senators, by definition, have that authority
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

To their credit (kind of) conservatives here know that congress screwed up big, which is why they're trying incessantly to deflect their action by saying, "But...Obama hasn't earned our trust!" as if that had any bearing on scuttling a crucial deal to prevent an unfriendly country from attaining the bomb and thus destabilizing the region even more. Rest assured, Iran will walk out of the negotiations now, they'll get the bomb, and Republicans will own it. The conservatives here know deep down that the Republicans ****ed up royally, and that this is something they never would have supported until Obama became their only reason for living and fighting.

This has gone far beyond "derangement" and has now officially escalated to full blown sickness.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

iliveonramen said:
It is wrong. There's a reason the Logan Act was passed...because dealing with foreign countries isn't like a domestic squabble over domestic legislation. There's one voice and one main branch....the Executive Branch. The Senate ratifies long term treaties and Congress declares wars...two of the most extreme foreign actions the country takes...but the President is in charge of foreign policy.

Republicans have this idea in their head that if they don't like the President they can pretend he doesn't exist and undermine him at every opportunity. The fact is, what they've done is pretty much push away Democrats that may of sided with them because they've turned foreign policy into a partisan affair. Once again though...the Republicans have opened a door so don't be surprised when Democrats walk through it in the future. The amount of bitching and complaining due to the ACA going through the reconciliation process is actually pretty satisfying since the budget busting Bush tax cuts were passed that way. You reap what you sow. A large part of American politics is about norms...and Republicans have thrown all norms aside...from govt shutdowns to abusing reconciliation to undermining the President to rampant use of the filibuster. Those all have consequences...
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<sigh> the Logan act does not pertain to sitting US Senators.... it can't.

reaping an sowing is what this is all about, absolutely ... but both sides are reaping and sowing, not just one.
none of this stuff happen in a vacuum, despite what partisan hacks would lead us to believe.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Thrilla said:
nope... you're wrong.

the phrase "without authority of the United States" screws up your entire Logan act argument.

sitting Senators , by definition, are exempt from this act
Click to expand...

Senators do not have the "authority of the United States" to conduct diplomacy. If that's the case, a majority party in the Senate could conduct it's own foreign policy separate from the President....the role of Senate is to advise and consent in regards to foreign policy. The Executive Branch conducts foreign policy..has always been that way and still is.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Cardinal said:
To their credit (kind of) conservatives here know that congress screwed up big, which is why they're trying incessantly to deflect their action by saying, "But...Obama hasn't earned our trust!" as if that had any bearing on scuttling a crucial deal to prevent an unfriendly country from attaining the bomb and thus destabilizing the region even more. Rest assured, Iran will walk out of the negotiations now, they'll get the bomb, and Republicans will own it. The conservatives here know deep down that the Republicans ****ed up royally.
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that depends on if they walk and.. and why.

it incredibly premature and hackish to declare it's all the Republicans fault, but we understand why you would do it.

I doubt this will amount to much myself...in terms of the negotiations... if it does, it might be beneficial
it looks now like Obama is allied with the Iranians against the Senators, so he might have some success due to the GOP's letter <shrug>
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

iliveonramen said:
Senators do not have the "authority of the United States" to conduct diplomacy. If that's the case, a majority party in the Senate could conduct it's own foreign policy separate from the President....the role of Senate is to advise and consent in regards to foreign policy. The Executive Branch conducts foreign policy..has always been that way and still is.
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from the State dept.. 1975.. read it slowly.
The clear intent of this provision [Logan Act] is to prohibit unauthorized persons from intervening in disputes between the United States and foreign governments. Nothing in section 953 [Logan Act], however, would appear to restrict members of the Congress from engaging in discussions with foreign officials in pursuance of their legislative duties under the Constitution.
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wake me when the prosecutions begin....:lamo
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Thrilla said:
that depends on if they walk and.. and why.

it incredibly premature and hackish to declare it's all the Republicans fault, but we understand why you would do it.

I doubt this will amount to much myself...in terms of the negotiations... if it does, it might be beneficial
it looks now like Obama is allied with the Iranians against the Senators, so he might have some success due to the GOP's letter <shrug>
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No, it's rare that I get to say this so definitively, but yeah, if the Iranians walk out on negotiations now (and I honestly can't see any reason why they wouldn't at this point), it's all Republicans' fault. All of it. You know this, I suspect, which is why you've adopted the attitude that this is all some hilarious and delightful game created for your personal amusement, and not a serious international negotiation on keeping a nuclear bomb out of an unfriendly country's hands.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Thrilla said:
there will be no prosecutions or even charges... as I said, by definition, US senators actin on their authority are exempt from this act... that's been long settled.


any consequences these Senators feel will be political.... there will be no criminal charges.

additionally, Republicans did not exist at the time of the Logan act.... Logan was, in fact, a Democratic-Republican.

Logan was a state legislator when he acted... ergo, he had no authority of the United States to act on...US senators, by definition, have that authority
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Long settled by what? Do you have a case? You can't just say that US senators by definition have that authority and then not be able to provide any sources for that authority. That's just sticking your fingers in your ear and screaming that you're right.

All official correspondence between the US government and other governments either comes out of the White House or the State Department. The Senate can't even appoint an ambassador. In previous cases it was deemed that the Congressmen involved were allowed to carry out communication with foreign leaders as part of their official duties as a lawmaker, provided that communication was not in conflict with ongoing official negotiations.

I was also going to point out that the Republicans were not the same Republicans of today, but I thought that the mention of Federalist opposition would suffice. It's quite accepted to refer to Jefferson’s party as Republicans.
History of the Federal Judiciary
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Thrilla said:
from the State dept.. 1975.. read it slowly.


wake me when the prosecutions begin....:lamo
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And which legislative duty is this?
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

iliveonramen said:
It is wrong. There's a reason the Logan Act was passed...because dealing with foreign countries isn't like a domestic squabble over domestic legislation. There's one voice and one main branch....the Executive Branch. The Senate ratifies long term treaties and Congress declares wars...two of the most extreme foreign actions the country takes...but the President is in charge of foreign policy.
Click to expand...

No. The President has the greatest freedom of maneuver in foreign policy, but foreign policy is not the executives sole prerogative any more than domestic policy is Congress's. You may have noticed how both the House and the Senate have a Foreign Relations Committee?

Republicans have this idea in their head that if they don't like the President they can pretend he doesn't exist and undermine him at every opportunity. The fact is, what they've done is pretty much push away Democrats that may of sided with them because they've turned foreign policy into a partisan affair. Once again though...the Republicans have opened a door so don't be surprised when Democrats walk through it in the future.
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Oh, the Irony.



Yeah. It's Republicans who decided to make foreign policy a partisan matter and establish the precedent of publicly disagreeing with a Presidents' policy platform in a way that might damage it's implementation. :roll:


Republicans warned Iran that the administration is attempting to sideline Congress in a questionable manner, making any deal with him shaky in order to make it harder for the President to give them nukes. Nancy Pelosi went to meet with a leader whose forces were actively aiding in the murder of US troops in Iraq and who was a major terrorist sponsor on top of being a massive human rights abuser in order to help protect him from administration pressure. Forgive me if I take Democrats being shocked - shocked! - to find gambling going on in Ricks Catina with a grain of salt. :roll:
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Morality Games said:
I'm a bit weary of hearing Republicans ranting about why they don't have to adhere to simple virtues like that when they fully expect Democrats to abide by them during Republican Administrations.
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Precisely. The history of one party disagreeing with the others' foreign policy regardless of who is President goes way back.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Cardinal said:
Obama is trying to work out an incredibly difficult deal to prevent Iran from getting the bomb,
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What in the world makes you think this? Obama is trying to work out any deal with Iran in order to have something to wave in the air and declare Peace In Our Time with. Whether Iran get's the bomb or not is strictly secondary - the main provision of the agreement seems to be that Iran not build a bomb until Obama is no longer President and it isn't his problem, and in order to protect it from review, the Administration has simply declared that it will not take it to the Senate.

and the Republicans in congress and all (unless I've missed any exceptions) of the ones in this thread think it's a hilarious little game to play for political points. The children here are the conservatives, who have once again proven themselves unfit to govern.
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Yeah. Republicans are the children because they aren't naïve enough to think that a nuclear Iran can be "managed" or is the "sensible" solution, and that makes them unfit to govern.

But Democrat leadership traveling to meet with Assad when he was supporting the killing of American servicemembers in Iraq, a major terror supporter, and a massive human rights abuser and declaring him part of the Path to Peace for no objective other than to protect him from Bush administration pressure and making the President look bad, that would be... . not disqualifying at all?




Everyone needs to pull their skirts off their heads. The astonishment that opposition parties in congress oppose a President they disagree with is about on par with the periodic defenses and attacks on the filibuster by whomever is in the majority/minority - nakedly partisan in it's position, and nakedly hypocritical.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Cardinal said:
To their credit (kind of) conservatives here know that congress screwed up big, which is why they're trying incessantly to deflect their action by saying, "But...Obama hasn't earned our trust!" as if that had any bearing on scuttling a crucial deal to prevent an unfriendly country from attaining the bomb and thus destabilizing the region even more. Rest assured, Iran will walk out of the negotiations now, they'll get the bomb, and Republicans will own it. The conservatives here know deep down that the Republicans ****ed up royally, and that this is something they never would have supported until Obama became their only reason for living and fighting.

This has gone far beyond "derangement" and has now officially escalated to full blown sickness.
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It's not a matter of trust. Obama with his pen and his phone doesn't play well in a government where the branches are co equal. Obama has had his way with congress for six years and the country has suffered for it. Now that the congress is lost to him, he's got to deal with the reality that congress has powers and responsibilities that he has no authority to usurp, regardless of his pen and phone.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

Mithros said:
They don't have to conduct negotiations. Carrying out direct contact with a foreign government with intent to influence official negotiations violates the Logan act. The Logan act was passed in 1799 to prevent a similar occurrence where the opposition party attempted to influence negotiations with the French Government.
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And again, what in the letter is a violation of the language of the act you presented?

And just for reference, what about Jimmy Carter's frequent visits to Palestine and contact with Palestinian leaders criticizing both Israel and the US relations and negotiations? What about Denis Rodman's visits to North Korea and contact with PRNK leadership?

Those two examples would be far more representative of interference in US relations and negotiations with a foreign government. Perhaps the law you reference, while not relevant in this particular case, is no longer relevant in any case.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

cpwill said:
What in the world makes you think this? Obama is trying to work out any deal with Iran in order to have something to wave in the air and declare Peace In Our Time with. Whether Iran get's the bomb or not is strictly secondary - the main provision of the agreement seems to be that Iran not build a bomb until Obama is no longer President and it isn't his problem, and in order to protect it from review, the Administration has simply declared that it will not take it to the Senate.



Yeah. Republicans are the children because they aren't naïve enough to think that a nuclear Iran can be "managed" or is the "sensible" solution, and that makes them unfit to govern.

But Democrat leadership traveling to meet with Assad when he was supporting the killing of American servicemembers in Iraq, a major terror supporter, and a massive human rights abuser and declaring him part of the Path to Peace for no objective other than to protect him from Bush administration pressure and making the President look bad, that would be... . not disqualifying at all?




Everyone needs to pull their skirts off their heads. The astonishment that opposition parties in congress oppose a President they disagree with is about on par with the periodic defenses and attacks on the filibuster by whomever is in the majority/minority - nakedly partisan in it's position, and nakedly hypocritical.
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Their skepticism doesn't make them childish. Their relentless substance-free, base rousing theatrics do that.

Principally, the Republicans have no business torpedoing this treaty because no great deeds are forthcoming on their part. They aren't willing to follow it up with an alternative other than more saber rattling. Rattling sabers didn't stop North Korea from getting the bomb, and Iran is much more capable. They'll succeed sooner or later if they want to. Beside that, Bush's interventionist foreign policies in the Middle East have almost uniformly failed, creating far more instability than democracy. Every U.S. boot in the Middle East lets ISIS recruit 20 more farmers from the field. Its a premature fulfillment of the Caliphate Osama bin Laden hoped to accomplish by baiting America into the Middle East.

I'll also point all that the treaty loses us nothing. If the Iranians break it, we can pursue alternatives as planned. If they don't break it and we want to pursue those alternatives anyway, the State Department of the sitting president can simply declare that they broke it, the same thing Bush did to get into Iraq. Establishing diplomatic and economic relations with Iran at least boxes their government between a rock in a hard place between pursuing nuclear capability and bringing their people jobs and prosperity.
 
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Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

ReverendHellh0und said:
Of course not. stop trying to paint those who don't approve of the current administration as kooks, it makes you look like an extremist. ;)
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Oh please. "Obama is handing Iran nukes" isn't extremist?
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

iliveonramen said:
Nobody in this thread has any idea what is in the agreement yet want to undermine and attack it because....well Obama.
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No agreement exists right now. The parties are still negotiating.

Having said that, I believe the better course would have been the Senate's declaring its intent to take up any agreement for review rather than the clumsy approach that was pursued via the letter.
 
Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

donsutherland1 said:
No agreement exists right now. The parties are still negotiating.

Having said that, I believe the better course would have been the Senate's declaring its intent to take up any agreement for review rather than the clumsy approach that was pursued via the letter.
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I agree... but there's one wrinkle.

the Obama administration has already declared, before the election, he would be bypassing congress on not only the deal, but the sanctions as well.
the Senate wants to play their part in this deal...they've simply been refused.
 
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