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Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

matchlight said:
What if the members of a non-white fraternity had thrown a party at which they played rap music containing obscene slurs against whites, along with the wholesome and delightful calls for killing police and raping women that are common in that music? Should the university discipline them too? I know how much soi-disant liberals detest the First Amendment, but some of us had imagined that people did not waive their freedom of speech by enrolling in a state university.

It's ironic what "liberal" has come to mean--nasty, intolerant, little prigs. Forty years ago, Jewish lawyers who were real liberals fought hard for the right of a bunch of Nazi goofballs to parade, in full regalia, through a town they picked exactly because many of its residents were Jewish survivors of Nazi concentration camps.
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I'm a liberal and do not support the expulsion of the idiot racists for being idiot racists (I'm fine with the fraternity being disbanded). ACLU is generally considered liberal and they're already on record defending free speech rights of idiot racists in cases like this. Boren was a democrat in office, but hardly a liberal, and he's the one who decided to expel the students. Maybe you should engage with liberals on this thread who have supported them being expelled instead of swinging at straw men.
 
clownboy said:
Except you're never going to find promotion in the limited way you are asking. People hide things that will get them in trouble. Organizations are generally very effective at it. That's why the pattern of actual behavior is significant/telling.

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A national group promoting racism is a pretty serious accusation. If there's evidence that they've promoted racism, I'd like to see it. So far, nothing.
 
tres borrachos said:
I sang songs while I was a Greek. One of them talked about getting drunk and ****ing the boyfriend of a Kappa Kappa Gamma, who was our "enemy sorority". It wasn't in our national songbook. It was written by a sister in my chapter and passed down through the years. My national couldn't take the heat for that.
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ONE chapter, ONE group of girls within that chapter, of course it couldn't be applied nationally. There's no pattern there as there is here with SAE.
 
tres borrachos said:
A national group promoting racism is a pretty serious accusation. If there's evidence that they've promoted racism, I'd like to see it. So far, nothing.
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Meh, you're looking for an excuse to say it's not a duck, even though it walks and quacks like one. The pattern of behavior by several chapters within the org are pretty clear. The national has never owned up to it. It would however be interesting to see if they have any but a token black membership.
 
clownboy said:
ONE chapter, ONE group of girls within that chapter, of course it couldn't be applied nationally. There's no pattern there as there is here with SAE.
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That doesn't matter. In order to accuse these people of promoting racism, you have to have evidence.

Head Quarters Staff - Sigma Alpha Epsilon

Where is it? No, a song that some kid in one of their chapters may have written is not evidence that the national organization promotes racism.
 
clownboy said:
Private venue lacking anyone to harass, threaten or humiliate. Fully protected by the 1st which trumps any policy set by the public university.
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Do you not think that off campus conduct created a hostile on campus environment?
 
clownboy said:
Meh, you're looking for an excuse to say it's not a duck, even though it walks and quacks like one. The pattern of behavior by several chapters within the org are pretty clear. The national has never owned up to it. It would however be interesting to see if they have any but a token black membership.
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Wow, okay, never mind. I'll back out of this discussion. I don't make accusations against a group of people without evidence.
 
tres borrachos said:
I sang songs while I was a Greek.
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Great, did you sing about lynching niggers too? This obsession you have with making every issue about your life really is getting cliché. Your catholic comparison failed, your appeal to your life experiences failed. If your sorority had a demonstrated history of various chapters engaging in slutty behavior, then I'd be consistent and tell you that you were a member of an organization that promotes being slutty in a way not visible to the public. However if your point is to show some similarity between what happened here and what is happening with SAE, I'd counter that this isn't about a single chapter is it? This issue involves chapters related only by name in various states doing the same thing. So again, what is the cause? People being racist when they get with the wrong people? Nonsense. This was acceptable behavior for SAE members across various states in presumably unrelated fraternities.
 
Hatuey said:
Great, did you sing about lynching niggers too? This obsession you have with making every issue about your life really is getting cliché. Your catholic comparison failed, your appeal to your life experiences failed. If your sorority had a demonstrated history of various chapters engaging in slutty behavior, then I'd be consistent and tell you that you were a member of an organization that promotes being slutty in a way not visible to the public. However if your point is to show some similarity between what happened here and what is happening with SAE, I'd counter that this isn't about a single chapter is it? This issue involves chapters related only by name in various states doing the same thing. So again, what is the cause? People being racist when they get with the wrong people? Nonsense. This was acceptable behavior for SAE members across various states in presumably unrelated fraternities.
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Let me know when you have proof that there is racism in the national organization, and evidence of which of these people is promoting racism.

Head Quarters Staff - Sigma Alpha Epsilon

The Catholic comparison wasn't stupid. Nor were any of the others I gave that you ignored. You can't use a commonality as evidence of a large scale issue. In order to tie a national group to the actions of individual members, and claim that the national group promotes the behavior of its individual members, you have to demonstrate the promotion of the behavior. You can't. But it doesn't stop you from making slanderous posts.
 
tres borrachos said:
The Catholic comparison wasn't stupid. Nor were any of the others I gave that you ignored. You can't use a commonality as evidence of a large scale issue. In order to tie a national group to the actions of individual members, and claim that the national group promotes the behavior of its individual members, you have to demonstrate the promotion of the behavior. You can't. But it doesn't stop you from making slanderous posts.
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These weren't actions by individual members. These activities were organized by the fraternities. The chanting was accepted behavior within the fraternity. The terrorizing of non-white students was accepted behavior in the other chapters. Again, you're ignoring the obvious so that you can preserve your own pristine memories of college life.
 
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Hatuey said:
These weren't actions by individual members. These activities were organized by the fraternities. The chanting was accepted behavior within the fraternity. The terrorizing of non-white students was accepted behavior in the other chapters. Again, you're ignoring the obvious so that you can preserve your own pristine memories of college life.
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One more time. The local fraternity in Oklahoma is not the national fraternity. There is no evidence that the SAE national fraternity organized that bus trip, and no evidence that they require their members to be racist, and no evidence that they teach their members to "terrorize" non-white students.

There is no "obvious" here other than you repetitively making the claim.
 
stonewall50 said:
How so? The university has every right to kick this frat out. I would too. Who wants a bunch of backwards morons running around giving a bad name to your school? Well a racist name. Frats do that anyway.
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I guarantee Univ officials knew about this stuff for years and did nothing about it, second as a taxpayer funded entity if they allow frats to be affiliated they need to allow all points of view without bias amongst them
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Thought police? The hell? So an organization severing ties with another organization that poorly represents it is being thought police? Do we all have to keep every social connection open until the end of time, no matter what?

If a church severed ties with a secular aid organization for that organization's stance on homosexuality, is the church being 'the thought police'?Ridiculous.
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Churches are not publically funded.
 
tres borrachos said:
One more time. The local fraternity in Oklahoma is not the national fraternity. There is no evidence that the SAE national fraternity organized that bus trip, and no evidence that they require their members to be racist, and no evidence that they teach their members to "terrorize" non-white students.

There is no "obvious" here other than you repetitively making the claim.
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There is a difference, I realise some have difficulty understanding nuance, between "requiring" and "accepting".
 
HenryChinaski said:
One can think whatever they want. It's probably best not to speak those thoughts so loudly when people are filming and your education is at stake. You get back from life what you put out there.
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Ones education should not be at stake for being a racist, racists pay taxes too to support the university system, besides if they'd been chanting slurs against white people the Univ would've done zero about it.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Churches are not publically funded.
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Really? Tax exemptions for church owned businesses is not "public funding", tax dollars for church-run schools is not "public funding", allowing churches to use public property without charge is not "public funding"?

I think we have different definitions of the words
 
tres borrachos said:
One more time. The local fraternity in Oklahoma is not the national fraternity. There is no evidence that the SAE national fraternity organized that bus trip, and no evidence that they require their members to be racist, and no evidence that they teach their members to "terrorize" non-white students.

There is no "obvious" here other than you repetitively making the claim.
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Nobody has claimed that the organization is sending memos down to the fraternities or any similar thing. Nobody has even argued that they're doing it internally or through any official channels. What is being argued is that the fraternity encourages it given then evidence available. That evidence being that various chapters across various states have engaged in the SAME activities. Every single time they've done so, they'd one it in a situation where other members are present, and where is clear that this behavior is acceptable when the cameras aren't on. Furthermore, the racism actually part of the group dynamic (as evidenced by the video). Again, this is happening across various states and various campuses that are otherwise unrelated EXCEPT for the fact that all of the fraternities are members of the same group. That evidence PROVES that it's part of the organization's culture. Why you ignore the obvious is beyond me.
 
Somerville said:
Really? Tax exemptions for church owned businesses is not "public funding", tax dollars for church-run schools is not "public funding", allowing churches to use public property without charge is not "public funding"?

I think we have different definitions of the words
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Tax breaks is not funding. Nor is reimbursement for services provided.

Churches (and all religious structures) are exempted from property tax and are given the exact same exemption any other non profit can get. They are not an arm of government and do not generally recieve money for nothing
 
Somerville said:
Really? Tax exemptions for church owned businesses is not "public funding", tax dollars for church-run schools is not "public funding", allowing churches to use public property without charge is not "public funding"?

I think we have different definitions of the words
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Who defines tax exemptions as "public funding"? I'd like to see that.

Every definition of public funding I've ever seen in my life doesn't include tax exemption. It always defines public funding as the government providing money to the general public.
 
Hatuey said:
Nobody has claimed that the organization is sending memos down to the fraternities or any similar thing. Nobody has even argued that they're doing it internally or through any official channels. What is being argued is that the fraternity encourages it given then evidence available. That evidence being that various chapters across various states have engaged in the SAME activities. Every single time they've done so, they'd one it in a situation where other members are present, and where is clear that this behavior is acceptable when the cameras aren't on. Furthermore, the racism actually part of the group dynamic (as evidenced by the video). Again, this is happening across various states and various campuses that are otherwise unrelated EXCEPT for the fact that all of the fraternities are members of the same group. That evidence PROVES that it's part of the organization's culture. Why you ignore the obvious is beyond me.
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So you're finally admitting that there is zero evidence that the national organization promotes racism.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
I guarantee Univ officials knew about this stuff for years and did nothing about it, second as a taxpayer funded entity if they allow frats to be affiliated they need to allow all points of view without bias amongst them
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Of course they knew. There's no ****ing way they didn't know this was going down. What's bull**** is that people want us to believe that this exists in a vacuum. It clearly doesn't as far as this organization is concerned.
 
Somerville said:
Really? Tax exemptions for church owned businesses is not "public funding", tax dollars for church-run schools is not "public funding", allowing churches to use public property without charge is not "public funding"?

I think we have different definitions of the words
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Tax exemptions, no, just the opposite in fact. Tax dollars for "church-run schools", no, it's not the church part being funded but the school part. And that last, yeah, that could be considered public funding.
 
Hatuey said:
Of course they knew. There's no ****ing way they didn't know this was going down. What's bull**** is that people want us to believe that this exists in a vacuum. It clearly doesn't as far as this organization is concerned.
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It's clear that the university knew that they had students who were racists?
 
tres borrachos said:
So you're finally admitting that there is zero evidence that the national organization promotes racism.
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Tres borrachos, you're being dishonest as you usually get when your points are refuted beyond the point where you make a decent effort. The organization is promoting racism and the evidence is the actions of its members across various states. You want some absurd document that only exists in your head. As if one was needed to promote racism.
 
Hatuey said:
Tres borrachos, you're being dishonest as you usually get when your points are refuted beyond the point where you make a decent effort. The organization is promoting racism and the evidence is the actions of its members across various states. You want some absurd document that only exists in your head. As if one was needed to promote racism.
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Oh, so you're back to your "the national organization promotes racism" slanderous posts again. Okay, carry on making accusations against large national groups with no evidence if it floats your boat.
 
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