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Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

Ah, this is how the President got around it:

UPDATE: The university president wrote that the students are being expelled for “your leadership role in leading a racist and exclusionary chant which has created a hostile educational environment for others.”

It appears that his legal counsel told him that there are First Amendment exceptions for racial and exclusionary speech (which legal experts including the ACLU say isn't the case). This will be an interesting case for sure.
 
Taylor said:
I don't know what they'd sue for, if not to be allowed to return to the U.
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Violation of their First Amendment rights, if the legal experts are correct. They are protected in these public universities. Money. Payback. Notoriety. Abuse of their Constitutional rights. People sue all the time for lesser things.
 
tres borrachos said:
I don't know that anyone said they would want to return to the University. The Duke Lacrosse players sued Duke, and it wasn't because they wanted to return there.
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There may be some there who are in their 3rd or 4th year, and may have residency/transfer limitations.
Transfer credit can be subjective, I.E. at the discretion of the admission officer.
 
TurtleDude said:
I wonder what the motivation was of the person who surreptitiously recorded this idiocy and made it public
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I can't see why it matters what their precise motivation was - the result, presumably intended, was outing a proudly racist fraternity.

Also, a fraternity full of idiots who chanted this nonsense on a bus filled with lots of non-members as witnesses, nearly all of them with recording devices. That's the only thing shocking about the incident - the racism was widespread and casual enough that they felt comfortable expressing it in the company of (basically) strangers.
 
JasperL said:
I can't see why it matters what their precise motivation was - the result, presumably intended, was outing a proudly racist fraternity.

Also, a fraternity full of idiots who chanted this nonsense on a bus filled with lots of non-members as witnesses, nearly all of them with recording devices. That's the only thing shocking about the incident - the racism was widespread and casual enough that they felt comfortable expressing it in the company of (basically) strangers.
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you know for a fact that the bus had people other than the frat members>
 
JasperL said:
I can't see why it matters what their precise motivation was - the result, presumably intended, was outing a proudly racist fraternity.

Also, a fraternity full of idiots who chanted this nonsense on a bus filled with lots of non-members as witnesses, nearly all of them with recording devices. That's the only thing shocking about the incident - the racism was widespread and casual enough that they felt comfortable expressing it in the company of (basically) strangers.
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You know who else was on that bus? The university is trying to find out who took the video and who uploaded it to YouTube. Who were all of the non-members with recording devices, and how do you know they were all strangers?
 
tres borrachos said:
Violation of their First Amendment rights, if the legal experts are correct. They are protected in these public universities. Money. Payback. Notoriety. Abuse of their Constitutional rights. People sue all the time for lesser things.
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I suppose they could sue to be reimbursed for their tuition and related fees, but it hardly seems worth it.
 
tres borrachos said:
You know who else was on that bus? The university is trying to find out who took the video and who uploaded it to YouTube. Who were all of the non-members with recording devices, and how do you know they were all strangers?
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Reportedly, some of those singing were women from the tri-delta sorority - don't know why they've escaped scrutiny thus far.

EDIT: Never mind, it looks like those earlier reports did not hold up under scrutiny.
 
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Taylor said:
I suppose they could sue to be reimbursed for their tuition and related fees, but it hardly seems worth it.
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I'm sure they could, but that doesn't have anything to do with what I posted.

If they do have First Amendment rights, and those rights were violated, they have a reason to sue. I don't believe in First Amendment rights violations. Another poster claimed earlier that someone said that the University removing SAE's charter from the campus was a First Amendment violation. I didn't see anyone say that and of course when I asked the poster to clarify it, he didn't. But that wouldn't be a Constitutional violation because the students don't have a right to a fraternity charter. This to me does appear to be a violation. And I believe that this opens the door to universities prying into their students' private lives and internet lives, and expelling them for "leadership issues" or whatever they're using here.

I may not like what you say, but I will always defend your right to say it. That's what the First Amendment is about and should be about.
 
Hmmm....maybe I'm the only poster on here who believes in the First Amendment. :shrug:
 
In a public university, punishing individual students for their speech should not be permitted.
 
tres borrachos said:
I'm sure they could, but that doesn't have anything to do with what I posted.

If they do have First Amendment rights, and those rights were violated, they have a reason to sue. I don't believe in First Amendment rights violations. Another poster claimed earlier that someone said that the University removing SAE's charter from the campus was a First Amendment violation. I didn't see anyone say that and of course when I asked the poster to clarify it, he didn't. But that wouldn't be a Constitutional violation because the students don't have a right to a fraternity charter. This to me does appear to be a violation. And I believe that this opens the door to universities prying into their students' private lives and internet lives, and expelling them for "leadership issues" or whatever they're using here.

I may not like what you say, but I will always defend your right to say it. That's what the First Amendment is about and should be about.
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Sure it does... If they were to sue the U for a first amendment violation, they would be asking the court for some sort of action in response to a wrongful expulsion - to be allowed to return to the University or to be reimbursed for time/money lost due to the expulsion. You said earlier that one of the reasons they might sue is money - well that's all the money that they'd be entitled to.

The university did not remove the fraternity charter, the SAE organization basically disowned them, and that's what enabled the University to kick them out. Had SAE not taken that action, these guys would likely still be living in their frat house.
 
TurtleDude said:
you know for a fact that the bus had people other than the frat members>
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There was a woman clearly pictured in the video. Right side, aisle seat, about one row up from whoever took the video. And it's been reported this was on "Date Night." Freeze frame picture of woman, and further commentary here.
 
JasperL said:
There was a woman clearly pictured in the video. Right side, aisle seat, about one row up from whoever took the video. And it's been reported this was on "Date Night." Freeze frame picture of woman, and further commentary here.
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well if they are spewing crap like that to non members, screw em
 
JasperL said:
There was a woman clearly pictured in the video. Right side, aisle seat, about one row up from whoever took the video. And it's been reported this was on "Date Night." Freeze frame picture of woman, and further commentary here.
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And you know she was a stranger how exactly?
 
Taylor said:
Sure it does... If they were to sue the U for a first amendment violation, they would be asking the court for some sort of action in response to a wrongful expulsion - to be allowed to return to the University or to be reimbursed for time/money lost due to the expulsion. You said earlier that one of the reasons they might sue is money - well that's all the money that they'd be entitled to.

The university did not remove the fraternity charter, the SAE organization basically disowned them, and that's what enabled the University to kick them out. Had SAE not taken that action, these guys would likely still be living in their frat house.
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You keep talking about returning to the University. Do you know they want to return? I don't. I'm a First Amendment fan, and okay, you don't see what I do. To you First Amendment violations don't seem to be a big deal. They are to me - from a non-political standpoint.

The university can ban any Greek from its campus. And SAE didn't "basically disown" them, they removed their charter. National Greeks get charters removed. Universities order local chapters of Greeks off campus. This isn't an isolated instance. And if the school owned the house, the school can remove the fraternity from the house at any time.
 
tres borrachos said:
You know who else was on that bus? The university is trying to find out who took the video and who uploaded it to YouTube. Who were all of the non-members with recording devices, and how do you know they were all strangers?
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Sometimes I think you just like to argue. This was a group of guys in formal wear on their way to a party on a chartered bus with THEIR DATES. There is a woman clearly pictured in the video. It even looks like she's got out her cell phone aka video recording device. She's not a fraternity member. I see no reason to assume they're all long time girlfriends and known by the fraternity to be sympathetic to blatant and casual racism. Obviously someone on the bus was NOT comfortable with it - hence the release of the video - which is also prima facie evidence of the idiocy of the brothers who managed to get their charter revoked and kicked out of their house, two of them expelled so far, over singing a racist chant with devices recording it all for posterity.

So, racists AND idiots seems to be a fairly obvious description of all those singing that chant. Although to be fair, "racist idiot" is redundant, so if that's your point, I agree.
 
This crap wasn't racist, it was bigoted and they should suffer the consequences.
 
TurtleDude said:
well if they are spewing crap like that to non members, screw em
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Well, I'd say screw em whether it was to members or non-members, but it's especially stupid to fly your racist flag on a bus full of fraternity members and their dates.
 
JasperL said:
Well, I'd say screw em whether it was to members or non-members, but it's especially stupid to fly your racist flag on a bus full of fraternity members and their dates.
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I am not a big fan of sneaky little rats who play gotcha games myself. Like the butt hurt girlie man who surreptitiously recorded Romney while working as a caterer. But i agree with you as to the stupidity here
 
JasperL said:
Sometimes I think you just like to argue. This was a group of guys in formal wear on their way to a party on a chartered bus with THEIR DATES. There is a woman clearly pictured in the video. It even looks like she's got out her cell phone aka video recording device. She's not a fraternity member. I see no reason to assume they're all long time girlfriends and known by the fraternity to be sympathetic to blatant and casual racism. Obviously someone on the bus was NOT comfortable with it - hence the release of the video - which is also prima facie evidence of the idiocy of the brothers who managed to get their charter revoked and kicked out of their house, two of them expelled so far, over singing a racist chant with devices recording it all for posterity.

So, racists AND idiots seems to be a fairly obvious description of all those singing that chant. Although to be fair, "racist idiot" is redundant, so if that's your point, I agree.
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And their dates aren't strangers, which is what you claimed.

Strangers are people on a public bus. This wasn't a public bus.
 
tres borrachos said:
And you know she was a stranger how exactly?
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I was asked this: "you know for a fact that the bus had people other than the frat members"

The answer was yes, and the evidence was there was at least one woman pictured in the video, and I provided a link showing that and discussing it. I'm assuming of course that the FRATERNITY doesn't admit women as members which is a very safe assumption.

I also said the dates were "(basically) strangers." If you want to take issue with that, I'll amend it to say, "non-members of the fraternity."
 
JasperL said:
I was asked this: "you know for a fact that the bus had people other than the frat members"

The answer was yes, and the evidence was there was at least one woman pictured in the video, and I provided a link showing that and discussing it. I'm assuming of course that the FRATERNITY doesn't admit women as members which is a very safe assumption.

I also said the dates were "(basically) strangers." If you want to take issue with that, I'll amend it to say, "non-members of the fraternity."
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I didn't ask you that question. I didn't post about that question. You said the other people on the bus were "(basically) strangers". They weren't. They were their dates. That's what I was posting about to you.
 
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