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Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

Jetboogieman said:
"I don't wanna bake a cake for them faggots, that violates my freedom of association as a private business".

Praised by right wing.

Private university dissociates itself from private racist fraternity

"VIOLATION OF FREE SPEECH" says right wing.
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Where is the "right wing" saying that the university removing their charter from campus is a violation of free speech? I haven't seen that.
 
Hatuey said:
UO is a public school. However, even as a public institution, they can set ethical guidelines for their students. They're no different than a federal employer who says you can't wear KKK robes instead of your work uniform.
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Good to know.

tres borrachos said:
Where is the "right wing" saying that the university removing their charter from campus is a violation of free speech? I haven't seen that.
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Have you read the thread?
 
tres borrachos said:
I'm all for SAE removing their charter. National organizations have been removing the charters of local chapters of fraternities and sororities for years for many reasons.

When you say or imply(?) that racism is a part of this fraternity, which fraternity are you talking about...the national SAE organiztion, or the University of Oklahoma chapter?
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The national SAE. This isn't the first such incident for the organization. When you have that many groups across that wide a gap of time, and that many states engaging in the same kind of activities, it can only be assumed that the organization itself promotes racism in some way. If not, then that only leaves the possibility that it's a problem within the culture in those states. Either case is possible, but I lean towards the SAE promoting it in some way not visible to the public until these events take place.
 
Hatuey said:
The national SAE. This isn't the first such incident for the organization. When you have that many groups across that wide a gap of time, and that many states engaging in the same kind of activities, it can only be assumed that the organization itself promotes racism in some way. If not, then that only leaves the possibility that it's a problem within the culture in those states. Either case is possible, but I lean towards the SAE promoting it in some way not visible to the public until these events take place.
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I saw 4 instances over a 33 year period in your post, and one of them was about Jewish students (Jewish isn't a race). 3 instances over 33 years leads you to believe that SAE national is promoting racism? SAE has almost 300 active chapters.
 
tres borrachos said:
I saw 4 instances over a 33 year period in your post,
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3 of those instances which happened in the last 2 years alone. Downplaying it doesn't change that.

and one of them was about Jewish students (Jewish isn't a race).
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US courts disagree with you.

3 instances over 33 years leads you to believe that SAE national is promoting racism? SAE has almost 300 active chapters.
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Nope, what leads me to believe it is the nonchalance of the chanting. As if they've done it before. It was something they'd learned. In other words, the members of the fraternity knew the chant. With that said, this wasn't something new or for that matter something strange for the fraternity given their history in other states. All of that evidence points to it being a problem with the organization itself.
 
Hatuey said:
3 of those instances which happened in the last 2 years alone. Downplaying it doesn't change that.



US courts disagree with you.



Nope, what leads me to believe it is the nonchalance of the chanting. As if they've done it before. It was something they'd learned. In other words, the members of the fraternity knew the chant. With that said, this wasn't something new or for that matter something strange for the fraternity given their history in other states. All of that evidence points to it being a problem with the organization itself.
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Jewish is a race?

So the fact is that 3 local chapters in the last 2 years got caught on video doing/saying something stupid. Now, how does that square with your statement that the national fraternity promotes racism? What are they doing to promote racism, how are they doing it, and how is it that the over 300,000 SAEs have all kept this private and never told anyone about it?

And you mustn't have ever been a member of a fraternity. The national reps don't come out to campuses (especially almost 300 of them) to teach the brothers how to sign racist songs on buses. Your evidence that the song they sang was provided to them by the national organization is.....what?
 
tres borrachos said:
And you mustn't have ever been a member of a fraternity.
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I suspect you have hit upon something here. Being in the Greek system is something that is extremely important to a very small number of people and seems like one of the absolute dumbest things in existence to other people. I went to college for my Bachelors from the fall of 67 until I graduated in 71. In those days, the Greek system was so out of favor and so openly mocked and derided that it withered and faded in many public colleges and only managed to hang on in private schools where the stink of privilege and entitlement unwavered.

The biggest movie from the era of the Seventies about the Greek system was ANIMAL HOUSE which openly ridiculed the entire process. It made the people who advocated frat life look beyond stupid and just plain out of touch with the changes in college life that the Sixties and Seventies brought.

So I suspect - besides race - ones response to this story may hinge largely on their opinion of the frat system itself.
 
tres borrachos said:
Jewish is a race?
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According to US Courts, hate crime legislation, historians etc. Yes.

So the fact is that 3 local chapters in the last 2 years got caught on video doing/saying something stupid.
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Yes, it's what happens in the age of mass media. Nothing escapes the eyes of a camera. My belief is that we'll see more of cases as social media becomes a bigger part of everyday life. It's already happening. This is just the iceberg and it's already showing its ugly side across various states.

Now, how does that square with your statement that the national fraternity promotes racism?
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3 different universities in 3 different states and all they have in common is the fraternity. Doesn't that set off ANY bells for you? It does for me.

What are they doing to promote racism, how are they doing it, and how is it that the over 300,000 SAEs have all kept this private and never told anyone about it?
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Don't know, I'm not a sociologist. I provided the possibility that it was due to the culture within the organization, and the alternative that it was due to the local culture. Neither makes the organization look particularly good. In the first possibility, it's an internal problem fed by the larger outside culture. In the second possibility, it's the larger outside culture using the motif of fraternities to legitimize their views within a wider academic setting.

And you mustn't have ever been a member of a fraternity. The national reps don't come out to campuses (especially almost 300 of them) to teach the brothers how to sign racist songs on buses.
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I never said that. That's not the only way information gets passed down. See: oral tradition
 
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haymarket said:
I suspect you have hit upon something here. Being in the Greek system is something that is extremely important to a very small number of people and seems like one of the absolute dumbest things in existence to other people. I went to college for my Bachelors from the fall of 67 until I graduated in 71. In those days, the Greek system was so out of favor and so openly mocked and derided that it withered and faded in many public colleges and only managed to hang on in private schools where the stink of privilege and entitlement unwavered.

The biggest movie from the era of the Seventies about the Greek system was ANIMAL HOUSE which openly ridiculed the entire process.

So I suspect - besides race - ones response to this story may hinge largely on their opinion of the frat system itself.
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Animal House came out in 1978, two years before I entered college. I have to admit, when I saw it I was like WTF, is all of that true? It was, in a lot of ways. I was in the Greek system at my college - Greeks were huge. The only people who didn't pledge were either nerdy, odd, or hockey players (they weren't allowed to). I went to a private university.

There are still a lot of Greeks in the public universities. I think most of the SAE chapters are in public universities.

There is a lot of good in frats & sororities. There is a lot of bad too, but college aged students can be incredibly stupid, and they don't need to be a member of a Greek house to do it.
 
Hatuey said:
According to US Courts, hate crime legislation, historians etc. Yes.



Yes, it's what happens in the age of mass media. Nothing escapes the eyes of a camera. My belief is that we'll see more of cases as social media becomes a bigger part of everyday life. It's already happening. This is just the iceberg and it's already showing its ugly side across various states.



3 different universities in 3 different states and all they have in common is the fraternity. Doesn't that set off ANY bells for you? It does for me.



Don't know, I'm not a sociologist. I provided the possibility that it was due to the university, and the alternative that it was due to the local culture. Neither makes the organization look good.



I never said that. That's not the only way information gets passed down. See: oral tradition
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You are accusing SAE national of promoting racism. You make an accusation like that, you need to back it up, because that is a very serious charge. And if you were a member of a national Greek organization, please tell me which one, and what specific "oral traditions" they passed down that infiltrated every single chapter, and how they did it. I was a Greek and for about 20 years was a local representative helping my sorority set up local chapters. I was also President of the Panhellenic Society of my college, as well as on the board of the Greek council at my school. I never in my time associated with Greeks was aware of any national Greek that promoted racism nor encouraged new members to learn racist songs. I would like to see your proof that SAE did this.
 
tres borrachos said:
Animal House came out in 1978, two years before I entered college. I have to admit, when I saw it I was like WTF, is all of that true? It was, in a lot of ways. I was in the Greek system at my college - Greeks were huge. The only people who didn't pledge were either nerdy, odd, or hockey players (they weren't allowed to). I went to a private university.
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yup - that was what I said - on many public university campuses, it was openly mocked and people who favored it were considered the ones out of touch with the times.

If you entered college in the decade of the 80's, the culture changed and the greek system began to make a return later in the decade.
 
haymarket said:
yup - that was what I said - on many public university campuses, it was openly mocked and people who favored it were considered the ones out of touch with the times.

If you entered college in the decade of the 80's, the culture changed and the greek system began to make a return later in the decade.
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Greeks were big in the 1980s all over the country. Today they're still pretty big, just not as they were when I was in it.

I got a lot out of being Greek. I actually got my very first job because I listed my Greek on my application and wore my pin to my interview. The hiring person in HR was also a member although she came from a completely different college.
 
tres borrachos said:
You are accusing SAE national of promoting racism.
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The fact that various SAE chapters engage in the same activity supports such an argument. The only other alternative is that the region itself promotes it. However that is unlikely as we're talking about schools separated by 100s of miles.

You make an accusation like that, you need to back it up, because that is a very serious charge. And if you were a member of a national Greek organization, please tell me which one, and what specific "oral traditions" they passed down that infiltrated every single chapter, and how they did it. I was a Greek and for about 20 years was a local representative helping my sorority set up local chapters. I was also President of the Panhellenic Society of my college, as well as on the board of the Greek council at my school. I never in my time associated with Greeks was aware of any national Greek that promoted racism nor encouraged new members to learn racist songs. I would like to see your proof that SAE did this.
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Nobody cares what you were. What was stated is that oral traditions are ways to pass down songs without necessarily writing it down on any official documents. That's a pretty well known fact. I argue that the same happened here. We have students who chant songs they knew well. Who did they learn them from? Other students. That gives validity to the claim that it's part of the culture. This isn't an event which starts with a generation in the 21st century and in a vacuum; Especially if the organization has supposedly opposed it. It's passed down from one group of students to another. It's part of the SAE culture. Don't like it? Tough nut.
 
Hatuey said:
The fact that various SAE chapters engage in the same activity supports such an argument. The only other alternative is that the region itself promotes it. However that is unlikely as we're talking about schools separated by 100s of miles.



Nobody cares what you were. What was stated is that oral traditions are ways to pass down songs without necessarily writing it down on any official documents. That's a pretty well known fact. I argue that the same happened here. We have students who chant songs they knew well. Who did they learn them from? Other students. That gives validity to the claim that it's part of the culture. This isn't an event which starts with a generation in the 21st century and in a vacuum; Especially if the organization has historically opposed it. It's passed down from one group of students to another.
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4 chapters in 33 years. There are almost 300 active chapters, and over 300,000 living brothers of SAE.

You just accused a very large national fraternal organization of promoting racism. You have been around long enough to know that when you accuse a group of over 300,000 people of doing something, you need to back it up. You haven't. So if you are someone who makes false and very serious accusations against people, that's fine by me. It's your right. Most people would see what you're doing as being terribly wrong.

Carry on and make those slanderous statements.
 
tres borrachos said:
4 chapters in 33 years.
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3 of these in the last 2 years alone. Ignoring that little fact is pretty dishonest.

You just accused a very large national fraternal organization of promoting racism.
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I did indeed based on the information available. You don't seem to like it because you're a greek yourself. That is irrelevant. As I stated earlier, we'll see more of these events soon enough. Even in the 1990s it was easy to be racist and not have it in media. In the age of cellphones, 3 incidents have been caught within 2 years. The evidence speaks for itself. :shrug: Now, it remains to be determined whether it's a problem with the fraternity itself, or the Midwest/Southern region where they're all located.
 
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WCH said:
More like the *vengeance of political correctness. Since when is there punishment for being a racist? When will the Black fraternity with their *shooting crackers song be punished. [assuming they have one]
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Don't you wish this crap would stop altogether? Just because blacks make racist and vile remarks doesn't mean the white boys should get away with it. This is not the first or the last racial rant, its cheap, its vulgar, and it makes me wonder about parenting.
Why must anyone carry this negativity in their hearts? Cracker, nigger, whore, wetback,dick, queer, bitch....why?
Stop it, teach your kids to be respectful and also earn respect.
 
Hatuey said:
3 of these in the last 2 years alone. Ignoring that little fact is pretty dishonest.



I did indeed based on the information available. You don't seem to like it because you're a greek yourself. That is irrelevant. As I stated earlier, we'll see more of these events soon enough. Even in the 1990s it was easy to be racist and not have it in media. In the age of cellphones, 3 incidents have been caught within 2 years. The evidence speaks for itself. :shrug:
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I haven't seen anyone, anywhere accuse their national of promoting racism - until you did it.

Do you always make accusations against groups of over 300,000 people based on the actions of less than 2 dozen in 33 years?
 
tres borrachos said:
I haven't seen anyone, anywhere accuse their national of promoting racism - until you did it.
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Most people are too focused on punishment for these kids. They're just doing what they've been taught to do. By whom? We don't know yet. However, judging by the unrehearsed chanting, it's probably somebody within the organization. :shrug:

Do you always make accusations against groups of over 300,000 people based on the actions of less than 2 dozen in 33 years?
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Hey 3 borrachos, when did the majority of these events take place? I can wait for you to be honest and answer. :)
 
reprehensible, the school can boot the fraternity, but not sure a public school like this can or should be able to expell these scumbags. 1st amendment and all that.


also came across this and found it a bit ironic..

Oklahoma's Black Greek Organizations 'Extremely Disturbed' By Racist Frat Video


What did the Oaklahoma's white greek organizations say? anyone have the link?


fraternities are dumb anyway.
 
Hatuey said:
Most people are too focused on punishment for these kids. They're just doing what they've been taught to do. By whom? We don't know yet. However, judging by the unrehearsed chanting, it's probably somebody within the organization. :shrug:



Hey 3 borrachos, when did the majority of these events take place? I can wait for you to be honest and answer. :)
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The majority took place in the last few years. So once again, I will ask you for your proof that their national fraternity promotes racism. How do they do it, what are they doing, how is it that all 300,000 living members know about it and have protected the fraternity?
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
reprehensible, the school can boot the fraternity, but not sure a public school like this can or should be able to expell these scumbags. 1st amendment and all that.


also came across this and found it a bit ironic..

Oklahoma's Black Greek Organizations 'Extremely Disturbed' By Racist Frat Video


What did the Oaklahoma's white greek organizations say? anyone have the link?


fraternities are dumb anyway.
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According to Wapo and a few other publications, they can't expel them from school.

The fraternity being yanked is probably all that can happen to them at this point.
 
tres borrachos said:
The majority took place in the last few years.
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Specifically the last 2 years. Now, can you tell us a major technological difference between 1982 and 2013?

So once again, I will ask you for your proof that their national fraternity promotes racism.
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The evidence is in the actions of its members. If you don't like that they present that image across various states, various schools, and various regions of the US, you're welcome to challenge it. However, that's what they've unquestionably presented in the age where their actions can be recorded by anyone.

how is it that all 300,000 living members know about it and have protected the fraternity?
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Facts and Figures - Sigma Alpha Epsilon

219 total chapters + 20 colonies = 239 total groups
Approximately 15,000 undergraduate/collegiate members
Average chapter size is 59 men.
Sigma Alpha Epsilon has initiated more than 325,000 men since our founding in 1856.
More than 26,000 collegiate brothers have graduated from our annual John O. Moseley Leadership School.
There are approximately 200,000 living alumni in the Fraternity.
The average colony size is 33 men
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With your obvious mistake aside, there is no secret to keep. The organization has had other incidents which didn't really make the news:

Oklahoma frat’s racist chant highlights the exclusionary roots of Greek life - The Washington Post

This isn’t the first time this fraternity has been subjected to such scrutiny over overtly racist acts. In 1992, Texas A&M University fined its chapter $1,000 after it threw a “jungle party” attended by frat brothers in blackface. Then in 2002, Syracuse University suspended its chapter after one of its members went to a bar in blackface. As recently as 2013, the fraternity got suspended following allegations it had photographed African American students while pledges recited rap lyrics laced with racial slurs.
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So in short, there is no secret. Its well established that this fraternity's chapters do these things. However, let's say there was some secret: Why would it be relevant to say that a SAE chapter in the 1930s Alabama attacked black people? It wouldn't even make the front page. Why would it make the news if a fraternity chanted racist slurs in 1950s South Carolina? It wouldn't. The closer we get to iphones and cameras in every cellphone, the more these events show up. Coincidence? Nonsense.
 
Hatuey said:
Specifically the last 2 years. Now, can you tell us a major technological difference between 1982 and 2013?



The evidence is in the actions of its members. If you don't like that they present that image across various states, various schools, and various regions of the US, you're welcome to challenge it. However, that's what they've unquestionably presented in the age where their actions can be recorded by anyone.



Facts and Figures - Sigma Alpha Epsilon



With your obvious mistake aside, there is no secret to keep. The organization has had other incidents which didn't really make the news:

Oklahoma frat’s racist chant highlights the exclusionary roots of Greek life - The Washington Post



So in short, there is no secret. Its well established that this fraternity's chapters do these things. However, let's say there was some secret: Why would it be relevant to say that a SAE chapter in the 1930s Alabama attacked black people? It wouldn't even make the front page. Why would it make the news if a fraternity chanted racist slurs in 1950s South Carolina? It wouldn't. The closer we get to iphones and cameras in every cellphone, the more these events show up. Coincidence? Nonsense.
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When you find those missing cell phone videos of SAE members singing racist songs, post them. Along with your evidence of how the national SAE organization is promoting, and specifically how they're doing it.
 
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