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Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

Hatuey said:
The overwhelming majority of which have taken place in the last few years. Then again, let's be realistic, it's not as if such chants would have made front page news in any newspaper before the 1970s.
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the "vast majority" being 3 incidents :lol:

wel, i know as well as anyone that you won't be swayed .. so.. whatever... keep believing it's a racist fraternity... it matters not.
 
tres borrachos said:
No, Hatuey, you did not. Some yahoos being racist in their local chapter or even 5 or 10 or 27 other chapters is not evidence that SAE the national fraternity promotes racism.
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Of course it is. It shows a consistent pattern amongst the same group of people. Please show me any other fraternity that has multiple instances of the SAME incident happening across 5-6 states and different chapters? You can't. You want to ignore the obvious, that's your problem.

As for your catholic comparison, it is absurd. These situations have occurred when members of the same organization join together. It's not accidental that they happen to be SAE. They are SAE engaging in an activity that other members have acknowledged happened when they were around 10 years ago. Get serious.
 
Thrilla said:
the "vast majority" being 3 incidents :lol:
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Reading through the thread would help your contribution to this thread seem less asinine.
 
Hatuey said:
Of course it is. It shows a consistent pattern amongst the same group of people. Please show me any other fraternity that has multiple instances of the SAME incident happening across 5-6 states and different chapters? You can't. You want to ignore the obvious, that's your problem.

As for your catholic comparison, it is absurd. These situations have occurred when members of the same organization join together. It's not accidental that they happen to be SAE. They are SAE engaging in an activity that other members have acknowledged happened when they were around 10 years ago. Get serious.
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In other words, you're ignoring the comparisons because you know they were right.
 
tres borrachos said:
I'm all for SAE removing their charter. National organizations have been removing the charters of local chapters of fraternities and sororities for years for many reasons.

When you say or imply(?) that racism is a part of this fraternity, which fraternity are you talking about...the national SAE organiztion, or the University of Oklahoma chapter?
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I doubt it was national. Probably just that chapter. What gets me the most is you know damn well that they didn't just make that song up right there on the fly. It had to be around for some time. That's the freaky thing for me.
 
Lovebug said:
Don't you wish this crap would stop altogether? Just because blacks make racist and vile remarks doesn't mean the white boys should get away with it. This is not the first or the last racial rant, its cheap, its vulgar, and it makes me wonder about parenting.
Why must anyone carry this negativity in their hearts? Cracker, nigger, whore, wetback,dick, queer, bitch....why?
Stop it, teach your kids to be respectful and also earn respect.
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It's a growing process. [generally] The culture we have today doesn't help the situation. White kids listening to vulgar Rap music, then trying to emulate them.
 
tres borrachos said:
In other words, you're ignoring the comparisons because you know they were right.
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No, I'm acknowledging that you made it, and dismissing it because it is absurd. The fact that people are SAE is not an coincidental component as with your catholic comparison. It's what ties them all of the situations together. The people chanting, and engaging in the various activities were doing it as part of their group dynamic. They threw racist parties in their official SAE capacity, they chanted racist rants during a fraternity event. It's not like they just so happened to be a bunch of drunk kids on a bus with nothing to do but waste time. These were unrelated circumstances across various states and decades where everyone involved was acting within acceptable paradigms. They are unrelated in that they weren't organized by the same people. So how is it possible that 7-8 different chapters in as many universities all independently thought about engaging in racist activities? That's a hell of a ****ing PR nightmare at best and proof of a culture within the organization at worst. When it was made public, everybody said they were sorry. If they hadn't been caught, they would have kept on doing it. That's why it's obvious that it's an organizational thing.
 
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poweRob said:
I doubt it was national. Probably just that chapter. What gets me the most is you know damn well that they didn't just make that song up right there on the fly. It had to be around for some time. That's the freaky thing for me.
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Agreed. It wasn't national. And the song has probably been passed down through the years by the brothers.
 
Hatuey said:
14 examples of different fraternities and sororities doing the same thing. Not a consistent pattern throughout the years. :shrug:
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Agreed, the fraternity has a demonstrated record of this sort of behavior nationally. It should have never been allowed on the campus to begin with.
 
tres borrachos said:
One more time, since you don't seem to understand. When you accuse a national organization of "promoting racism", you are expected to back it up. Now, when you have evidence that SAE as a national organization "promotes racism", as you claim they do, post it.
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The video from the OP details some of this.
 
clownboy said:
Agreed, the fraternity has a demonstrated record of this sort of behavior nationally. It should have never been allowed on the campus to begin with.
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You're agreeing with me? What's the catch?
 
Hatuey said:
You're agreeing with me? What's the catch?
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None, but we can make one up if you really need there to be. I figure even the blind squirrel gets some of the nuts. :mrgreen:
 
tres borrachos said:
I can't watch videos on this computer. What in the video shows that the SAE national organization promotes racism?
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Several chapters around the country have been charged with racism and racist whatever over the years. This song, at least it's content, isn't unique to this chapter alone.
 
clownboy said:
Several chapters around the country have been charged with racism and racist whatever over the years. This song, at least it's content, isn't unique to this chapter alone.
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That isn't what I asked. I asked what evidence there is that the national organization "promotes racism".
 
tres borrachos said:
That isn't what I asked. I asked what evidence there is that the national organization "promotes racism".
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That's always going to be circumstantial. But here we have a pattern with this one fraternity that transcends individual chapters.

Here's some we're heard about:

Discriminatory incidents[edit]

In 1982 SAE members at the University of Cincinnati were suspended for a racially demeaning party corresponding with Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday.[21] In 2013 SAE members at Washington University in St. Louis were suspended for singing racial slurs to African American Students.[22] In 2014, SAE members at Clemson University were suspended for throwing a racially charged, "Cripmas" party.[23] In 2014, SAE members at the University of Arizona were suspended for attacking Jewish students.[24]

The national organization of Sigma Alpha Epsilon closed the University of Oklahoma chapter in March, 2015 after a video surfaced showing members chanting a song which featured the racial slur, "nigger," and made reference to lynching. The chant, set to the popular children's song, "If You're Happy and You Know It", declares, "There will never be a nigger in SAE. You can hang him from a tree, but he can never sign with me."[25] Sigma Alpha Epsilon suspended the charter of the involved chapter and suspended its members on March 8, 2015. The University of Oklahoma president, David Boren, closed the fraternity chapter,[26] giving members two days to vacate the fraternity's campus dwellings.[27] On March 10, two students identified in the video were expelled from the university.[28]

In 2014, the chapter at Clemson University hosted a "Cripmas" party in reference to Southern California based African-American crips gang. The chapter "suspended all activity indefinately" according to the SAE national office.[29
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_Alpha_Epsilon#Discriminatory_incidents
 
clownboy said:
None, but we can make one up if you really need there to be. I figure even the blind squirrel gets some of the nuts. :mrgreen:
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It's ****ing patently obvious. They're singing a ****ing song as if they've known it all their damn lives. Then you have similar racist events where chapters in entirely different states promote the same views. Then you have members of the same organization attacking and terrorizing other students; once again across various states and in different schools.

A rational person has two options when all of this information is given: They either question the organization itself or they can question the region these people live in.

I honestly don't want to get into whether this is a case of race in the South because it also involves Midwestern universities where race dynamics aren't always so clear. That leaves a single option, the fact that these events are tied by well, SAE members acting within a group dynamic. So just what views is SAE promoting that not one but various chapters in various states, across various decades end up conducting the same activities?

I think what's been most laughable about this entire discussion is that people are asking for a detailed history of SAE's racist history. As if racist chanting at a university would have made the news 50 years ago. What we have is SAE's recent history and that is one that shows a clear pattern of racism within the organization. As I said, the relationship between recording technology and these incidents is linear. The more technology available to record it, the more incidents we see.
 
clownboy said:
That's always going to be circumstantial. But here we have a pattern with this one fraternity that transcends individual chapters.
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That isn't evidence that the national fraternity promotes racism.

pro·mote


/prəˈmōt/


verb

verb: promote; 3rd person present: promotes; past tense: promoted; past participle: promoted; gerund or present participle: promoting



1. further the progress of (something, especially a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage.
 
I support the right of any American to hate the living guts of any other person, because of his race, his religion, the way he walks, the music he likes, or any other damned reason imaginable, and to stand on the street corner and proclaim his hatred to the world.

And I am always glad to see self-styled "liberals" betray just how intolerant and undemocratic they really are by applauding the suppression of speech in the name of political correctness. It is not the least surprising that doctrine was originally cooked up by communists for the express purpose of silencing people whose views they disliked.
 
For those that say you can't expel a student due to freedom of speech, maybe you can read the OU code of conduct, which does not allow unwelcome conduct (chanting could be said as conduct) that is threatening and humiliating, which I personally would find a group of people chanting what these kids did as both of those things.



http://www.ou.edu/content/dam/studentlife/documents/AllCampusStudentCode.pdf

III. Student Rights
Students of the University of Oklahoma are guaranteed certain rights by the Constitutions of the United
States and the State of Oklahoma and the University of Oklahoma Student Association. Those
documents are controlling and any questions of student rights must be decided on the language
contained in those documents. Among other rights, the following apply:
1. The student has the right to form, join and participate in any student organization or group without
regard to race, color, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, genetic information, age (40 or older),
religion, disability, political beliefs or status as a veteran. Institutional Equity Office and
Sexual Misconduct
2. The student has the right to pursue his/her education as long as he/she meets the University’s
applicable academic standards and observes applicable laws and policies.

VI. Student Responsibilities

These definitions include, but are not limited to, the following:
1. Abusive conduct: Unwelcome conduct that is sufficiently severe and pervasive that it alters the
conditions of education or employment and creates an environment that a reasonable person would
find intimidating, harassing or humiliating. These circumstances could include the frequency of the
conduct, its severity, and whether it is threatening or humiliating. This includes physically abusing
a person or holding a person against his or her will. Simple teasing, offhanded comments and
isolated incidents (unless extremely serious) will not amount to abusive conduct.
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I hardly find chanting about hanging a group of people to be offhanded or simple teasing myself.



Also if anyone is interested I found this on their non discrimination policy:
http://www.ou.edu/content/eoo/polic...NONDISCRIMINATION POLICY updated 12-21-12.pdf
 
tres borrachos said:
That isn't evidence that the national fraternity promotes racism.

pro·mote


/prəˈmōt/


verb

verb: promote; 3rd person present: promotes; past tense: promoted; past participle: promoted; gerund or present participle: promoting



1. further the progress of (something, especially a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage.
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Except you're never going to find promotion in the limited way you are asking. People hide things that will get them in trouble. Organizations are generally very effective at it. That's why the pattern of actual behavior is significant/telling.

 
Hatuey said:
It's ****ing patently obvious. They're singing a ****ing song as if they've known it all their damn lives. Then you have similar racist events where chapters in entirely different states promote the same views. Then you have members of the same organization attacking and terrorizing other students; once again across various states and in different schools.

A rational person has two options when all of this information is given: They either question the organization itself or they can question the region these people live in.

I honestly don't want to get into whether this is a case of race in the South because it also involves Midwestern universities where race dynamics aren't always so clear. That leaves a single option, the fact that these events are tied by well, SAE members acting within a group dynamic. So just what views is SAE promoting that not one but various chapters in various states, across various decades end up conducting the same activities?

I think what's been most laughable about this entire discussion is that people are asking for a detailed history of SAE's racist history. As if racist chanting at a university would have made the news 50 years ago. What we have is SAE's recent history and that is one that shows a clear pattern of racism within the organization. As I said, the relationship between recording technology and these incidents is linear. The more technology available to record it, the more incidents we see.
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I sang songs while I was a Greek. One of them talked about getting drunk and ****ing the boyfriend of a Kappa Kappa Gamma, who was our "enemy sorority". It wasn't in our national songbook. It was written by a sister in my chapter and passed down through the years. My national couldn't take the heat for that.
 
americanwoman said:
For those that say you can't expel a student due to freedom of speech, maybe you can read the OU code of conduct, which does not allow unwelcome conduct (chanting could be said as conduct) that is threatening and humiliating, which I personally would find a group of people chanting what these kids did as both of those things.
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Private venue lacking anyone to harass, threaten or humiliate. Fully protected by the 1st which trumps any policy set by the public university.
 
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