Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of punishme

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

faithful_servant said:

Sorry, but the multi-billion $ corporation of Wal-Mart disagrees with you...

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That's because Walmart has lost tons of lawsuits over stupid things they've done. That's why they don't go chasing people into the parking lot to see their receipt anymore, the courts have found that there is no obligation whatsoever to prove you bought what is in your cart. Walmart learned from hard experience.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

JANFU said:

Facility I am at is 1/2 million sq ft. It depends upon the product monitored and how much a company is willing to spend.

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For that much square footage.....I concede that the system would be expensive.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

JANFU said:

Thoughts are?
Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of punishment

Imagine you’re browsing at Bloomingdale’s when a security guard taps you on the shoulder and accuses you of shoplifting. He takes you to a private room, sits you down, and runs your name through a database to see if you have any outstanding warrants. Then he tells you that you have two options. The first involves him calling the police, who might arrest you and take you to jail. The second allows you to walk out of the store immediately, no questions asked—right after you sign an admission of guilt and agree to pay $320 to take an online course designed to make you never want to steal again.

Which would you choose?

Click to expand...

Let me address this simply and easily.

For the most part, to detain an individual for shoplifting, the following 5 steps must be observed by an individual (either employee, owner, ot store security) before the apprehension (arrest) can be made.

1. Approach the item
2. Select the item
3. Conceal the item (this one can be skipped, not alll shoplifters conceal the items they steal)
4. Pass all points of purchase
5. Exit the store

Now almost nowhere do stores detain an individual inside of the store, they all wait until they exit the store. This is to prevent the claim that they "were going to pay". Once you leave, that is it. Nobody can claim they were going to pay once they leave.

As for the course, this has little to nothing to do with them being turned over to the police or not. This actually falls under the laws about Merchant Rights and Civil Restitution. In short, the individual if the store has this kind of program gives up the civil restitution allowed by the state (in California it is from $50 to $500) and instead takes a course intended to help deter the individual from stealing again.

Qualify and take the course, and there is no criminal record. Refuse, and the store can either have you pay them the civil restitution, or have you arrested and still have you pay the civil restitution. But if some guard came up to me inside the store and tried to charge me with shoplifting, then they had better have a good attorney, because I for one know much more then most about shoplifting law, and what they can and can not do.

But to give an idea, this almost never happens. In over 7 months of working Loss Prevention (basically professional shoplifter catcher), I have had hundreds of detainments, and only a single "bad stop". Sorry, but your scenario is questionable at best.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

I prefer to buy online so it isn't really an issue for me.

About the only time I really visit a physical store is a supermarket.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

FlyingHippos said:

I prefer to buy online so it isn't really an issue for me.

About the only time I really visit a physical store is a supermarket.

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And your point here is?

I work in Loss Prevention. And every store I work in is a supermarket.

One of the local stores I work in has an average monthly alcohol theft rate of over $55,000 per month. Just a couple of days ago I stopped a guy trying to steal over $400 worth of meat. I have had single stops of over $1,100, and had single day recoveries of over $2,400 worth of merchandise.

All in grocery stores.

And one of the store chains I work at does participate in this program. But grocery stores are common targets for boosters (professional shoplifters). The merchandise inside is easy to sell, impossible to trace, and is frequently of high value and completely unserialized.

Steal a TV from the local chain store, and the cops can trace the serial number right back to the exact store it came from (and when they got it, and often the date it was stolen). Steal a backpack of batteries or baby formula from the local grocery store, and there is nothing to trace back to where it came from.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Oozlefinch said:

And your point here is?

I work in Loss Prevention. And every store I work in is a supermarket.

One of the local stores I work in has an average monthly alcohol theft rate of over $55,000 per month. Just a couple of days ago I stopped a guy trying to steal over $400 worth of meat. I have had single stops of over $1,100, and had single day recoveries of over $2,400 worth of merchandise.

All in grocery stores.

And one of the store chains I work at does participate in this program. But grocery stores are common targets for boosters (professional shoplifters). The merchandise inside is easy to sell, impossible to trace, and is frequently of high value and completely unserialized.

Steal a TV from the local chain store, and the cops can trace the serial number right back to the exact store it came from (and when they got it, and often the date it was stolen). Steal a backpack of batteries or baby formula from the local grocery store, and there is nothing to trace back to where it came from.

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That not everyone shops in store, and people can choose to pay the extra dime to have it delivered and purchase online.

Unless you can hack into the website, you aren't going to be accused of 'shoplifting'.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Cephus said:

That's because Walmart has lost tons of lawsuits over stupid things they've done. That's why they don't go chasing people into the parking lot to see their receipt anymore, the courts have found that there is no obligation whatsoever to prove you bought what is in your cart. Walmart learned from hard experience.

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Actually, that is not quite true.

The way that law works, is that you can not selectively check receipts.

A receipt check is legal. However, if you do so you must check the receipt of every customer that exits the store, not just select individuals.

However, by the same token, you are not required to submit to such a check. Legally, once money has exchanged hands and you have been given a receipt, the merchandise is yours. And nobody has the right to demand a receipt.

Now to complicate things to yet another degree, the only exceptions to these that I am aware of are military exchanges (which operate differently then any other retail establishments), and membership stores.

Now a membership store (Sams Club, Costco, etc) has no more right to check a receipt then any other store. However, as a member you agree to follow their security protocols. You can indeed refuse to comply with their search. But they then have the right to revoke your membership, so that would be a rather foolish thing to do.

Myself, even though I work in Loss Prevention, I refuse to stop for what I call "Door Nazis" (those at Fry's can be the worst). However, I comply each time I use the exchange on base, or when I go to Sams Club or Costco, because I am aware that those are exceptions, and I do not want to loose my privlidges to shop in those places.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Oozlefinch said:

Actually, that is not quite true.

The way that law works, is that you can not selectively check receipts.

A receipt check is legal. However, if you do so you must check the receipt of every customer that exits the store, not just select individuals.

However, by the same token, you are not required to submit to such a check. Legally, once money has exchanged hands and you have been given a receipt, the merchandise is yours. And nobody has the right to demand a receipt.

Now to complicate things to yet another degree, the only exceptions to these that I am aware of are military exchanges (which operate differently then any other retail establishments), and membership stores.

Now a membership store (Sams Club, Costco, etc) has no more right to check a receipt then any other store. However, as a member you agree to follow their security protocols. You can indeed refuse to comply with their search. But they then have the right to revoke your membership, so that would be a rather foolish thing to do.

Myself, even though I work in Loss Prevention, I refuse to stop for what I call "Door Nazis" (those at Fry's can be the worst). However, I comply each time I use the exchange on base, or when I go to Sams Club or Costco, because I am aware that those are exceptions, and I do not want to loose my privlidges to shop in those places.

Click to expand...

I stopped shopping at Fry's partially for that reason.

The other part was that their customer service just wasn't very good. Well, ok, it sucked.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Oozlefinch said:

Actually, that is not quite true.

The way that law works, is that you can not selectively check receipts.

A receipt check is legal. However, if you do so you must check the receipt of every customer that exits the store, not just select individuals.

However, by the same token, you are not required to submit to such a check. Legally, once money has exchanged hands and you have been given a receipt, the merchandise is yours. And nobody has the right to demand a receipt.

Now to complicate things to yet another degree, the only exceptions to these that I am aware of are military exchanges (which operate differently then any other retail establishments), and membership stores.

Now a membership store (Sams Club, Costco, etc) has no more right to check a receipt then any other store. However, as a member you agree to follow their security protocols. You can indeed refuse to comply with their search. But they then have the right to revoke your membership, so that would be a rather foolish thing to do.

Myself, even though I work in Loss Prevention, I refuse to stop for what I call "Door Nazis" (those at Fry's can be the worst). However, I comply each time I use the exchange on base, or when I go to Sams Club or Costco, because I am aware that those are exceptions, and I do not want to loose my privlidges to shop in those places.

Click to expand...

"A receipt check is legal. However, if you do so you must check the receipt of every customer that exits the store, not just select individuals."

In Massachusetts that is completely illegal because they have to have probable cause to detain anyone and more than once Ive breezed right by the checkers at the exit and if they yell at me I tell them to eff off and stay out of my way. On one occasion I returned a tool for an exchange and three employees saw the transaction. I told the clerk I needed to check on some items and asked if it was okay I take the new tool and receipt with me and he said yes. A few minutes later I left and the manager ran out and blocked my path and asked to see my receipt. I asked why and he refused to answer then he literally tried to grab it out of my hand so I pushed him and another employee got in between us. I asked him five more times why he wanted to see my receipt and he never gave a reason. Legally I could have used whatever tools I had on me to defend myself from false imprisonment but I chose a nonviolent path and embarrassed the heck out of him in front of his employees and many customers.

The membership stores have you sign a contract where you waive your right to not being searched so once you are a member and leave the store they have the legal right, by your own signature, to demand proof for payment.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Brischera said:

"A receipt check is legal. However, if you do so you must check the receipt of every customer that exits the store, not just select individuals."

In Massachusetts that is completely illegal because they have to have probable cause to detain anyone and more than once Ive breezed right by the checkers at the exit and if they yell at me I tell them to eff off and stay out of my way. On one occasion I returned a tool for an exchange and three employees saw the transaction. I told the clerk I needed to check on some items and asked if it was okay I take the new tool and receipt with me and he said yes. A few minutes later I left and the manager ran out and blocked my path and asked to see my receipt. I asked why and he refused to answer then he literally tried to grab it out of my hand so I pushed him and another employee got in between us. I asked him five more times why he wanted to see my receipt and he never gave a reason. Legally I could have used whatever tools I had on me to defend myself from false imprisonment but I chose a nonviolent path and embarrassed the heck out of him in front of his employees and many customers.

The membership stores have you sign a contract where you waive your right to not being searched so once you are a member and leave the store they have the legal right, by your own signature, to demand proof for payment.

Click to expand...

And guess what? A receipt check is not probable cause to charge somebody with theft either.

If somebody walked up with an item that was not on the receipt, you could not detain them. Legally, you did not see them take the item, you do not have a valid reason to conduct an arrest.

Receipt checks are a deterrent, they are not legally valid reasons to conduct an arrest for theft.

And no, at membership stores you do not "waive your right to being searched". If one wants to try and pat me down without legal justification, I will knock their block off. However, you do agree to comply with any security measures.

But remember, this is a membership store. They still can not force you to do anything. Any waiver does not "legally authorize" them to search you at all. And if you refuse to be searched, you are not breaking the law, you can not be arrested. You are simply breaking the agreement, and they will likely terminate your membership.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Oozlefinch said:

Let me address this simply and easily.

For the most part, to detain an individual for shoplifting, the following 5 steps must be observed by an individual (either employee, owner, ot store security) before the apprehension (arrest) can be made.

1. Approach the item
2. Select the item
3. Conceal the item (this one can be skipped, not alll shoplifters conceal the items they steal)
4. Pass all points of purchase
5. Exit the store

Now almost nowhere do stores detain an individual inside of the store, they all wait until they exit the store. This is to prevent the claim that they "were going to pay". Once you leave, that is it. Nobody can claim they were going to pay once they leave.

As for the course, this has little to nothing to do with them being turned over to the police or not. This actually falls under the laws about Merchant Rights and Civil Restitution. In short, the individual if the store has this kind of program gives up the civil restitution allowed by the state (in California it is from $50 to $500) and instead takes a course intended to help deter the individual from stealing again.

Qualify and take the course, and there is no criminal record. Refuse, and the store can either have you pay them the civil restitution, or have you arrested and still have you pay the civil restitution. But if some guard came up to me inside the store and tried to charge me with shoplifting, then they had better have a good attorney, because I for one know much more then most about shoplifting law, and what they can and can not do.

But to give an idea, this almost never happens. In over 7 months of working Loss Prevention (basically professional shoplifter catcher), I have had hundreds of detainments, and only a single "bad stop". Sorry, but your scenario is questionable at best.

Click to expand...

What in the article do you find questionable?

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Ockham said:

Tell him to call the police, I call my lawyer and tell him we have a misdemeanor charge from Bloomingdales to make the store and police look bad and a very juicy civil suit for at least 20 million as well as possible defamation charges. And I make sure the person who brought me into the room and the person watching through the camera can hear and see everything, as well as I'd spell the name of the law firm.

I'd then watch this guard break out into a sweat, let them give me store credit and kiss my ass and STILL file a civil lawsuit as well as make sure the lawyer subpoena's the video from my "questioning".

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Sigh, then you would be charged with shoplifting and quickly learn that your lawsuit is not worth $20 dollars, let alone $20,000,000 dollars.

Rather, private parties can propose darn near any private contract to you they want to. This means they can propose a contract to you, or any other individual requiring that person to take a "special" course that costs $320.00. But look on the bright side, you dont have to accept the contract.

Last I heard Bloomingdales is still in business. My guess is that they have not lost many 20 million dollar lawsuits. Are you sure that the road to riches is to decline Bloomingdale's offered contract?

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Oozlefinch said:

And guess what? A receipt check is not probable cause to charge somebody with theft either.

If somebody walked up with an item that was not on the receipt, you could not detain them. Legally, you did not see them take the item, you do not have a valid reason to conduct an arrest.

Receipt checks are a deterrent, they are not legally valid reasons to conduct an arrest for theft.

And no, at membership stores you do not "waive your right to being searched". If one wants to try and pat me down without legal justification, I will knock their block off. However, you do agree to comply with any security measures.

But remember, this is a membership store. They still can not force you to do anything. Any waiver does not "legally authorize" them to search you at all. And if you refuse to be searched, you are not breaking the law, you can not be arrested. You are simply breaking the agreement, and they will likely terminate your membership.

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"And no, at membership stores you do not "waive your right to being searched". If one wants to try and pat me down without legal justification, I will knock their block off. However, you do agree to comply with any security measures."

Read those sentences again. When you sign the membership you agree to comply with the security measures which INCLUDES being searched when leaving the store.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Cryptic said:

Sigh, then you would be charged with shoplifting and quickly learn that your lawsuit is not worth $20 dollars, let alone $20,000,000 dollars.

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The monetary amount is irrelevant - the misdemeanor charge would be to anyone who values a clean record - like I would. Therefore, I'd pay my lawyer versus the store security to clear my name. I guess, to your point, if I didn't care about my criminal record or if it was already in the toilet, sure.

Bloomingdales would also have smart enough attorneys to know that dropping the charges would benefit them versus being pulled into a small criminal trial - with the potential for bad press to hurt sales and tarnish their brand.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Ockham said:

The monetary amount is irrelevant - the misdemeanor charge would be to anyone who values a clean record - like I would. Therefore, I'd pay my lawyer versus the store security to clear my name. I guess, to your point, if I didn't care about my criminal record or if it was already in the toilet, sure.

Bloomingdales would also have smart enough attorneys to know that dropping the charges would benefit them versus being pulled into a small criminal trial - with the potential for bad press to hurt sales and tarnish their brand.

Click to expand...

You are missing the core concept. Bloomingdales is simply proposing a contract to certain select individuals (buy a product for $320.00. In return, we wont do "X" ) As they are simply proposing a contract, there is no recourse in a lawsuit. Rather, all people can do is decline the contract.

Likewise, the concept of a "clean name" is not relevlent as Bloomingdales is not publishing a list of "People to whom we offered our "special" contract to". At the end of the day, the matter is simply: A private business offers a contract to select private individuals. Some refuse, some accept. End of story.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Cryptic said:

You are missing the core concept. Bloomingdales is simply proposing a contract to certain select individuals (buy a product for $320.00. In return, we wont do "X" ) As they are simply proposing a contract, there is no recourse in a lawsuit. Rather, all people can do is decline the contract.

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And my counter proposal would be, You do X, and I will make sure to drag you Bloomingdales to court. Big whup.

Cryptic said:

Likewise, the concept of a "clean name" is not relevlent as Bloomingdales is not publishing a list of "People to whom we offered our "special" contract to". At the end of the day, the matter is simply: A private business offers a contract to select private individuals. Some refuse, some accept. End of story.

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A list of names certainly would come out in court though, and probably leaked inadvertently to the press. My point is, you stand up to the bully they back down; they have more to lose. Sure we're talking hypotheticals here and real life can be much different. But nothing you've stated would change my original post and view of this subject were I to be accused of shoplifting. :shrug:

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Ockham said:

And my counter proposal would be, You do X, and I will make sure to drag you Bloomingdales to court. Big whup.

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Yes, you would end up trying to drag Bloomindales into court with out alot of results. Suing somebody who simply offered you a contract is probably not going to be successful.

Ockham said:

A list of names certainly would come out in court though, and probably leaked inadvertently to the press.

Click to expand...

Only because you publically declined the contract by going to court.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

JANFU said:

Thoughts are?
Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of punishment

Imagine you’re browsing at Bloomingdale’s when a security guard taps you on the shoulder and accuses you of shoplifting. He takes you to a private room, sits you down, and runs your name through a database to see if you have any outstanding warrants. Then he tells you that you have two options. The first involves him calling the police, who might arrest you and take you to jail. The second allows you to walk out of the store immediately, no questions asked—right after you sign an admission of guilt and agree to pay $320 to take an online course designed to make you never want to steal again.

Which would you choose?

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First of all, that security guard better draw a sidearm on me if he expects me to go into some private room with him.

Second of all, that security guard better be prepared to shoot me...because I'll be walking out of his store.

Third of all, I really do hope he calls the Police.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Cryptic said:

Yes, you would end up trying to drag Bloomindales into court with out alot of results. Suing somebody who simply offered you a contract is probably not going to be successful.

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They have the option to drop the charges. Criminal is not the same as civil. You may be confusing the two.

Cryptic said:

Only because you publically declined the contract by going to court.

Click to expand...

Irrelevant why - as long as it goes to court.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Mycroft said:

First of all, that security guard better draw a sidearm on me if he expects me to go into some private room with him.

Second of all, that security guard better be prepared to shoot me...because I'll be walking out of his store.

Third of all, I really do hope he calls the Police.

Click to expand...

Assume in all three of your comment and scenarios that you ARE actually guilty of theft. Is your response still the same?

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Ockham said:

They have the option to drop the charges. Criminal is not the same as civil. You may be confusing the two.

Click to expand...

Sure, they have the option to drop the charges. But they only want to excercise that option if the person accepts a contract. They have every right to offer such such a contract. The other party has every right to refuse the contract. In which case, Bloomingdales presses charges.

Heck, one person offered me a similar contract: I hit her car and caused very minor damages. She offered not to report it if I paid her cash. I declined her offered contract and let my insurance company repair the damage / "damage". I dont think a lawsuit would have benefitted me.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

VanceMack said:

Assume in all three of your comment and scenarios that you ARE actually guilty of theft. Is your response still the same?

Click to expand...

Why should I assume that? Under the OP's scenario, there is no mention of whether I was actually shoplifting or not. Just that the security guard accused me of shoplifting.

In any case, yes...my response would still be the same.

You know...I was in Walmart once and some guy wheeled out a shopping cart with a TV in it. The security thing went off and the guy at the door told him to stop. Guess what...he didn't. He kept on going. What did the Walmart guy do? Nothing...except make a note in a log. He didn't even follow the guy to get a plate number off his car.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Mycroft said:

Why should I assume that? Under the OP's scenario, there is no mention of whether I was actually shoplifting or not. Just that the security guard accused me of shoplifting.

In any case, yes...my response would still be the same.

You know...I was in Walmart once and some guy wheeled out a shopping cart with a TV in it. The security thing went off and the guy at the door told him to stop. Guess what...he didn't. He kept on going. What did the Walmart guy do? Nothing...except make a note in a log. He didn't even follow the guy to get a plate number off his car.

Click to expand...

You should assume it for the sake of argument and I am guessing that if you WERE actually guilty and knew you were ganked...you might loose just a tiny bit of pep in your step there and might consider working stuff out. Its EASY to say what you wouldnt do when you HAVENT done anything.

Mind you...Im not saying you WOULD see things differently...just that you might.

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

StillBallin75 said:

Allow me to give you some insights from first hand experience. As an inventory associate I often have to cover the asset protection specialist (usually the guy who stands up at the front) when he goes on break or for some other reason is unavailable. In our training videos, if we witness shoplifting, we are to confront the customer before they attempt to exit the store and apprehend them ("apprehend" not in a legal sense but just having a firm physical grip on the individual), and then lead them to the back room (usually the asset protection office where all the surveillance and video equipment is). I would say the vast majority of the time people choose to comply - if they don't, we try to prevent them from leaving the store until we can get the police involved.

Click to expand...

So you actually touch them?

Re: Pay us or we’ll call the cops: Many U.S. stores giving shoplifters choice of puni

Oozlefinch said:

Actually, that is not quite true.

The way that law works, is that you can not selectively check receipts.

A receipt check is legal. However, if you do so you must check the receipt of every customer that exits the store, not just select individuals.

However, by the same token, you are not required to submit to such a check. Legally, once money has exchanged hands and you have been given a receipt, the merchandise is yours. And nobody has the right to demand a receipt.

Now to complicate things to yet another degree, the only exceptions to these that I am aware of are military exchanges (which operate differently then any other retail establishments), and membership stores.

Now a membership store (Sams Club, Costco, etc) has no more right to check a receipt then any other store. However, as a member you agree to follow their security protocols. You can indeed refuse to comply with their search. But they then have the right to revoke your membership, so that would be a rather foolish thing to do.

Myself, even though I work in Loss Prevention, I refuse to stop for what I call "Door Nazis" (those at Fry's can be the worst). However, I comply each time I use the exchange on base, or when I go to Sams Club or Costco, because I am aware that those are exceptions, and I do not want to loose my privlidges to shop in those places.

Click to expand...

And that's exactly what I said. I ignore the door nazis, I just walk out and since I don't shop at any membership clubs, I don't have to worry about exceptions. I just laugh at the people who stop and submit and even more at the people who think they have power to make people submit. I remember years ago at one Walmart, having some little old blue-haired biddy chase me into the parking lot screaming at the top of her lungs "I have to check your receipt!" Sure lady. I just kept on going.