• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

Agreed, and Greece, but that's a separate problem. Guderian always maintained he still would have had enough time if the army weren't diverted by the Kiev sideshow.

And he would have had the time.
 
Agreed, and Greece, but that's a separate problem. Guderian always maintained he still would have had enough time if the army weren't diverted by the Kiev sideshow.

The fact that the Germans had greatly underestimated the sheer size of the Red Army was also a major factor. German intelligence before Barbarossa was woeful
 
Thats one mans viewpoint. Why does that negate the wishes of the great majority Ukrainians ?



No that is the whole point, as the responses illuminate



If you had actually read my link you would know that no NATO action can ever be initiated without the agreement of all members. NATO is a defensive alliance it has nothing to do with the EU


OOOPsie! Somebody gonna have to explain that to the dead, dying, starving, impoverished Libyans.
 
The fact that the Germans had greatly underestimated the sheer size of the Red Army was also a major factor. German intelligence before Barbarossa was woeful

They were certainly surprised by 100 divisions brought in from Siberia in December 1941; they assumed those would be left in Asia to guard against the Japanese. I've had the impression the Germans thought the Russians' great numbers would be vulnerable to the Germans' better equipment and higher quality troops.
 
Thats one mans viewpoint. Why does that negate the wishes of the great majority Ukrainians ?



No that is the whole point, as the responses illuminate



If you had actually read my link you would know that no NATO action can ever be initiated without the agreement of all members. NATO is a defensive alliance it has nothing to do with the EU

Right. And Ukraine should not be a member of the EU, or NATO. Recognition as a buffer state by the West would satisfy both the West's and Russia's interests. It might not sit well with Ukraine, but its either that, or they become a proxy battlefield for Russia.


Maybe if we focused in on establishing an infrastructure that was not dependent upon gas and oil, we could minimize these types of conflicts - both Russia and the Middle East are driven by oil and gas economies. The long term solution to making them less relevant and more amenable to democracy is to take away the fuel that funds their dictators and extremists.
 
Nonsense. We have done nothing impactful, and nothing we have done has impeded in the slightest on "nation building at home."

i'd ask if you were kidding me, but i'm sure that you're not. anyway,

As U.S. faces new threats, Pentagon seeks bigger defense budget | Reuters

you probably won't get your hot war with Russia. you'll get the bill for part of it anyway, though. the next president will probably give you all of the war that you can stand. pretty much every frontrunner at this point is a hawk with something to prove.
 
It is a falsehood to claim that Russia sees (or ever saw) Ukraine as a buffer state. Ukraine has always been an economic prize.

1. Napoleon ignored Ukraine when he invaded Russia.
2. In WW1 the Germans never fought for Ukraine. Ukraine was on the front of Germany's Austro-Hungarian allies, and they retreated more than they advanced. At the time of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk (March 1918) Ukraine was already in full rebellion against the Soviet government in Moscow, so the Bolsheviks simply ceded all Ukraine to the Germans.
3. In WW2 General Guderian considered it a terrible mistake for the German army to temporarily turn away from Moscow in the summer of 1941 in order to assault Kiev. His warning was prophetic. Ukraine was not a buffer but rather a diversion; it is not on the road to Moscow.

As memory serves, believe Czar Alexander used what is now Ukraine as a diversion when at war with Sweden over that area
 
Right. And Ukraine should not be a member of the EU, or NATO. Recognition as a buffer state by the West would satisfy both the West's and Russia's interests. It might not sit well with Ukraine, but its either that, or they become a proxy battlefield for Russia.

This would be a direct violation of the 1975 Helsinki treaty (to which Russia is a signatory) which states

"every country has the right to belong or not to belong to international organizations, to be or not to be a party to bilateral or multilateral treaties including the right to be or not to be a party to treaties of alliance."

Moreover, when Russia signed the Founding Act, it pledged to uphold "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".

And that includes Ukraine

http://www.osce.org/mc/39501?download=true
 
Thats one mans viewpoint. Why does that negate the wishes of the great majority Ukrainians ?



No that is the whole point, as the responses illuminate



If you had actually read my link you would know that no NATO action can ever be initiated without the agreement of all members. NATO is a defensive alliance it has nothing to do with the EU

What are the wishes of the "great majority of Ukranians"?

The last I looked a majority elected a government which was toppled with the help of the CIA. So what American can say they know what a "great majority of Ukranians want?

I know a few and my first in-laws were born there. What 'they' want is to be left alone and not have east or west constantly picking over the carcass their wars bring them
 
This would be a direct violation of the 1975 Helsinki treaty (to which Russia is a signatory) which states

"every country has the right to belong or not to belong to international organizations, to be or not to be a party to bilateral or multilateral treaties including the right to be or not to be a party to treaties of alliance."

Moreover, when Russia signed the Founding Act, it pledged to uphold "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".

And that includes Ukraine

http://www.osce.org/mc/39501?download=true

Well....no.

Ukraine has the right to want to be in NATO. And NATO has the right to never seriously consider that as a possibility.
 
What are the wishes of the "great majority of Ukranians"?

The last I looked a majority elected a government which was toppled with the help of the CIA. So what American can say they know what a "great majority of Ukranians want?

I know a few and my first in-laws were born there. What 'they' want is to be left alone and not have east or west constantly picking over the carcass their wars bring them

In my many visits there between 2005 -12 I saw many EU flags flying next to Ukrainian ones even in the east. Conversely at no time did I ever see a Russian flag flying anywhere
 
Well....no.

Ukraine has the right to want to be in NATO. And NATO has the right to never seriously consider that as a possibility.

Well yes ...

Thats true, but Ukraine still has the right to ask and not expect to be invaded just for doing so
 
i'd ask if you were kidding me, but i'm sure that you're not. anyway,

As U.S. faces new threats, Pentagon seeks bigger defense budget | Reuters

you probably won't get your hot war with Russia. you'll get the bill for part of it anyway, though. the next president will probably give you all of the war that you can stand. pretty much every frontrunner at this point is a hawk with something to prove.

The US needs a larger defense budget. Decisions whether there will be war are not ours alone to make.
 
In my many visits there between 2005 -12 I saw many EU flags flying next to Ukrainian ones even in the east. Conversely at no time did I ever see a Russian flag flying anywhere

And THAT convinces you you know what "a great majority" of Ukrainians want......

Don't seek a career in intelligence gathering OK?
 
As memory serves, believe Czar Alexander used what is now Ukraine as a diversion when at war with Sweden over that area

That was Czar Peter I ("The Great") vs Charles XII of Sweden at Poltava in 1709. Ironically, in that campaign it was Russia that acted as a buffer for Ukraine. Charles went through Russia and then headed south to link up with a Cossack rebellion led by Ivan Mazepa.
 
That was Czar Peter I ("The Great") vs Charles XII of Sweden at Poltava in 1709. Ironically, in that campaign it was Russia that acted as a buffer for Ukraine. Charles went through Russia and then headed south to link up with a Cossack rebellion led by Ivan Mazepa.

OK....wrong Czar, wrong country, but in Obamaland I'm still right.

I knew distraction was in there and a connection to Napoleon having learned from it
 
i don't agree. i think we need to spend the money on other things for a few decades. there is no need for us to spend more on defense than many other countries combined. if the western world wants an army, it can build and fund one.

U.S. defense spending compared to other countries | pgpf.org

Country to country comparisons are deceptive. A Chinese soldier, for example is much cheaper than an American. A strong defense costs a lot. A weak one would cost more.
 
Country to country comparisons are deceptive. A Chinese soldier, for example is much cheaper than an American. A strong defense costs a lot. A weak one would cost more.

there's nothing deceptive about it. if a western world army is needed to solve every problem, then it needs to build one. we should be sending our kids to college.
 
there's nothing deceptive about it. if a western world army is needed to solve every problem, then it needs to build one. we should be sending our kids to college.

Too many people probably go to college now, but that's a different discussion. I take it you're not aware that military service is a primary means to acquire a college education for young people who otherwise could not afford it.
 
Well yes ...

Thats true, but Ukraine still has the right to ask and not expect to be invaded just for doing so

Right. But the whole point is that the West enabled that by pretending that EU/NATO partnership might be a reality.

We screwed them over with false hope.
 
Back
Top Bottom