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How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes [W:33]

Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

upsideguy said:
Companies can not simply raise prices because they want to. The incidence of the cost will be partially borne by the market and partially borne by the employer. On the flip side, putting pay in the hands of workers means putting more money out into the economy as low income workers spend nearly 100% of her income, thus it will translate to more sales of products.
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Actually...they can and DO raise their prices if they want too. And exactly 0% of the money is borne by the employer. It is all market. A company doesn't make money out of the air. Do you expect a company to take a hit when they can raise prices? Why do you think things don't cost a nickel anymore? It isn't just inflation.

And you don't just put more money in the economy. You put more people on minimum wage. Pure and simple. You aren't raising my pay from $11 per hour. Leave minimum pegged to inflation. As another poster said...why not just raise it to $1000? Then nobody will be poor.
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

avery45 said:
Why stop at $10? Why not make it $1,000 and hour?
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Exactly!!! I would rather make a grand an hour than $10. Why are we settling?
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

SlevinKelevra said:
circular logic detected.
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Oh what an informative and well written rebuttal and counter explaining how it is "circular logic".

It is actually very straight line logic. Labor costs rise, prices rise. A company, such as Walmart say, which has a profit margin of less than 4% is forced to absorb an increase in labor costs of 20% or greater cannot do so without raising incoming revenue, i.e., raising prices or reducing labor costs by automation, reducing the number of workers or other means to reduce labor costs.
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

DVSentinel said:
Oh what an informative and well written rebuttal and counter explaining how it is "circular logic".

It is actually very straight line logic. Labor costs rise, prices rise. A company, such as Walmart say, which has a profit margin of less than 4% is forced to absorb an increase in labor costs of 20% or greater cannot do so without raising incoming revenue, i.e., raising prices or reducing labor costs by automation, reducing the number of workers or other means to reduce labor costs.
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arguing with the ignorant -they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

ARealConservative said:
arguing with the ignorant -they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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Am I actually arguing with the ignorant or using their argument as a basis to inform and educate? Ignorance can be cured, stupidity cannot.

Hell. We haven't even gotten to what their attempts to hurt the 1% do to the millions of retirement accounts if the "owners" just suck it up. Yes, there are large share holders in companies, but where do these people think all the money in retirement accounts/funds come from?
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

Moderator's Warning:
The sly attempts to call posters "ignorant" or accuse them of breaking rules like "trolling" need to stop. Stick to the topic folks
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

DVSentinel said:
Am I actually arguing with the ignorant or using their argument as a basis to inform and educate? Ignorance can be cured, stupidity cannot.

Hell. We haven't even gotten to what their attempts to hurt the 1% do to the millions of retirement accounts if the "owners" just suck it up. Yes, there are large share holders in companies, but where do these people think all the money in retirement accounts/funds come from?
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sure looks like it to me

minimum wage debates have existed for decades, so when you laid out the typical position, you were met with "circular logic".
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

Blue_State said:
Why not?
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stonewall50 said:
Actually...they can and DO raise their prices if they want too. And exactly 0% of the money is borne by the employer. It is all market. A company doesn't make money out of the air. Do you expect a company to take a hit when they can raise prices? Why do you think things don't cost a nickel anymore? It isn't just inflation.

And you don't just put more money in the economy. You put more people on minimum wage. Pure and simple. You aren't raising my pay from $11 per hour. Leave minimum pegged to inflation. As another poster said...why not just raise it to $1000? Then nobody will be poor.
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You each could use a course in economics. Prices are set by the market; not by the supplier of the product. The ability of a player in the market to change prices is governed by a concept known as price elasticity. To the degree the commodity / product is high inelastic, such as oil, the companies can pass costs along and not bear as much of the cost themselves. To the extent the commodity / product is highly elastic, then they have little latitude to off-load costs in the form of price increases and eat more of the cost themselves. Much of the travel industry, particularly airlines, have a high degree of price elasticity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_elasticity_of_demand
http://economics.about.com/cs/micfrohelp/a/priceelasticity.htm

Now granted, in inefficient markets with oligopolistic participants, there is generally less price elasticity than in a free market.... but, generally less does not mean that companies can dictate prices.

Companies already set prices to maximize revenue based upon what the market will bear. If companies could simply dictate the price, they would naturally just charge more. But, they can't, so they don't.
 
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Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

upsideguy said:
You each could use a course in economics. Prices are set by the market; not by the supplier of the product.
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when the government intervenes, you can't continue to say the market sets the prices. government is not the market.
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

upsideguy said:
You each could use a course in economics. Prices are set by the market; not by the supplier of the product. The ability of a player in the market to change prices is governed by a concept known as price elasticity. To the degree the commodity / product is high inelastic, such as oil, the companies can pass costs along and not bear as much of the cost themselves. To the extent the commodity / product is highly elastic, then they have little latitude to off-load costs in the form of price increases and eat more of the cost themselves. Much of the travel industry, particularly airlines, have a high degree of price elasticity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_elasticity_of_demand
http://economics.about.com/cs/micfrohelp/a/priceelasticity.htm

Now granted, in inefficient markets with oligopolistic participants, there is generally less price elasticity than in a free market.... but, generally less does not mean that companies can dictate prices.

Companies already set prices to maximize revenue based upon what the market will bear. If companies could simply dictate the price, they would naturally just charge more. But, they can't, so they don't.
Click to expand...

You could talk to a business owner. Ask them what they do when minimum wages are hiked. I know what good businessmen do.

Btw the "market" is a non existent thing. It doesn't actually set a price. It simply decides what a good price should be in a theoretical sense.

As far as companies go: your argument defeats itself. Your argument is that a company can't raise costs because the consumer doesn't have the money to pay. You increase the pay of all consumers then a company CAN raise prices.
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

DVSentinel said:
They can?
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Yes they can. If they want to ask law makers to not raise the minimum wage, tey can.
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

stonewall50 said:
You could talk to a business owner. Ask them what they do when minimum wages are hiked. I know what good businessmen do.

Btw the "market" is a non existent thing. It doesn't actually set a price. It simply decides what a good price should be in a theoretical sense.

As far as companies go: your argument defeats itself. Your argument is that a company can't raise costs because the consumer doesn't have the money to pay. You increase the pay of all consumers then a company CAN raise prices.
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business owners absolutely set the price.

If they set the price higher then the market will bear, they go out of business.

This guy needs to get out and see how the actual world works. Too many people understand economics based on a college text book
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

upsideguy said:
You each could use a course in economics. Prices are set by the market; not by the supplier of the product. The ability of a player in the market to change prices is governed by a concept known as price elasticity. To the degree the commodity / product is high inelastic, such as oil, the companies can pass costs along and not bear as much of the cost themselves. To the extent the commodity / product is highly elastic, then they have little latitude to off-load costs in the form of price increases and eat more of the cost themselves. Much of the travel industry, particularly airlines, have a high degree of price elasticity.

Price elasticity of demand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Price Elasticity of Demand

Now granted, in inefficient markets with oligopolistic participants, there is generally less price elasticity than in a free market.... but, generally less does not mean that companies can dictate prices.

Companies already set prices to maximize revenue based upon what the market will bear. If companies could simply dictate the price, they would naturally just charge more. But, they can't, so they don't.
Click to expand...

There you go. Companies set prices. They can set it to whatever they want. It does not mean we have to buy it.
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

stonewall50 said:
You could talk to a business owner. Ask them what they do when minimum wages are hiked. I know what good businessmen do.

Btw the "market" is a non existent thing. It doesn't actually set a price. It simply decides what a good price should be in a theoretical sense.

As far as companies go: your argument defeats itself. Your argument is that a company can't raise costs because the consumer doesn't have the money to pay. You increase the pay of all consumers then a company CAN raise prices.
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I am a business owner, with 80 employees. Although I pay above minimum wage, I am getting squeezed by a tight labor market. My payroll costs were up 10% last year. I can not simply pass that cost to the customer, the market will not bear it. Apparently you are not a business owner or you would understand these limitations,

My argument is basic economic price theory. I provided you cites. Your argument is your impressions, which are not correct and your stubbornness to argue things you do not know and will not learn.

BTW, my argument is NOT that a company can't raise prices because consumers do not have the money to pay... not even close.
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

Blue_State said:
There you go. Companies set prices. They can set it to whatever they want. It does not mean we have to buy it.
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OK, and then when they have lost revenue because they set the price too high, they are "forced" to lower the price to the level that will once again maximize revenue.

If a company seeks to maximize profit, it will tend to seek to maximize revenue. If it seeks to maximize revenue, it will settle on the maximum price the market will bear.
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

upsideguy said:
I am a business owner, with 80 employees. Although I pay above minimum wage, I am getting squeezed by a tight labor market. My payroll costs were up 10% last year. I can not simply pass that cost to the customer, the market will not bear it. Apparently you are not a business owner or you would understand these limitations,

My argument is basic economic price theory. I provided you cites. Your argument is your impressions, which are not correct and your stubbornness to argue things you do not know and will not learn.

BTW, my argument is NOT that a company can't raise prices because consumers do not have the money to pay... not even close.
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you can only speculate what the market bears prior to taking a product/service to market. So your opinion is duly noted, but is not very convincing in a debate setting such as this

If government fiat increases operating expenses, the market may bear the price increase, and it may not.
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

Mason66 said:
Don't purposely misunderstand what I was trying to say.
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Clarification should be provided when the statement "Private Citizens can do whatever they want" is made
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

upsideguy said:
OK, and then when they have lost revenue because they set the price too high, they are "forced" to lower the price to the level that will once again maximize revenue.

If a company seeks to maximize profit, it will tend to seek to maximize revenue. If it seeks to maximize revenue, it will settle on the maximum price the market will bear.
Click to expand...

Who is forcing them? No one. No one forces a company to change their prices. Prices are set by the company.
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

Mason66 said:
Yes they can. If they want to ask law makers to not raise the minimum wage, tey can.
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That is "doing whatever they wish"?

Typical leftist ideals, one choice is "freedom". What I wish is to drive out or kill all socialist infesting the US and infecting our systems, especially the schools with their dead, disproved and poverty inspiring drivel. Can I do that? Nope. Guess that I, an American, cannot "do whatever I wish".
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

DVSentinel said:
That is "doing whatever they wish"?

Typical leftist ideals, one choice is "freedom". What I wish is to drive out or kill all socialist infesting the US and infecting our systems, especially the schools with their dead, disproved and poverty inspiring drivel. Can I do that? Nope. Guess that I, an American, cannot "do whatever I wish".
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What does any of that have to do with the OP?
 
Re: How a powerful rightwing lobby is plotting to stop minimum wage hikes

Mason66 said:
What does any of that have to do with the OP?
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Everything. The very existence of a Minimum wage is a socialist gimmick to try to equalize results without equalizing effort to achieve those results. No minimum wage should exist, workers should earn the market value of their labor not a set minimum.
 
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