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Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientation

Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

roguenuke said:
Because it causes issues within society when people refuse to do their job based on any views and a classification of someone or a group of people that has absolutely no real impact on their job, despite their claims otherwise. If you can't do your job to the full extent, then do something else. It doesn't matter if it is your religious views or other beliefs that cause the conflict. You are an adult. You should suck it up and do your job.
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She could have asked her partner to see the baby because she couldn't stand the smell of the parents' cigarette smoke. Or because one of the mothers reminded her of the girl who used to bully her in school. Or because she had a migraine and didn't want to drive to work. And this would have been a non-story.

If you think someone asking her partner to see a baby because she didn't want to work with the parents will change society, you better get your Congressman on the phone. That sounds like huge news to me.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Can you show me the law that was passed that said religion isn't part of the protected classes anymore?
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You are trying to twist what I said. Religion is protected from discrimination. Religious views that are used in an attempt to discriminate are not protected as more important than other views that are used to attempt to discriminate under federal law. For example, a Jewish doctor cannot claim that their religious views do not permit them to have a Muslim for a patient. A male Muslim teacher cannot refuse to teach girls due to his religious beliefs.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

roguenuke said:
You are trying to twist what I said. Religion is protected from discrimination. Religious views that are used in an attempt to discriminate are not protected as more important than other views that are used to attempt to discriminate under federal law. For example, a Jewish doctor cannot claim that their religious views do not permit them to have a Muslim for a patient. A male Muslim teacher cannot refuse to teach girls due to his religious beliefs.
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I hope that lawsuit works out and this couple wins millions to repair their hurt feelings.

By the way, what this doctor did was apparently quite legal. Don't let facts get in the way of a good crusade though.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
She could have asked her partner to see the baby because she couldn't stand the smell of the parents' cigarette smoke. Or because one of the mothers reminded her of the girl who used to bully her in school. Or because she had a migraine and didn't want to drive to work. And this would have been a non-story.

If you think someone asking her partner to see a baby because she didn't want to work with the parents will change society, you better get your Congressman on the phone. That sounds like huge news to me.
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Those things you mentioned are not protected, and you're right. Those things would not have been a big deal at all. But instead she decided to broadcast that it was bigotry based on her personal objections to the parents' relationship.

The fact that people are using such situations to show why sexual orientation needs to be included in all laws that protect against discrimination and to get rid of laws that give religious exemptions shows that there are plenty of people who feel such situations are big news.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
I hope that lawsuit works out and this couple wins millions to repair their hurt feelings.

By the way, what this doctor did was apparently quite legal. Don't let facts get in the way of a good crusade though.
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I never said there was a lawsuit in this case. Michigan does not have laws to protect against discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Which is why the parents went the way they did, exposing the doctor's bigotry to protect other families from choosing this doctor. It is possible that this could negatively affect her career, particularly if others drop this doctor's group due to this situation. I have no issue with that. I think that is what should be done in these such cases. I don't actually agree in suing someone for this type of discrimination. I don't fault people who do, when it is legally acceptable, but I don't think it is the best choice for most minor incidents, whether it is race, religion, sex, sexuality, or some other classification that was used to deny service.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

SMTA said:
And I recommend that you stop polluting gun threads.
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ROFL. You're pretty easily upset, aren't you? I was just giving you a useful suggestion. And notice I didn't insult you or your post when I did it.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

roguenuke said:
The patient has more right because the patient is the one using the service. The doctor does not rely on the patient to keep them healthy.
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I don't see the doctor complaining that the patient is using another doctor, so your "the patient has more right" just looks like stomping your foot. Both parties agree not to do buisness with eachother because they each dislike the other's ideology, and that's fine.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

roguenuke said:
Those things you mentioned are not protected, and you're right. Those things would not have been a big deal at all. But instead she decided to broadcast that it was bigotry based on her personal objections to the parents' relationship.

The fact that people are using such situations to show why sexual orientation needs to be included in all laws that protect against discrimination and to get rid of laws that give religious exemptions shows that there are plenty of people who feel such situations are big news.
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She decided to "broadcast" it? It was the couple who went to social media. The pediatrician told only her partner and didn't broadcast anything. It's amazing to read all the twisting that goes on here.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
The maybe she can fie suit against all of the people who are so intolerant of her religious views that they've gone on doctor rating sites - meant to help real people select a doctor who provides good medical care and not provide personal approval of their marriage - and posted malicious things about the doctor. She's exercising her religious views, and last I checked, they're also protected. Hurt feelings and all.
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Seriously? Knowing that a doctor doesn't want lesbian/gay patients is pretty important. It's exactly the kind of thing that should go on doctor rating sites. Because the last thing you want is to pick a doctor who disapproves of you and won't show up for your appointment.

She can have her views. But she can't stop people from pointing out that they disagree with her religious views.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Jerry said:
I don't see the doctor complaining that the patient is using another doctor, so your "the patient has more right" just looks like stomping your foot. Both parties agree not to do buisness with eachother because they each dislike the other's ideology, and that's fine.
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Not what happened here. The couple was first told that the person would not do business with them. This was not a mutual agreement.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

paddymcdougall said:
Seriously? Knowing that a doctor doesn't want lesbian/gay patients is pretty important. It's exactly the kind of thing that should go on doctor rating sites. Because the last thing you want is to pick a doctor who disapproves of you and won't show up for your appointment.

She can have her views. But she can't stop people from pointing out that they disagree with her religious views.
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Why is it important to know what your doctor's view on your choice of a marriage partner is again? I always thought people chose their doctors based on the quality of medical care they received.

The last thing you want to do is pick a doctor who disapproves of your spouse? That isn't the last thing I want to do.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

roguenuke said:
You are trying to twist what I said. Religion is protected from discrimination. Religious views that are used in an attempt to discriminate are not protected as more important than other views that are used to attempt to discriminate under federal law. For example, a Jewish doctor cannot claim that their religious views do not permit them to have a Muslim for a patient. A male Muslim teacher cannot refuse to teach girls due to his religious beliefs.
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What federal law is this?
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
She decided to "broadcast" it? It was the couple who went to social media. The pediatrician told only her partner and didn't broadcast anything. It's amazing to read all the twisting that goes on here.
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She shared the reasoning with the other doctor, who shared it with the couple. She put her beliefs out, opening up her reasoning to public scrutiny. She didn't have to give any reasoning, even to her fellow doctor as to why she was refusing to see the baby. Telling the truth was almost certainly the best route to go for her conscious (and I'm not saying anything against that), but that doesn't mean that it was "right" for the situation. It is possible that she believed that her fellow doctor would have lied for her because many people will do this to try to spare the feelings of other people when someone they know and like does something like this.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Why is it important to know what your doctor's view on your choice of a marriage partner is again? I always thought people chose their doctors based on the quality of medical care they received.

The last thing you want to do is pick a doctor who disapproves of your spouse? That isn't the last thing I want to do.
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Please. Re-read what I said. I'll try it again since you apparently didn't get what I was saying.

You don't want to pick a doctor who will decide not to show up for an appt because your partner is the same gender.

If the doctor is willing to treat you- or your child -regardless of your partner's gender, that's fine. But if they won't - you don't want to waste the time calling to make the appt.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Why is it important to know what your doctor's view on your choice of a marriage partner is again? I always thought people chose their doctors based on the quality of medical care they received.

The last thing you want to do is pick a doctor who disapproves of your spouse? That isn't the last thing I want to do.
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And if a doctor is going to drop you due to their religious views of your situation, then that would tell people that you are not going to get the best quality of care from this doctor, and might even end up with a canceled appointment if they refuse to see you and another doctor in their group can't or won't see you the day of your appointment. This is not the best quality of care, and has a potential to happen just due to the person's religious views. It would be just as important to know if your doctor didn't approve of interracial relationships or certain religions or their religious views were that women should be treated differently somehow than men, girls treated differently than boys. These do affect the level of care/service that you would receive from the doctor.

The thing this doctor should have done was to have told them about her issue with their relationship when they first came to her, not waiting til after they had an appointment with her to then refuse to see their child. She might have faced the same outing of her views, but it would have shown that she at least would tell you if she was going to refuse to serve you before you made plans with her.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

paddymcdougall said:
Please. Re-read what I said. I'll try it again since you apparently didn't get what I was saying.

You don't want to pick a doctor who will decide not to show up for an appt because your partner is the same gender.

If the doctor is willing to treat you- or your child -regardless of your partner's gender, that's fine. But if they won't - you don't want to waste the time calling to make the appt.
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No....you wouldn't want a doctor who doesn't like your choice of marriage partner. And that's perfectly fine that you feel that way, but it isn't a reason most people select a pediatrician.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

roguenuke said:
And if a doctor is going to drop you due to their religious views of your situation, then that would tell people that you are not going to get the best quality of care from this doctor, and might even end up with a canceled appointment if they refuse to see you and another doctor in their group can't or won't see you the day of your appointment. This is not the best quality of care, and has a potential to happen just due to the person's religious views. It would be just as important to know if your doctor didn't approve of interracial relationships or certain religions or their religious views were that women should be treated differently somehow than men, girls treated differently than boys. These do affect the level of care/service that you would receive from the doctor.

The thing this doctor should have done was to have told them about her issue with their relationship when they first came to her, not waiting til after they had an appointment with her to then refuse to see their child. She might have faced the same outing of her views, but it would have shown that she at least would tell you if she was going to refuse to serve you before you made plans with her.
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Fascinating. Then you better make sure you know all about your kids' pediatrician's religious views so this tragedy doesn't happen to you either.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
No....you wouldn't want a doctor who doesn't like your choice of marriage partner. And that's perfectly fine that you feel that way, but it isn't a reason most people select a pediatrician.
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If you are going to continue to mis-read what I type, there is no use in continuing to discuss things with you.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
No....you wouldn't want a doctor who doesn't like your choice of marriage partner. And that's perfectly fine that you feel that way, but it isn't a reason most people select a pediatrician.
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Actually, there are a lot of parents out there who wouldn't want to go to a pediatrician that has an issue with your choice of marriage partner. The vast majority would drop that person as a pediatrician (assuming they could) quickly upon finding out such information. Most of us want a pediatrician who is reliable and going to give us the same service that they would provide for anyone else, regardless of their personal feelings about our personal relationships (assuming it is based on something that does not involve abuse, which is a legitimate concern of the pediatrician, since it can affect the health and well being of the child to have a parent/caregiver who is being abused or abusive).
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Taylor said:
Doesn't apply. But I'm guessing you already knew that?
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It applies to what I was discussing, religion or race. What exactly are you saying it doesn't apply to? Just so we're clear, I never claimed or suggested that it applied in this particular situation or to same sex couples.

In regards to how I was applying it in the post you first responded to, in the case of the two women and the baby, it wouldn't matter if her views were based on religion or her just claiming she felt their relationship was wrong, unnatural, or just disgusting, no religion involved, because religion doesn't make any difference when the classification isn't protected either.
 
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Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Fascinating. Then you better make sure you know all about your kids' pediatrician's religious views so this tragedy doesn't happen to you either.
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Please stop with the over-the-top hyperbole. We can't read people's minds, but that doesn't mean that if this information is shared somehow, that it shouldn't be used to make the decision about your pediatrician choice.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

roguenuke said:
Actually, there are a lot of parents out there who wouldn't want to go to a pediatrician that has an issue with your choice of marriage partner. The vast majority would drop that person as a pediatrician (assuming they could) quickly upon finding out such information. Most of us want a pediatrician who is reliable and going to give us the same service that they would provide for anyone else, regardless of their personal feelings about our personal relationships (assuming it is based on something that does not involve abuse, which is a legitimate concern of the pediatrician, since it can affect the health and well being of the child to have a parent/caregiver who is being abused or abusive).
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So then maybe start a national database of pediatricians who have opinions on couples' choices of marriage partners so tragedies like this don't happen again. I don't care what my kids' pediatrician thinks of my husband, and I'm guessing my husband would say the same thing.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

roguenuke said:
Please stop with the over-the-top hyperbole. We can't read people's minds, but that doesn't mean that if this information is shared somehow, that it shouldn't be used to make the decision about your pediatrician choice.
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Like I just said in another post, start a national database. Or post your outrage on review sites. Makes no difference to me. I picked my kids' pediatric practice because I was concerned about the quality of my kids' medical care, not because I was seeking their approval on my choice of spouse.
 
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