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Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientation

Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

tres borrachos said:
It's completely possible that she could have gotten run over by a bus on the morning of the baby's scheduled visit and not seen the baby either.
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Wow, look at all the courage you mustered in this thread. From calling hypotheticals cowardly to plunging right into it. what is next condemnation of bigotry at any level or is that too much to ask?
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
What if there aren't alternative doctors? What if the alternative doctors are also bigots?

Then the parents waste time and their child isn't getting health care. Eventually, this can end in sickness and huge bills if they just resort to going to the only place they're certain won't turn them away.

We have seen this before, in the form of the Plan B debacle, which leads to unwanted pregnancies, and therefore either potentially insurmountable expense, or harm to the woman, potentially ending in death. And just like in those threads, the defenders in this one mostly don't care whether there had been an alternative doctor or not. The person I'm responding to didn't seem to -- they defend the "right" of doctors to refuse to do their job based on their bigotry.

And even if that isn't the eventuality, I'm sorry, but when you're on the clock, your personal BS needs to go on the back burner. Just do you job like everyone else. This couple and their child don't deserve to be subject to emotional brow-beating and humiliation by supposed "professionals" either. Their lives are hard enough being gay in America.
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There were alternative doctors. This wasn't an emergency situation. And in a group of doctors sharing a practice, any one of them can see a patient. That's why they have group practices.

This isn't about Plan B or abortions. Nobody got hurt here. And I don't know where there was any brow beating or humiliation? The doctor didn't say anything denigrating that I saw.

And they went public with this story, did they not? So they're humiliated, and they decide to humiliate themselves even more by having it be discussed everywhere? Interesting.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
A fireman can't decide he won't put a fire out because he doesn't like the people, unless there are other firemen with him who can do the job without him. Then if he choses to walk away, it's between him and his superiors. As long as my house is saved as it's supposed to be, why would I care ?
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So you would deny firemen the same freedom you advocate for this doctor because you do want to save your house. How noble of you.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
What if there aren't alternative doctors? What if the alternative doctors are also bigots?

Then the parents waste time and their child isn't getting health care. Eventually, this can end in sickness and huge bills if they just resort to going to the only place they're certain won't turn them away.

We have seen this before, in the form of the Plan B debacle, which leads to unwanted pregnancies, and therefore either potentially insurmountable expense, or harm to the woman, potentially ending in death. And just like in those threads, the defenders in this one mostly don't care whether there had been an alternative doctor or not. The person I'm responding to didn't seem to -- they defend the "right" of doctors to refuse to do their job based on their bigotry.

And even if that isn't the eventuality, I'm sorry, but when you're on the clock, your personal BS needs to go on the back burner. Just do you job like everyone else. This couple and their child don't deserve to be subject to emotional brow-beating and humiliation by supposed "professionals" either. Their lives are hard enough being gay in America.
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The woman and the baby isn't owed anything. Where you people get the idea that because you show up to someone wanting service they are obligated to give it to you? Not even anti-discrimination laws imply such a thing, so please people, stop with the whole open to the public crap. All they make people do is pick a different reason to deny service.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

prometeus said:
Why, aren't their convictions or faith just as valid?
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They are, but the state has said, it doesn't matter, you must provide emergency care if you're a doctor, pure and simple, really.


Normally yes, but the issue is that once such bigotry becomes acceptable at some level it becomes acceptable at all levels.
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That's a false dichotomy, and as such invalid on its face.


By the way how do you feel about being humiliated? Does it just roll of your back, do you feel angry, even a desire to even the score?
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Again, I point to the delusion that one must feel, thinking that everyone must be accepting of homosexuality. The truth is that, not everyone agrees with your lifestyle choice, and some, including me think it's primarily a choice brought about by one's environment and mental capacity to distinguish and understand how our chemistry is affected by various inputs.

Because doctors don't have personal profiles that say, "Not a bigoted asshole -- gays and their children accepted here." That's why.
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Rhetoric aside, do you not interview a doctor before choosing them? For that matter, do you not interview any one person providing a service? I do all the time.


So, what, they should just wander around knocking on doors until they find one, meanwhile their child isn't getting their regular check-ups, or perhaps their treatment for an illness? Or perhaps resort to paying 5 times as much money by going to the ER, if they can't afford any further delay?
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Again, this was not an emergency situation so your analogy fails.

Why? Why should doctors be permitted to subject people to that? Why should gay people have to look for a doctor who's "accepting" in the first place?
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Because the simple truth is that not everyone thinks homosexuals are as wholesome as some would lead you to believe.

Everyone deals with people they don't like while on the job, and usually in jobs that are far less critical than health care. Yet doctors, who decide if people live or die, should be the exception?
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Exactly, if it were me, I certainly wouldn't allow this to go unchecked, and I'm sure Michigan will address it, however, this was not a live and die situation. A Pediatrician is providing a service, and emergency care is usually performed at hospitals where life saving equipment is more readily available.

Why the hell should that be allowed?
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because people, even service providers have rights as well. Homosexuals don't have a right, nor anyone else to not be offended. They don't have a right to force someone to accept them and their lifestyle choices.

Tim-
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
A fireman can't decide he won't put a fire out because he doesn't like the people, unless there are other firemen with him who can do the job without him. Then if he choses to walk away, it's between him and his superiors. As long as my house is saved as it's supposed to be, why would I care ?
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Who says? Or, who made the law or rules that say the fireman or group, cannot refuse to put out a lesbian's house fire based on their religious beliefs?

Some communities only have volunteer fire depts. I grew up in one, my dad was one of them. I can imagine a small self-righteous conservative group refusing to do so based on their religious beliefs. Or more likely, a couple of cops showing up to a gay domestic abuse situation and walking away.

I agree that it's been established that they cannot (probably anyway)...but it has to be established. As it does here in this case for docs in MI....obviously, since it just happened and could happen in less safe circumstances.

tres borrachos said:
The other big difference being this wasn't an emergency situation. People are turning this into an emergency situation. It wasn't. That would be entirely different if this couple drove their sick baby to a hospital and the only doctor there refused to see the baby. But that isn't what happened. In fact, not even close.
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How do you know that a doc wouldnt refuse to help in an emergency situation? Do we wait until a kid dies to examine the issue....in the courts if necessary? Or see that there are people like this in professions with life or death responsibilities, see that they do indeed choose to exercise their religious objections, and create the laws and guidelnes BEFORE someone dies? In reality, it would protect both the professionals and the patients/victims.
 
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Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

AliHajiSheik said:
Isn't that what government is about, forcing people to do stuff they don't want to do because someone else thinks they should?
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No, it's not. I think we found the source of your confusion

I was asked for an opinion and I gave it and disagreement on this forum is expected.
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And I pointed out the hypocrisy of your opinion. Your disagreement is expected
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

tres borrachos said:
Please stop asking me to join the emotional bandwagon you're on.
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I am not asking you to join anything. On the contrary I'd prefer you to not be on any wagon with me.

I don't care who likes who.
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Neither do I, and it is irrelevant.

Not my business, and I'll show you the same courtesy by not asking you to dislike the same people that I don't like.
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I do not care who you dislike or like, nor am I asking to to like or dislike anyone. The issue here is bigotry of a particular doctor and you condone it. It is as simple as that.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

prometeus said:
You need to switch to this universe.
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So you ran out of things to say to defend your entitled mindset. Good to know.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Lursa said:
Who says? Or, who made the law or rules that say the fireman or group, cannot refuse to put out a lesbian's house fire based on their religious beliefs?

Some communities only have volunteer fire depts. I grew up in one, my dad was one of them. I can imagine a small self-righteous conservative group refusing to do so based on their religious beliefs. Or more likely, a couple of cops showing up to a gay domestic abuse situation and walking away.

I agree that it's been established that they cannot (probably anyway)...but it has to be established. As it does here in this case for docs in MI....obviously, since it just happened and could happen in less safe circumstances.




How do you know that a doc wouldnt refuse to help in an emergency situation? Do we wait until a kid dies to examine the issue....in the courts if necessary? Or see that there are people like this in professions with life or death responsibilities, see that they do indeed choose to exercise their religious objections, and create the laws and guidelnes BEFORE someone dies? In reality, it would protect both the professionals and the patients/victims.
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Who says what?

And how did we get from a prescheduled baby wellness exam to emergency fires, anyway?

Or are you saying that it's happening in hospitals where doctors are turning away patients because of religious beliefs? Because if that's happening, then someone should start filing some reports with authorities. It isn't happening here in my state that I heard of
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
There were alternative doctors. This wasn't an emergency situation. And in a group of doctors sharing a practice, any one of them can see a patient. That's why they have group practices.

This isn't about Plan B or abortions. Nobody got hurt here. And I don't know where there was any brow beating or humiliation? The doctor didn't say anything denigrating that I saw.

And they went public with this story, did they not? So they're humiliated, and they decide to humiliate themselves even more by having it be discussed everywhere? Interesting.
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But what if someday there isn't? What happens then? The same thing we've seen with Plan B (which has nothing to do with abortion -- I wish people would quit that). And most people in this thread would be perfectly happy to allow that, seeing as how they think doctors have an inherent right to refuse anyone for any reason, regardless of whether an in-house replacement can be found or not.

You don't think it's humiliating for a doctor to tell you, basically, that you're so incredibly sinful and impure that they won't even see your child for fear of making themselves unclean just by being around them? Really? The implication isn't exactly subtle. Just because they cloaked it in passive-agressive niceties doesn't make the statement any less clear.

Regardless of whether a replacement can be found, you should be fired on the spot for subjecting a patient to that. You'd be fired from any other job for doing that to a client. Yet somehow, not doctors?

Going public isn't humiliating to them, obviously. It is probably empowering to feel they're trying to do something about this and prevent it from happening to someone else's child.

Although, unfortunately, in a culture that is more supportive of bigots than gay people, probably ultimately futile.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

prometeus said:
I am not asking you to join anything. On the contrary I'd prefer you to not be on any wagon with me.

Neither do I, and it is irrelevant.

I do not care who you dislike or like, nor am I asking to to like or dislike anyone. The issue here is bigotry of a particular doctor and you condone it. It is as simple as that.
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I have no idea why you keep posting to me. I don't know where this "like or dislike" you came from. This is a message board. I'm not posting to like or dislike people.

But feel free to post one more emotional post. I'm not going to read it. I'm posting about the subject of this thread, which is a baby being seen by a doctor's partner because the doctor didn't want to work with the baby's gay parents. Happy Friday.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

prometeus said:
So you would deny firemen the same freedom you advocate for this doctor because you do want to save your house. How noble of you.
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Firemen have watched homes burn down because they haven't paid their fire subscription/service fees. This event is not on the same level. This was a simple event of a person not feeling they could give the parents the same attention they give other families. They then gave them another doctor at the same time. The baby was never in jeopardy.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Who says what?

And how did we get from a prescheduled baby wellness exam to emergency fires, anyway?

Or are you saying that it's happening in hospitals where doctors are turning away patients because of religious beliefs? Because if that's happening, then someone should start filing some reports with authorities. It isn't happening here in my state that I heard of
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Who says the firemen or cops have to perform their services if they object on religious grounds? It's been established...yes? By law or policy? Well then it seems such things need to be established for the medical community.

I'm not sure you even read my post....I explained why very clearly.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Who says what?

And how did we get from a prescheduled baby wellness exam to emergency fires, anyway?

Or are you saying that it's happening in hospitals where doctors are turning away patients because of religious beliefs? Because if that's happening, then someone should start filing some reports with authorities. It isn't happening here in my state that I heard of
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It couldn't happen in your state. New Hampshire's laws protect people from discrimination based on sexual orientation. No such protections exist in Michigan where this couple resides.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

prometeus said:
I do not care who you dislike or like, nor am I asking to to like or dislike anyone. The issue here is bigotry of a particular doctor and you condone it. It is as simple as that.
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May I ask you or anyone else for that matter, just exactly under what circumstances a person could not be a bigot for rejecting homosexual lifestyles? Under what circumstances would it be permissible for someone to object to sexual proclivity? Is someone a bigot, for example to avoid people that say, enjoy anal sex, or BDSM, or wife swapping, etc.. etc..? Would they too be bigoted? I'm just asking because if the answer is "well gee, I suppose someone not accepting of people that are into BDSM are not bigoted", then might I suggest that you slow down on the rhetoric that is purely designed to shame the person you're disagreeing with, and begin to debate the subject matter in a mature, more open way, and win with your ideas rather than your rhetoric.


Tim-
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
But what if someday there isn't? What happens then? The same thing we've seen with Plan B (which has nothing to do with abortion -- I wish people would quit that). And most people in this thread would be perfectly happy to allow that, seeing as how they think doctors have an inherent right to refuse anyone for any reason, regardless of whether an in-house replacement can be found or not.

You don't think it's humiliating for a doctor to tell you, basically, that you're so incredibly sinful and impure that they won't even see your child for fear of making themselves unclean just by being around them? Really? The implication isn't exactly subtle. Just because they cloaked it in passive-agressive niceties doesn't make the statement any less clear.

Regardless of whether a replacement can be found, you should be fired on the spot for subjecting a patient to that. You'd be fired from any other job for doing that to a client. Yet somehow, not doctors?

Going public isn't humiliating to them, obviously. It is probably empowering to feel they're trying to do something about this and prevent it from happening to someone else's child.

Although, unfortunately, in a culture that is more supportive of bigots than gay people, probably ultimately futile.
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So you think the laws are going to change? I don't.

I didn't say anything about being related to Plan B. I mentioned abortion because you said this:

unwanted pregnancies, and therefore either potentially insurmountable expense, or harm to the woman, potentially ending in death

And you also mentioned Plan B.

Where did the doctor tell the parents that they made her feel unclean?
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

sangha said:
No, it's not. I think we found the source of your confusion



And I pointed out the hypocrisy of your opinion. Your disagreement is expected
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No confusion, just a difference of opinion.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Arcana XV said:
It couldn't happen in your state. New Hampshire's laws protect people from discrimination based on sexual orientation. No such protections exist in Michigan where this couple resides.
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So where in Michigan are these dying people being turned out in the emergency rooms because of sexual orientation?
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Lursa said:
Who says the firemen or cops have to perform their services if they object on religious grounds? It's been established...yes? By law or policy? Well then it seems such things need to be established for the medical community.

I'm not sure you even read my post....I explained why very clearly.
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So you're saying that firemen and policemen can ignore people in emergency situations for any reason at all on the basis of religion. That's a topic for another thread. This wasn't an emergency situation.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
So where in Michigan are these dying people being turned out in the emergency rooms because of sexual orientation?
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Let's be clear, this wasn't about emergency care, heck this wasn't even a doctor's appointment for something wrong, it was a standard wellness check. Also, the child was immediately seen for the check by another doctor in the same group. The parents didn't even need to reschedule. They easily found another HMO to treat them going forward.

This is mountain out of molehill time.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
So you're saying that firemen and policemen can ignore people in emergency situations for any reason at all on the basis of religion. That's a topic for another thread. This wasn't an emergency situation.
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You are obviously not reading my posts at all. I never said that. (bold, like in other post)

However the point I'm trying to make is....what if it was an emergency situation? "Hypothetical" does not mean "without value." This incident happened...is it your position that it would never happen in a life or death situation?
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

clownboy said:
Let's be clear, this wasn't about emergency care, heck this wasn't even a doctor's appointment for something wrong, it was a standard wellness check. Also, the child was immediately seen for the check by another doctor in the same group. The parents didn't even need to reschedule. They easily found another HMO to treat them going forward.

This is mountain out of molehill time.
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Which leads me to believe that it was manufactured, although I can't be sure, it just strikes me that way.

Tim-
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
So where in Michigan are these dying people being turned out in the emergency rooms because of sexual orientation?
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Hopefully nowhere, jeeesus! The question is, though, if it were to happen and the doctor on duty refused treatment, would he be prosecuted if he used religion as his excuse? You know seeing as there is no anti-discrimination protections for gays in MI...
 
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