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Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

Simpleχity;1064338762 said:
I didn't copy/paste anything. The forum software quoted you directly. With links, I proved your statement to be factually false.
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You accused me of making comparisons of Western military atrocities with Stalin and Mao, when in fact I mentioned neither of them. I simply included Russia and China in a long list of alleged enemies during the course of time that have been amongst our biggest threats at any given time. As a matter of fact, we're back to Russia again. And in truth, none of the "threats" have ever actually been threats.
 
Simpleχity;1064338794 said:
Indeed. Predisposed, but lacking any credible evidence to support his predisposition.

Consortium News? InformationClearingHouse? Both are well known conspiracy/anti-American internet rags.
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Yeah, and the Council on Foreign Relations, don't forget to throw them in.
 
Montecresto said:
You accused me of making comparisons of Western military atrocities with Stalin and Mao, when in fact I mentioned neither of them.
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Lol. I think you have either your thread or posters mixed up. I've not mentioned either Stalin or Mao once in this thread.

I demonstrated via links that your statement below in Post 206 is factually wrong.

Montecresto said:
The US is backing a regime in Kiev that Russia does not recognise as legitimate.
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Everyone in the pic below is mutually recognized as the President/Chancellor of their respective nation. Your assertion above is idiocy.

Normandy_format_talks_in_Minsk_February_2015_03-470x260.jpg
 
Simpleχity;1064338992 said:
Lol. I think you have either your thread or posters mixed up. I've not mentioned either Stalin or Mao once in this thread.

I demonstrated via links that your statement below in Post 206 is factually wrong.



Everyone in the pic below is mutually recognized as the President/Chancellor of their respective nation. Your assertion above is idiocy.

Normandy_format_talks_in_Minsk_February_2015_03-470x260.jpg
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And it appears that you have a huge gap in your timeline between the ouster of Yanukovych at the end of 2013 and the elections in May of 2014. The installation of a interim government that Moscow declared was not legitimate and prompted Russian responses to this Western aggression by securing his assets and people's in Crimea, and supporting the desires of others in Eastern Ukraine to self rule, something you love to tout about elsewhere.
 
Montecresto said:
And it appears that you have a huge gap in your timeline between the ouster of Yanukovych at the end of 2013 and the elections in May of 2014. The installation of a interim government that Moscow declared was not legitimate and prompted Russian responses to this Western aggression by securing his assets and people's in Crimea, and supporting the desires of others in Eastern Ukraine to self rule, something you love to tout about elsewhere.
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The old moving the goalposts trick. You should have quantified from the get go instead of making an erroneous blanket statement.

This, your now amended version...

Montecresto said:
The US was backing an interrum regime in Kiev that Russia did not recognise at that time as legitimate.
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Is not at all the same as what you wrote in Post 206 which I quoted and corrected...

Montecresto said:
The US is backing a regime in Kiev that Russia does not recognise as legitimate.
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No matter how you try to spin it ipso-facto ... your original posted statement is factually wrong
 
Simpleχity;1064338794 said:
Indeed. Predisposed, but lacking any credible evidence to support his predisposition.
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What I find most telling is his defense of Russia pursuing their national interest, but his decrial that the US might do the same.
 
Montecresto said:
Yeah, and the Council on Foreign Relations, don't forget to throw them in.
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:) Didn't back your claim that the US was behind him getting kicked out of power, but merely featured one of the best known advocates of the Realist school explaining that Russia would nakedly pursue her self-interest.
 
Simpleχity;1064339042 said:
The old moving the goalposts trick. You should have quantified from the get go instead of making an erroneous blanket statement.

This, your now amended version...



Is not at all the same as what you wrote in Post 206 which I quoted and corrected...



No matter how you try to spin it ipso-facto ... your original posted statement is factually wrong
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Your very sig line betrays the fact that Russia moved into and secured Crimea during the time period of the illegitimate government in Kiev. They have perpetual legitimacy in that action.
 
cpwill said:
:) Didn't back your claim that the US was behind him getting kicked out of power, but merely featured one of the best known advocates of the Realist school explaining that Russia would nakedly pursue her self-interest.
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You, cp, are wrong again, and still.

But this account is wrong: the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for the crisis. The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West. At the same time, the EU’s expansion eastward and the West’s backing of the pro-democracy movement in Ukraine -- beginning with the Orange Revolution in 2004 -- were critical elements, too. Since the mid-1990s, Russian leaders have adamantly opposed NATO enlargement, and in recent years, they have made it clear that they would not stand by while their strategically important neighbor turned into a Western bastion. For Putin, the illegal overthrow of Ukraine’s democratically elected and pro-Russian president -- which he rightly labeled a “coup” -- was the final straw. He responded by taking Crimea, a peninsula he feared would host a NATO naval base, and working to destabilize Ukraine until it abandoned its efforts to join the West.

John J. Mearsheimer | How the West Caused the Ukraine Crisis | Foreign Affairs
 
Simpleχity;1064339762 said:
Mearsheimer is neither government, nor military, nor historian. He is a theorist/author and offers nothing more substantial than his opinion on a given subject. There are thousands of pundits like him and their opinions span the entire political spectrum. Get over it.
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Excuse me dude, but you need to get over yourself. His credentials bury your ass and your opinion.
 
 
flogger said:
As did my multiple equally well qualified rebuttals of Meirsheimers opinion piece

The Ukraine crisis according to John J. Mearsheimer: Impeccable Logic, Wrong Facts

RealTime Economic Issues Watch | Is the West to Blame for Russia’s Aggression in Ukraine? Of Course Not!

Department of "Huh?!" John J. Mearsheimer Thinks the West Caused the Ukraine Crisis?: The Honest Broker for the Week of September 19, 2014 - Washington Center for Equitable Growth

Why John J. Mearsheimer is Wrong on Ukraine | Duck of Minerva

Get over it 'dude' you're the one that got 'buried' . If you want even more rebuttals I'll be happy to oblige :roll:
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Here, we'll borrow from Simple.

Alexander Motyl is neither government, nor military, nor historian. He is a theorist/author and offers nothing more substantial than his opinion on a given subject. There are thousands of pundits like him and their opinions span the entire political spectrum. Get over it.
 
Montecresto said:
Here, we'll borrow from Simple.

Alexander Motyl is neither government, nor military, nor historian. He is a theorist/author and offers nothing more substantial than his opinion on a given subject. There are thousands of pundits like him and their opinions span the entire political spectrum. Get over it.
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You got called my friend no less than four times so deal with it :cool:
 
flogger said:
You got called my friend no less than four times so deal with it :cool:
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How gracious of you to extend your friendship, thanks. But what do you mean by that, told four times by you and or others that John Mearsheimer's essay is nothing more than someone's opinion?!?! Because what else is anybody espousing here? Any source penned by anybody, including your prime minister or my president can be dismissed as their opinion. I can't figure out your hard on for Putin and why his no nonsense approach has your knickers twisted about in knots. Too funny.
 
Montecresto said:
You, cp, are wrong again, and still.

But this account is wrong: the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for the crisis. The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West. At the same time, the EU’s expansion eastward and the West’s backing of the pro-democracy movement in Ukraine -- beginning with the Orange Revolution in 2004 -- were critical elements, too. Since the mid-1990s, Russian leaders have adamantly opposed NATO enlargement, and in recent years, they have made it clear that they would not stand by while their strategically important neighbor turned into a Western bastion. For Putin, the illegal overthrow of Ukraine’s democratically elected and pro-Russian president -- which he rightly labeled a “coup” -- was the final straw. He responded by taking Crimea, a peninsula he feared would host a NATO naval base, and working to destabilize Ukraine until it abandoned its efforts to join the West.

John J. Mearsheimer | How the West Caused the Ukraine Crisis | Foreign Affairs
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Oh yes. Darn that democratization. Who do these eastern europeans think they are - free men? Surely they must be smacked down.

Hey, but you know what this article doesn't claim?

It doesn't support your conspiracy theory that the US was providing the rioters, or provided snipers that shot down people on both sides.. The closest it comes is noting that John McCain took part in pro-democracy marches, and that during the reconstruction process afterwards, a politician that was backed by (among others) an assistant secretary of state managed to become Prime Minister. Oh my gosh, the west backed democracy? How awful.
 
Simpleχity;1064339762 said:
Mearsheimer is neither government, nor military, nor historian. He is a theorist/author and offers nothing more substantial than his opinion on a given subject. There are thousands of pundits like him and their opinions span the entire political spectrum. Get over it.
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Mearsheimer is not just another pundit. He's a pretty major name in IR theory as a proponent of realism. However, this particular crises is sort of tailor-made for him to claim inevitability.

What he doesn't do is support Montecresto's conspiracy theories.
 
Montecresto said:
How gracious of you to extend your friendship, thanks. But what do you mean by that, told four times by you and or others that John Mearsheimer's essay is nothing more than someone's opinion?!?!
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Of course as are the multiple rebuttals of it and I'm more than happy to let others judge their relative merits based on current events
 
cpwill said:
Oh yes. Darn that democratization. Who do these eastern europeans think they are - free men? Surely they must be smacked down.

Hey, but you know what this article doesn't claim?

It doesn't support your conspiracy theory that the US was providing the rioters, or provided snipers that shot down people on both sides.. The closest it comes is noting that John McCain took part in pro-democracy marches, and that during the reconstruction process afterwards, a politician that was backed by (among others) an assistant secretary of state managed to become Prime Minister. Oh my gosh, the west backed democracy? How awful.
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Actually, you have no credentials, I've shown you the logical position of somebody who actually has them. And, here's the thing that I believe rubs a rash on your ass, and a couple others around here. It's been busted. Putin doesn't need your acknowledgment of what actually happened in Kiev the Fall of 2013. Interference, has backfired this time. And it's a most reasonable expectation that Russia doesn't back off on this and that Crimea remains home of Russia's warm water port.
 
cpwill said:
Mearsheimer is not just another pundit. He's a pretty major name in IR theory as a proponent of realism. However, this particular crises is sort of tailor-made for him to claim inevitability.

What he doesn't do is support Montecresto's conspiracy theories.
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Laughing good at that one. How pitiful. John Mearsheimer, supports exactly what I've claimed since the events in Maiden Square unfolded.

U.S. and European leaders blundered in attempting to turn Ukraine into a Western stronghold on Russia’s border.

To the bolded. To your dismay, that............is precisely what validates Putins response. It's too bad your so damn patronising that you've lost all objectivity on this.
 
flogger said:
Of course as are the multiple rebuttals of it and I'm more than happy to let others judge their relative merits based on current events
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Pffff, tired of amateur opinions.
 
cpwill said:
Mearsheimer is not just another pundit. He's a pretty major name in IR theory as a proponent of realism. However, this particular crises is sort of tailor-made for him to claim inevitability.

What he doesn't do is support Montecresto's conspiracy theories.
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Btw Mr. Will. That was a slick, albeit dishonest, attempt to dismiss everything John Mearsheimer had to say about Ukraine by accusing me of offering up his comments as evidence that the snipers in Maiden Square were provided by the West!! That I sourced from international and other news sources, not from Mr. Mearsheimer. :lol:
 
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