• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

face said:
Are your freaking serious? It was Russia that invaded the Ukraine and then backed mass murdering terrorists who turned Donetsk and Luhansk (which both have majority ethnic Ukrainian populations) into armed camps ruled by murder, kidnapping, rape, torture, and numerous other atrocities and pogroms against non-Russians.




“We are talking of a reign of fear, if not of terror” in the pockets of territory around Donetsk and Luhansk controlled by armed separatists and now experiencing a state of total lawlessness, Mr. Magazzeni said, citing cases of people shot at checkpoints for no reason and members of armed groups who were summarily shot because they no longer wanted to fight.

“The escalation in criminal activity resulting in human rights abuses is no longer limited to targeting journalists, elected representatives, local politicians, civil servants and civil society activists,” the report stated. “Abductions, detentions, acts of ill-treatment and torture, and killings by armed groups are now affecting the broader population of the two eastern regions.”

They further report that pogroms in the Crimea are responsible for ethnic cleansing in the Crimea:

The United Nations refugee agency has reported that more than 34,000 Ukrainians have been displaced. Most were from Crimea, where people who speak Ukrainian or do not want to change their nationality to Russian face discrimination and intimidation, Mr. Magazzeni said.

“They are mostly concerned about security: people report staying in cellars to keep away from the fighting, facing harassment at checkpoints and fearing the increasingly common abductions, threats and extortion,” the monitors reported.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/w...tails-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html?_r=0
Click to expand...

Ol' John Doe said Mr. Magazzeni was lying. Where do you get this trash. Marvel mysteries, I guess.
 
DaveFagan said:
Ol' John Doe said Mr. Magazzeni was lying. Where do you get this trash. Marvel mysteries, I guess.
Click to expand...

No from the United Nations Human Rights investigators report on the situation in the Ukraine. Mr. Magezzeni was the head investigator. Your non-rebuttal to documented evidence of Russian atrocities in the Ukraine is duly noted.
 
face said:
No from the United Nations Human Rights investigators report on the situation in the Ukraine. Mr. Magezzeni was the head investigator. Your non-rebuttal to documented evidence of Russian atrocities in the Ukraine is duly noted.
Click to expand...

Does the UN Human Rights Investigators Report have any merit when they document crimes committed by Israel against Palestinians? I didn't think so. Sit down.
 
Montecresto said:
Does the UN Human Rights Investigators Report have any merit when they document crimes committed by Israel against Palestinians?
Click to expand...

Yes and likewise the war crimes committed by Hamas and Hezbollah have been well documented by the UN as well.

I didn't think so. Sit down.
Click to expand...

Please refer me to the post where I justified for example the illegal settlements?
 
face said:
Are your freaking serious? It was Russia that invaded the Ukraine and then backed mass murdering terrorists who turned Donetsk and Luhansk (which both have majority ethnic Ukrainian populations) into armed camps ruled by murder, kidnapping, rape, torture, and numerous other atrocities and pogroms against non-Russians.
Click to expand...

As far as I undertsand, the people of Donbass disagree with you.

I've already posted the video here. Ukrainian journalists not so often dare to visit warzone in Donbass, but when they do some bad things happen.



F*ing Ukrainians, f*ing "united Ukraine", we'll kill you right here and so on - all these words the journalists had to listen about themselves.

In the beginning of the reportage journalists explains that as the locals find out they represent Ukrainian TV they were attacked immediately.

https://www.youtube.com/results?sea...0%D0%BF%D 0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5
 
Poroshenko calls for UN peacekeepers

BBC
18 February 2015

President Petro Poroshenko has called for UN peacekeepers to be deployed to eastern Ukraine to enforce a ceasefire.
Click to expand...
Since the Minsk II ceasefire accord commenced on 14 February 2015, rebel forces have denied OSCE monitors access to the Debaltseve cauldron. The OSCE is the international agency tasked with monitoring compliance of the Minsk II Accord. Poroshenko actually would prefer to not make such a request, because a UN peacekeeping force could in theory include Russian or Russia-allied troops.

At any rate, such a possibility is remote because Russia would probably veto any such UN action. The Russian ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin, intimated that Ukraine appears to suffer from a “lack of determination” to fulfill the specifics of the Minsk II Accord. However, Mr. Churkin failed to address the issue of how the Minsk II Accord can be fulfilled when rebel forces deny access to the OSCE international monitors.
 
Right on cue...

Russia rejects Ukraine UN peacekeeper plan

February 19, 2015

Russia and separatist rebels have rejected Ukraine's call for UN peacekeepers to monitor the tattered ceasefire, saying it would violate the Minsk accord. They argued the appeal, made late on Wednesday by Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, sought to "destroy" the UN-backed truce agreed under European mediation last week in the Belarus capital Minsk. But four days after coming into effect, that truce was already in tatters.

This week, the rebels ignored it to storm a strategic town they had surrounded, Debaltseve, forcing thousands of government troops there to flee. The co-leader of the rebel's self-styled Donetsk republic, Denis Pushilin, flatly told the Interfax news agency that the appeal "is a violation ... of the Minsk agreements".
Click to expand...

The heights of hypocrisy ... do as I say, not as I do...

Ukraine rebels disavow ceasefire at encircled town

Reuters
February 16, 2015

Ukraine's rebels disavowed a new truce on Sunday hours after it took effect, saying it did not apply to the town where most fighting has taken place in recent weeks. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, responsible for monitoring the ceasefire, said rebels had denied its observers access to Debaltseve.
Click to expand...
 
Drone footage published on 18 February 2015 of the Debaltseve cauldron showing the widespread destruction from heavy rebel artillery and Grad rocket barrages. There is no video commentary. The yellow letters on the screen are Ukrainian for ARMY SOS (a Ukrainian volunteer organization that raises funds for the ill-equipped Ukrainian forces). The town has been without electricity, gas, and running water for three weeks. 5,000 people remain, 21,000 fled or were evacuated to government-held towns to the north. The rebels violated the Minsk II Accord in order to capture Debaltseve yesterday.

[video=youtube;OhKy-_yeCxA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?OhKy-_yeCxA[/video]
 
Simpleχity;1064330420 said:
Drone footage published on 18 February 2015 of the Debaltseve cauldron showing the widespread destruction from heavy rebel artillery and Grad rocket barrages. There is no video commentary. The yellow letters on the screen are Ukrainian for ARMY SOS (a Ukrainian volunteer organization that raises funds for the ill-equipped Ukrainian forces). The town has been without electricity, gas, and running water for three weeks. 5,000 people remain, 21,000 fled or were evacuated to government-held towns to the north. The rebels violated the Minsk II Accord in order to capture Debaltseve yesterday.

[video=youtube;OhKy-_yeCxA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?OhKy-_yeCxA[/video]
Click to expand...

Ah, yes. You finally acknowledge that the Ukrainian troops were surrounded and in a "cauldron" and that was what the rebels told them at Minsk. Surrounded means that territory was under rebel control. The rebels offerred to allow the Ukrainian troops to retreat through a corridor without their arms. That would have been a good time for Poroshenko to say, "Good Idea, get the boys back to their mothers alive." Instead, he told them to fight. Poroshenko will personally bear the blame for the additional deaths resulting from his ignorance. This was stated on this board a week ago, so it is not a surprise to anyone. Only an unthinking, thoughtless, emotionless stooge could defend Poroshenko's actions.
 
Simpleχity;1064330420 said:
The town has been without electricity, gas, and running water for three weeks. 5,000 people remain, 21,000 fled or were evacuated to government-held towns to the north. The rebels violated the Minsk II Accord in order to capture Debaltseve yesterday.
Click to expand...

This highlights the tactic being employed in this region by the Russians. The numbers demographic doesn't currently doesn't work in their favour so no valid referendum can be staged until most of the majority ethnic Ukrainian populations are forced to flee either through terror or by making life so wretched for them that they leave of their own accord. We see the US use the very same tactic against the Palestinians via its Israeli proxies in the West bank. It takes time but it certainly works
 
flogger said:
This highlights the tactic being employed in this region by the Russians. The numbers demographic doesn't currently doesn't work in their favour so no valid referendum can be staged until most of the majority ethnic Ukrainian populations are forced to flee either through terror or by making life so wretched for them that they leave of their own accord. We see the US use the very same tactic against the Palestinians via its Israeli proxies in the West bank. It takes time but it certainly works
Click to expand...

Your comments about Donbass remain silly and ignorant. Unfortunatly you simply do not understand what you are talking about. It's impossible to force "ethnic Ukrainian population" to flee because noone can distinct Russians and Ukrainians, this is mixed in cultural and language sense population. If you know Russian (what I really doubt about) you would hear the words of old woman in the video above from Avdeyevka. She cries at Ukrainian journalists: "You say there are Russians (Russian troops) here! What Russians?! It's our children! Half of ours are in DPR (militia)!"

Dear Flogger, Russians and Ukrainians are not the same as Israelis and Palestinians. I realise it's hard to understand for people who don't know anything about Russia and Ukraine, but just try to learn it.

Here one more typical video from Donetsk. People are angry after one more shelling. First one man wishes Poroshenko and his son to die. Then a woman applies to Ukrainians and in Ukrainian language asks them to stop Ukrainian government. She says - they kill us, they kill out kids, stop them please and so on. Then another woman cries: "Let Zakharchenko kill all these bastards in the cauldron! Let them die!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uA5pRNPwEg

And I can easily find hundreds of such videos.
 
MrFirst said:
Your comments about Donbass remain silly and ignorant. Unfortunatly you simply do not understand what you are talking about. It's impossible to force "ethnic Ukrainian population" to flee because noone can distinct Russians and Ukrainians, this is mixed in cultural and language sense population. If you know Russian (what I really doubt about) you would hear the words of old woman in the video above from Avdeyevka. She cries at Ukrainian journalists: "You say there are Russians (Russian troops) here! What Russians?! It's our children! Half of ours are in DPR (militia)!"

Dear Flogger, Russians and Ukrainians are not the same as Israelis and Palestinians. I realise it's hard to understand for people who don't know anything about Russia and Ukraine, but just try to learn it.

Here one more typical video from Donetsk. People are angry after one more shelling. First one man wishes Poroshenko and his son to die. Then a woman applies to Ukrainians and in Ukrainian language asks them to stop Ukrainian government. She says - they kill us, they kill out kids, stop them please and so on. Then another woman cries: "Let Zakharchenko kill all these bastards in the cauldron! Let them die!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uA5pRNPwEg

And I can easily find hundreds of such videos.
Click to expand...

I've little to add to my previous post. You guys know what you are doing and nobody from either side would be screaming at anybody in videos were it not for Russian interference in Ukrainian internal affairs
 
flogger said:
This highlights the tactic being employed in this region by the Russians. The numbers demographic doesn't currently doesn't work in their favour so no valid referendum can be staged until most of the majority ethnic Ukrainian populations are forced to flee either through terror or by making life so wretched for them that they leave of their own accord. We see the US use the very same tactic against the Palestinians via its Israeli proxies in the West bank. It takes time but it certainly works
Click to expand...

Very good points, and a valid comparison. I would not be surprised if Russia or their proxies siezes the vacated homes and offers them to Russian cossack "settlers" as part of a veterans benefits package.

Various reble groups in Donetsk have toyed with the idea after most of the university staff sided with Kiev and left. (Some did so early on. Others did so only after armed rebels entered the campus demanded that they be awarded "law degrees"), but did not actually sieze the vacated homes- yet.
 
Cryptic said:
Very good points, and a valid comparison. I would not be surprised if Russia or their proxies siezes the vacated homes and offers them to Russian cossack "settlers" as part of a veterans benefits package.
Click to expand...

There are by some estimates at least a million displaced persons from this relatively small region at the moment, and they all must have lived and worked somewhere so this is quite possible. The Germans did the same with Polish homes and businesses when they invaded in 1939 by systematically routing the locals and handing their properties over to incoming 'ethnic' Germans. It was the start of the Nazi Lebensraum policy in the east
 
flogger said:
There are by some estimates at least a million displaced persons from this relatively small region at the moment, and they all must have lived and worked somewhere so this is quite possible. The Germans did the same with Polish homes and businesses when they invaded in 1939 by systematically routing the locals and handing their properties over to incoming 'ethnic' Germans. It was the start of the Nazi Lebensraum policy in the east
Click to expand...

I think that is another good analogy and a very real possibility. The Russians even have "plausible deniability" by letting loosely controlled irregular bands do the dirty work, and then denying involvement if there are "excesses".
 
flogger said:
I've little to add to my previous post. You guys know what you are doing and nobody from either side would be screaming at anybody in videos were it not for Russian interference in Ukrainian internal affairs
Click to expand...

Again you're going to political propaganda. I'm talking about simple things, there is no ethnic purges because noone can separate Russian and Ukrainian. The woman in the link I gave above first speaks Russian, then, when she applies to Ukraine, she starts to speak Ukrainian, then she speaks Russian again. Who is she? Ukrainian? Russian? I don't know it, I can't define it. How you can? How you can say who is she with all your ridiculous reasonings about Russians and Ukrainians?
 
Cryptic said:
I think that is another good analogy and a very real possibility. The Russians even have "plausible deniability" by letting loosely controlled irregular bands do the dirty work, and then denying involvement if there are "excesses".
Click to expand...

These "excesses" you speak of will be pretty much a given tactic in order to facilitate the 'required' demographic change in the region. Once Donetsk and Luhansk are consolidated in this manner I suspect the Kharkiv Belgorodskaya and Dnipropetrovsk oblasts will suffer similar 'assimilations' as the Russians incrementally use such tactics to move ever westwards

Watch this space :(
 
Cryptic said:
Very good points, and a valid comparison. I would not be surprised if Russia or their proxies siezes the vacated homes and offers them to Russian cossack "settlers" as part of a veterans benefits package.
Click to expand...

What is good at this point? Laughable. The most of Donbass refugees fled to Russia, not to Ukraine. Are you sure "Russian cossack settlers" dream about living in Donbass?

According to official data almost 300.000 Ukrainian citizens applied for asylum in Russia. I think the first worry for Russian authorities is to bring these people home, but not to sieze their vacated houses. Completely idiotic idea, I simply can't imagine how such an idea could be born in someones head. Besides, you must consider a lot of people have relatives in Russia, not all of refugees apply for official status, some people just live in their relatives' homes.

MOSCOW, February 16. /TASS/. More than 265,000 Ukrainian nationals, forced to flee their homes amid continuing violence in the country’s south-east, have been granted temporary shelter and official refugee status in Russia, Federal Migration Service (FMS) said on Monday.

"More than 290,000 people have applied for asylum, which includes temporary shelter and refugee status. About 265,000 have already got it," FMS citizenship department head Valentina Kazakova told journalists, noting that more than 900,000 refugees from Ukraine’s south-eastern regions were currently residing in Russia.

Some people preferred not to request any status documents, making use of a bilateral agreement allowing Ukrainians to stay in Russia without registering with the migration service for up to 90 days, Kazakova added.

TASS: Russia - Over 265,000 Ukrainians granted temporary shelter, refugee status in Russia
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
MOSCOW, February 19. /TASS/. Russian gas giant Gazprom launched gas supplies to south-east Ukraine starting from 4 pm February 19, 2015, at 12 million cubic meters of gas a day, including via gas measuring units of Prokhorovka and Platovo, CEO Alexey Miller said Thursday.

"In line with the currently acting sale and purchase agreement between Gazprom and Naftogaz Ukrainy, starting from 4 pm February 19, 2015 Gazprom supplies 12 million cubic meters of gas a day to Ukraine, including via gas measuring units of Prokhorovka and Platovo," Miller said.

Earlier on Thursday Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev ordered to provide assistance to the citizens of Debaltsevo and other settlements in the Ukrainian conflict zone that are facing a humanitarian crisis. PM ordered the Energy Ministry and Gazprom to prepare proposals on humanitarian gas supplies to south-east Ukraine.

"There is still another problem relating to gas supplies: by decision of the Ukrainian authorities, in any case, by the decision that has not yet been cancelled, and as a result of their certain actions, gas is not supplied to the territory of a whole number of populated areas [in south-east Ukraine — TASS]. Despite the calls for gas supplies, this is not taking place," Medvedev said.

"I would like the Energy Ministry to prepare proposals jointly with Gazprom on providing humanitarian aid through gas supplies for the needs of these regions, unless urgent measures are taken for their provision with gas using the customary scheme," Medvedev said.

Meanwhile, spokeswoman for the Russian premier Natalia Timakova said that humanitarian gas supplies to south-east Ukraine will be commercial.

"Gazprom will supply gas to the south-east [of Ukraine] as humanitarian aid on a commercial basis. The sources of financing are being determined," she said.

A source familiar with the situation said financing could possibly be provided through a loan or some other option.

TASS: World - Russian Gazprom launches gas supplies to Donbas at 12 million cubic meters a day
 
flogger said:
These "excesses" you speak of will be pretty much a given tactic in order to facilitate the 'required' demographic change in the region. Once Donetsk and Luhansk are consolidated in this manner I suspect the Kharkiv Belgorodskaya and Dnipropetrovsk oblasts will suffer similar 'assimilations' as the Russians incrementally use such tactics to move ever westwards

Watch this space :(
Click to expand...

Unless, Russia's goal is not the siezure of individual oblasts, but bringing Ukriane as a nation back into the Russian sphere as a protectorate. To do this, Russia would not need to ethnically cleanse the other oblasts. Rather, armed groups infiltrate from Donbass into Odessa, Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk where they find some degrees of local support. The Ukrainian government gradually loses control over those areas. As more and more areas are lost, a Russian led counter coup occurs in Kiev.

The new Russian installed government then "asks" to join Russia as a federal state. The far western oblasts are not garrisoned (too much trouble). Instead, they are left to "whither on the vine". Meanwhile, Putin sets his sights on Belarus as the next country to federalize.
 
flogger said:
These "excesses" you speak of will be pretty much a given tactic in order to facilitate the 'required' demographic change in the region. Once Donetsk and Luhansk are consolidated in this manner I suspect the Kharkiv Belgorodskaya and Dnipropetrovsk oblasts will suffer similar 'assimilations' as the Russians incrementally use such tactics to move ever westwards

Watch this space :(
Click to expand...
Their next immediate targets north of Debaltseve are Artemivsk and Kramatorsk. In the south, the strategic city of Mariupol where rebels are shelling small villages to the east of the city and bringing up reinforcements.

They may also resume their destabilizing operations in the cities of Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, and Odessa.
 
The newly appointed mayor of liberated Debaltsevo wears uniform with Greek flag on the sleeve.

The head of DPR Alexandr Zakharchenko appointed Alexandr Afendikov the mayor of Debaltsevo. Probably Afendikov is a Greek.

B-KE_tHIEAAM0BK.jpg
 
MrFirst said:
What is good at this point? Laughable. The most of Donbass refugees fled to Russia, not to Ukraine. Are you sure "Russian cossack settlers" dream about living in Donbass?

According to official data almost 300.000 Ukrainian citizens applied for asylum in Russia. I think the first worry for Russian authorities is to bring these people home, but not to sieze their vacated houses. Completely idiotic idea, I simply can't imagine how such an idea could be born in someones head. Besides, you must consider a lot of people have relatives in Russia, not all of refugees apply for official status, some people just live in their relatives' homes.
Click to expand...

Vacated homes of pro Russians are at little risk of siezure. Rather, it is the pro Ukrainians who will be "de-housed". As for Russian cossacks and "cossacks" wanting to settle in the Donbass, if given a free home, and other oncentives (small business loans, ability to purchase famland cheaply) etc, I think there will be more than a few such settlers.

MrFirst said:
The newly appointed mayor of liberated Debaltsevo wears uniform with Greek flag on the sleeve.

The head of DPR Alexandr Zakharchenko appointed Alexandr Afendikov the mayor of Debaltsevo. Probably Afendikov is a Greek.
Click to expand...
Or, he might be supporting bankrupt Greece's recent rejection of the austerity policies. Who knows, maybe the Greek left wing party will be allowed to print money in the Donbass and serve as economic advisors to the DPR.

Simpleχity;1064331405 said:
Their next immediate targets north of Debaltseve are Artemivsk and Kramatorsk. In the south, the strategic city of Mariupol where rebels are shelling small villages to the east of the city and bringing up reinforcements.

They may also resume their destabilizing operations in the cities of Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, and Odessa.
Click to expand...

Ukriane needs to win big and fast, or they are going to be made into a Russian protectorate by creeping destabilization. I hate to admit it, but Putin's is a master game player. He correctly predicted that the west would not intervene, and also correctly predicted that the Ukrainian military wont be able to stop even an invasion by proxy, let alone a full scale effort.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom