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Jordan pilot hostage Moaz al-Kasasbeh 'burned alive'

Fletch said:
So the world would somehow be a better place if ISIS dominated the ME??? And you think they would stay there and not bother us?? What are you smoking??
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How long can ISIS maintain its unity if there are no external enemies for it to target?
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
The point is to not give ISIS any legitimacy. Calling the beliefs of ISIS the beliefs of Islam provides the group legitimacy which it uses to attract recruits and followers.
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None of the potential followers of ISIS are waiting around for us to lend credibility to the movement. Only western liberals concern themselves with that sort of political correctness. These guys don't care about anything we say or do.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Here is the thing: this country has been at war for 14 years, fighting an enemy that cannot be pinned down or cornered. Many people are exhausted and want to go about with their daily lives.

It will take an terrorist attack akin to 9/11, possibly one that is worse, in order for America to commit to another war.
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I appreciate your sentiment, and part of me agrees, but I don't believe it's true. I know from polling how Canadians feel at the moment and I'd be shocked if Americans didn't feel similarly.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
How long can ISIS maintain its unity if there are no external enemies for it to target?
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Are you expecting the US to disappear? So long as we exist, ISIS will have an enemy. And if we are in retreat, they will have more recruits than they know what to do with.
 
Fletch said:
None of the potential followers of ISIS are waiting around for us to lend credibility to the movement. Only western liberals concern themselves with that sort of political correctness. These guys don't care about anything we say or do.
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We provide them legitimacy when we publicly associate their actions with the religion of Islam. What ISIS practices can be called many things, but Islamic is not one of them.
 
Fletch said:
Are you expecting the US to disappear? So long as we exist, ISIS will have an enemy. And if we are in retreat, they will have more recruits than they know what to do with.
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How unified is ISIS anyway?

I bet ISIS would devolve into political infighting between rival warlords.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Or isn't it possible that they are hoping that their brutality will cause a massive and more brutal response that they will then use to incite the Muslim street worldwide?
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Any Muslim that buys into that already hated us and was on the side of the terrorists, anyway.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Germany was a sovereign nation state, and therefore the civilian deaths that occurred were inflicted both in Germany and countries that were under millitary ocupation.

ISIS is not a nation unified by any common ethnicity or culture. ISIS is the embodiment of wielding political power through violence.
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So what? That doesn't mean we can't bomb the **** out of ISIS troops.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
The point is to not give ISIS any legitimacy. Calling the beliefs of ISIS the beliefs of Islam provides the group legitimacy which it uses to attract recruits and followers.
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A poll last summer found that 16% of French citizens support ISIS and that rises to 27% for those 18-24.

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795

It's hard to imagine that those supportive wouldn't be French Muslims, although I don't know that for a fact. But to suggest that a sizable number of those who believe in Islam don't also support ISIS is just ignoring reality and we've been ignoring it for far too long.
 
CanadaJohn said:
I appreciate your sentiment, and part of me agrees, but I don't believe it's true. I know from polling how Canadians feel at the moment and I'd be shocked if Americans didn't feel similarly.
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Most of us hold bitter memories about how the Iraq war was sold.

In my opinion I would rather have Prefered that we had not gone into Iraq and had instead focused on bringing the group responsible for 9/11 to justice.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
We provide them legitimacy when we publicly associate their actions with the religion of Islam. What ISIS practices can be called many things, but Islamic is not one of them.
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Tell all their Muslim supporters that they are anything, but Islamic.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Most of us hold bitter memories about how the Iraq war was sold.

In my opinion I would rather have Prefered that we had not gone into Iraq and had instead focused on bringing the group responsible for 9/11 to justice.
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You all are pissed off because 1) Bush was a Republican president and 2) he didn't lie about anything, afterall.
 
CanadaJohn said:
A poll last summer found that 16% of French citizens support ISIS and that rises to 27% for those 18-24.

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795

It's hard to imagine that those supportive wouldn't be French Muslims, although I don't know that for a fact. But to suggest that a sizable number of those who believe in Islam don't also support ISIS is just ignoring reality and we've been ignoring it for far too long.
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Isis's appeal is not as simple as religious identification.

There are other factors too. Ethnic minorities that are oppressed might be attracted to Isis's desire to overthrow the status quo. Isis's appeal may be based on the desire for adventure and oppertunity that is alluring to some countries youth. Also there are no shortage of people that are attracted by the possibility of loot, plunder, and power.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Isis's appeal is not as simple as religious identification.

There are other factors too. Ethnic minorities that are oppressed might be attracted to Isis's desire to overthrow the status quo. Isis's appeal may be based on the desire for adventure and oppertunity that is alluring to some countries youth. Also there are no shortage of people that are attracted by the possibility of loot, plunder, and power.
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Com'on, you're a reasonable guy and usually pretty sane in your arguments. But really, there is absolutely nothing that is attractive about ISIS and its brutality that isn't related to the creation of an Islamic caliphate that stretches throughout the Middle East, into Europe and beyond and these young Muslims see it as a religious calling. If you can't admit an understanding of that, there's not much else to discuss.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
The point is to not give ISIS any legitimacy. Calling the beliefs of ISIS the beliefs of Islam provides the group legitimacy which it uses to attract recruits and followers.
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You go right ahead and keep giving people that are butchering men women and children no legitimacy. Thats that crazy Charlie Sheen kind of 'winning' you are doing.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Most of us hold bitter memories about how the Iraq war was sold.

In my opinion I would rather have Prefered that we had not gone into Iraq and had instead focused on bringing the group responsible for 9/11 to justice.
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I would suggest you take it up with the congressmen who voted eagerly for that war, those still in office anyway.....

Bush, I heard, is gone.

The pricks who gave him creds and still get to sell their votes is who you have to complain to...Republican AND Democrat, I can't recall many who said "nay"
 
CanadaJohn said:
Com'on, you're a reasonable guy and usually pretty sane in your arguments. But really, there is absolutely nothing that is attractive about ISIS and its brutality that isn't related to the creation of an Islamic caliphate that stretches throughout the Middle East, into Europe and beyond and these young Muslims see it as a religious calling. If you can't admit an understanding of that, there's not much else to discuss.
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ISIS is twisting history to suit its purpouse. There has never been a truly united Islamic caliphate: ethnic tensions and political infighting led to disunity and political infighting.

And there is definitely a motivation for some people to join ISIS, and that motivation comes from believing that their current life in Europe and western society is of poor quality.

Just to be clear, the kind of people that are attracted to ISIS are the same that were attracted to living a life like Al Capone.
 
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Fearandloathing said:
I would suggest you take it up with the congressmen who voted eagerly for that war, those still in office anyway.....

Bush, I heard, is gone.

The pricks who gave him creds and still get to sell their votes is who you have to complain to...Republican AND Democrat, I can't recall many who said "nay"
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Bush may be gone, but the things his administration pursued as policy still exist.

The war in Iraq in particular is somthing we are still suffering the effects of.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
ISIS is twisting history to suit its purpouse. There has never been a truly united Islamic caliphate: ethnic tensions and political infighting led to disunity and political infighting.

And there is definitely a motivation for some people to join ISIS, and that motivation comes from believing that their current life in Europe and western society is poor.
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I'm sorry, but I'm not with you and your President on this one. I refuse to believe that I and the rest of western first world society is to blame for young Muslims wanting to blow themselves and others up for their religion or for wanting to behead innocent people, rape innocent women and children, and now burn a young man alive. That's not a function of an insufficient social welfare state. That's religious indoctrination run amok.

According to the latest US census, there were almost 49 million people living in poverty in the United States in 2013. How many of those are out kidnapping people and beheading them? How many burning people alive?
 
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Declan said:
There is no need for the world to know every detail to satisfy their prurient interests. X was killed by ISIL. What more do you need to know to be in the light? Need photos of dead corpses? Do you goggle the vids of the beheadings?
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there is no national security interest in withholding such media, thus the press/public should be free to express what they observe and believe
surprised you would be an easy convert to censorship
 
MMC said:
Looks like they will have to.....they did go Public.



Jordan to ISIS: If you kill the pilot, we’ll execute captive terrorists.....

Jordan has ramped up its threats to execute a terrorist whom the Islamic State wants set free if the terror group kills its captured pilot, according to a report. Jordanian officials said would-be bomber Sajida al-Rishawi and other Islamic State fighters would be “quickly judged and sentenced” if Muath al-Kaseasbeh is killed, the Daily Mail reported.

“I have reliable contact in the Jordanian government who says a message has been passed to ISIS,” said Elijah Magnier, chief international correspondent for Kuwait’s Al Rai newspaper. “It warns that if they kill the pilot, they will implement the death sentences for Sajida and other ISIS prisoners as soon as possible. There are other prisoners in Jordan that ISIS would like to free.”.....snip~

Jordan to ISIS: If you kill the pilot, we’ll execute captive terrorists | New York Post
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Throw them all into a garbage pit and set it ablaze.
 
justabubba said:
there is no national security interest in withholding such media, thus the press/public should be free to express what they observe and believe
surprised you would be an easy convert to censorship
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I am an easy convert to personal responsibility. I have not suggested the government ban reporting anything, only that media outlets think carefully about their decisions to delve into the nitty gritty details.
 
Risky Thicket said:
I'm sure they'd much prefer to decapitate more than one person at a time via drone or missile and thus avoid the barbarism of using a sword, but they don't have the means.
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I'm sure they would too. Do you honestly believe if we leave them alone though, that they will do the same? Do you actually think we can negotiate with them? They have been raised hating freedom. Trained to hate it. Their leaders? Whatever motivates them, is against freedom. It doesn't matter if they kill civilians. It won't matter if we leave. They want a dynasty. So pull Americans out and let the chips fall, or kill the leaders. And then leave. Don't negotiate
 
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