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Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

flogger said:
I've answered this already ..... twice ! :yawn:
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No, you've tried to say that guns make most Americans unsafe and your link proved that.

It did not.
 
flogger said:
But in fact Norway has seven times the gun death rate of the UK per 100,000 so whats your point ?



Most violent in Europe ? Have you ever visited it ? On the contrary our overall official crime stats are the lowest since 1981 so it looks like all those gun bans have been helping

Crime at lowest level for 30 years | UK news | The Guardian
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Ha ha ha ha ha :lamo

Bingo! *overall* Because MOST of the UK is safe except for the socio-economic areas where the criminals and gangs are focused.


Oh Lordie, did you finally get it?
 
flogger said:
The point is your lethal response is your first response rather than the last on far too many occassions as is borne out by your stats :(
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No, that's illegal unless lethal force is warranted. And the legal standards for that are quite high. You have to be in immediate danger of death or gross bodily harm. (Some variation from state to state)

And as already noted....the dead people are mostly criminals and dont obey the laws.
 
flogger said:
It could just as easily been so, as happens many times every day over there

Who cares as long as the guns are protected. Thats all that matters to most respondents here it seems
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True and very sad about the accidents but they are still much less than kid deaths from vehicles and car accidents. More on par with drowning deaths. Are we supposed to outlaw swimming and pools?

Accidents happen and yes, we are trying to overcome those things with education and more training. But there are idiots everywhere and their kids are never safe :(
 
EMNofSeattle said:
So what? Is someone killed it with a firearm morally superior to someone killed by another means?

You'd rather have 50 murders committed without a gun, then 10 committed with one?
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I tried that already. Regarding cars and guns. I said dead is dead, right? It doesnt matter to the dead people or their families.

Apparently he things that 'intentional' deaths matter more, that the dead would care. And their families? Why? They're gone. It only matters if you continue to manufacture false perceptions around the reasons, like is common here: cars good, guns bad.
 
Lursa said:
I tried that already. Regarding cars and guns. I said dead is dead, right? It doesnt matter to the dead people or their families.

Apparently he things that 'intentional' deaths matter more, that the dead would care. And their families? Why? They're gone. It only matters if you continue to manufacture false perceptions around the reasons, like is common here: cars good, guns bad.
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Maybe it would be no concern to you if your family were killed by accident or murdered (you obviously have guns that need protected more than they do after all) but I'll wager that is most certainly not the case for the vast bulk of individuals.

All modern societies have accidental deaths. You have yet to explain why all these additional and mostly intentional firearms deaths (almost absent from other developed nations) are acceptable ?
 
flogger said:
Maybe it would be no concern to you if your family were killed by accident or murdered (you obviously have guns that need protected more than they do after all) but I'll wager that is most certainly not the case for the vast bulk of individuals.

All modern societies have accidental deaths. You have yet to explain why all these additional and mostly intentional firearms deaths (almost absent from other developed nations) are acceptable
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Then it seems even stupider for people you seem to know that would accept the much higher body counts as 'oh well,' it was just an accident. She was so sweet....but accidents happen.

And we have additional deaths thru accidents all the time. I asked if we should further restrict driving...we can you know. So can the UK. People just dont want that...they WANT to drive anytime, anywhere and thus accept that risk of death very willingly.

I asked if we should make swimming and boating illegal to prevent drowning? Why not? Why would a modern nation allow it if it leads to so many accidental deaths?

Because we *like* those things and are willing to accept the risks. But boo hoo hoo, some people are irrationally afraid of guns and seem to think that being dead from a gunshot is so much worse than drowning. Wow.
 
Lursa said:
Then it seems even stupider for people you seem to know that would accept the much higher body counts as 'oh well,' it was just an accident. She was so sweet....but accidents happen.
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Thats right they do, just like they do in other countries

And we have additional deaths thru accidents all the time. I asked if we should further restrict driving...we can you know. So can the UK. People just dont want that...they WANT to drive anytime, anywhere and thus accept that risk of death very willingly.

I asked if we should make swimming and boating illegal to prevent drowning? Why not? Why would a modern nation allow it if it leads to so many accidental deaths?

Because we *like* those things and are willing to accept the risks. But boo hoo hoo, some people are irrationally afraid of guns and seem to think that being dead from a gunshot is so much worse than drowning. Wow.
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We have all these kinds of accidents too. You clearly are unwilling to acknowledge that intentional deaths by use of firearms are an additional and substantial extra threat almost unique to US society. Just looking at child deaths for example

The United States accounts for nearly 75 percent of all children murdered in the developed world. Children between the ages of 5 and 14 in the United States are 17 times more likely to be murdered by firearms than children in other industrialized nations.

In terms of accidental fatalities, American children younger than 15 are nine times more likely to die by a gun accident than those in the rest of the developed world.


http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/2/214.full.pdf
 
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flogger said:
We have all these kinds of accidents too. You clearly are unwilling to acknowledge that intentional deaths by use of firearms are an additional and substantial extra threat almost unique to US society. Just looking at child deaths for example
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And you are clearly unwilling to acknowlege that the vast majority of intentional deaths by firearms in the US are criminals and gang members. And some suicides. The criminals and gang members are not missed by "America." (one could almost consider it a public service if the guns help them exterminate each other). And the suicides are a mental illness problem, sad but the rest of us should not be punished for that.
 
Lursa said:
And you are clearly unwilling to acknowlege that the vast majority of intentional deaths by firearms in the US are criminals and gang members. And some suicides. The criminals and gang members are not missed by "America." (one could almost consider it a public service if the guns help them exterminate each other). And the suicides are a mental illness problem, sad but the rest of us should not be punished for that.
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Repeating the same defensive mantra over and over again doesn't make you right as the facts clearly illustrate

Gun deaths in children: Statistics show firearms endanger kids despite NRA safety programs.
 
flogger said:
Repeating the same defensive mantra over and over again doesn't make you right as the facts clearly illustrate

Gun deaths in children: Statistics show firearms endanger kids despite NRA safety programs.
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Make up your mind...are you discussing intentional or accidental? Do not mix them together. I have provided my cases for both *separately.* I just did regarding vehicular and drowning deaths. One much more common, one more on par with accidental gun deaths. I asked if we should make much tighter regulations for cars and driving. I asked if we should ban swimming, boating, and pools.

So, make up your mind, but stop mixing intentional and accidental together just to try and make your (continually failed) point.



This (below) is separate and you failed miserably when you posted yourself that your own posted UK stats were 'overall.' LOL

Lursa said:
And you are clearly unwilling to acknowlege that the vast majority of intentional deaths by firearms in the US are criminals and gang members. And some suicides. The criminals and gang members are not missed by "America." (one could almost consider it a public service if the guns help them exterminate each other). And the suicides are a mental illness problem, sad but the rest of us should not be punished for that.
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Lursa said:
Make up your mind...are you discussing intentional or accidental? Do not mix them together. I have provided my cases for both *separately.* I just did regarding vehicular and drowning deaths. One much more common, one more on par with accidental gun deaths. I asked if we should make much tighter regulations for cars and driving. I asked if we should ban swimming, boating, and pools.

So, make up your mind, but stop mixing intentional and accidental together just to try and make your (continually failed) point.

This (below) is separate and you failed miserably when you posted yourself that your own posted UK stats were 'overall.' LOL
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Keep repeating your scriptures all you like if it makes you feel better but guns clearly blight your society and you've been shown ample study evidence for that . Going into denial about it won't make it go away. If you choose not to accept it then I certainly cannot make you.
 
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flogger said:
The worst crime on the books is surely murder.
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Debatable, IMO. I consider sex crimes against children equally bad, possibly worse.
flogger said:
Your murder rates are by far the highest in the developed world
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I'm not sure that is accurate.
I encountered this interesting article on the subject, and it raises some interesting points...Comparing murder rates and gun ownership across countries - Crime Prevention Research Center
flogger said:
because of mass casual access to firearms which are used in three quarters of them.
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75% of murders being by firearm is a slight exaggeration - it is actually 70%, I believe.
Not sure what exactly you mean by "casual access to firearms".

flogger said:
Since we introduced comprehensive gun controls over recent decades our already low gun crime has significantly diminished and our criminal fraternity now find it far more difficult and expensive to acquire them.
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That article I linked above actually mentions your country, in part.

Apparently in England and Wales:
Finally, as an aside, one has to be very careful in making comparisons across countries because numbers are not always comparable. For example, homicides in England and Wales are not counted the same as in other countries. Their homicide numbers typically “exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defense or otherwise” (Report to Parliament).
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This apparently reduces the number of official "homicides" about 15%, and has a larger impact on gun-related homicide numbers.

It's an interesting article that I am still reading.

Edit: Actually that article makes another point several times - in their opinion, this data does not provide a good picture of things - many other factors are involved in murder rate and such, not simply # of murders compared to # of gun murders, or # of guns available.

They mention that Switzerland has quite high access to firearms, as every adult male between 18 and 42 has to have a government-issued firearm in their home.
Israel has similar situation - it has much higher gun access rates than it's listed gun ownership rates, because most of the firearms are government-owned, even if they're present in the home of whomever they are issued to.

So gun ownership or guns per 100 persons are not accurate determinations of "how many people have access to guns".

For example there are probably people in the US with 10s or hundreds of guns they personally own - but they're locked in safes or the like (especially if collectables/antiques, I presume) and far less accessible than, say, a handgun in a bedside table drawer, or whatever.
 
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The Mark said:
Debatable, IMO. I consider sex crimes against children equally bad, possibly worse.
I'm not sure that is accurate.
I encountered this interesting article on the subject, and it raises some interesting points...Comparing murder rates and gun ownership across countries - Crime Prevention Research Center
75% of murders being by firearm is a slight exaggeration - it is actually 70%, I believe.
Not sure what exactly you mean by "casual access to firearms".

That article I linked above actually mentions your country, in part.

Apparently in England and Wales:

This apparently reduces the number of official "homicides" about 15%, and has a larger impact on gun-related homicide numbers.

It's an interesting article that I am still reading.

Edit: Actually that article makes another point several times - in their opinion, this data does not provide a good picture of things - many other factors are involved in murder rate and such, not simply # of murders compared to # of gun murders, or # of guns available.

They mention that Switzerland has quite high access to firearms, as every adult male between 18 and 42 has to have a government-issued firearm in their home.
Israel has similar situation - it has much higher gun access rates than it's listed gun ownership rates, because most of the firearms are government-owned, even if they're present in the home of whomever they are issued to.

So gun ownership or guns per 100 persons are not accurate determinations of "how many people have access to guns".

For example there are probably people in the US with 10s or hundreds of guns they personally own - but they're locked in safes or the like (especially if collectables/antiques, I presume) and far less accessible than, say, a handgun in a bedside table drawer, or whatever.
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I own five guns, and I'm not even that committed to collecting them
 
flogger said:
Keep repeating your scriptures all you like if it makes you feel better but guns clearly blight your society and you've been shown ample study evidence for that . Going into denial about it won't make it go away. If you choose not to accept it then I certainly cannot make you.
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Ah...no more ability to refute my arguments so....attack. Of course I dont accept any of your incorrect suppositions.

No problem. See my signature below, in green.
 
Lursa said:
And you are clearly unwilling to acknowlege that the vast majority of intentional deaths by firearms in the US are criminals and gang members. And some suicides. The criminals and gang members are not missed by "America." (one could almost consider it a public service if the guns help them exterminate each other). And the suicides are a mental illness problem, sad but the rest of us should not be punished for that.
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about 80% of those murdered and about 80% of those who murder cannot legally own firearms due to felony records some in the remaining 20% are juveniles with the equivalent of felony offenses but those are sealed
 
flogger said:
Repeating the same defensive mantra over and over again doesn't make you right as the facts clearly illustrate

Gun deaths in children: Statistics show firearms endanger kids despite NRA safety programs.
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we really don't care what Britains think about our 2A rights. The collective bed wetting England engaged in after Dunblane has made that nation a laughingstock to those of us who figure governments that don't trust their citizens to have handguns is government that should be ridiculed constantly
 
The Mark said:
I'm not sure that is accurate.
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It is. Indeed it is even four times higher than the next worst which is Switzerland. Unsurprisingly Switzerland has also the second highest rate of guns in homes. Plenty of evidence for these claims already linked throughout this thread

75% of murders being by firearm is a slight exaggeration - it is actually 70%, I believe.
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Your own FBI claims 72% but either way its hardly flattering is it ?

Not sure what exactly you mean by "casual access to firearms".
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I mean unrestricted and unmonitored

This apparently reduces the number of official "homicides" about 15%, and has a larger impact on gun-related homicide numbers.
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Our gun homicide rate in the UK is roughly on a par with the number killed in lightning strikes each year. Its not exactly something we have to worry about

Edit: Actually that article makes another point several times - in their opinion, this data does not provide a good picture of things - many other factors are involved in murder rate and such, not simply # of murders compared to # of gun murders, or # of guns available.
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The great bulk of your murders are committed by firearms. Take them out of the equation and US overall murder rates would not be much different to that of most other developed countries

They mention that Switzerland has quite high access to firearms, as every adult male between 18 and 42 has to have a government-issued firearm in their home.
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And as a consequence of that in Switzerland you are no less than 17 times more likely to be killed by a firearm than in the UK

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel has similar situation - it has much higher gun access rates than it's listed gun ownership rates, because most of the firearms are government-owned, even if they're present in the home of whomever they are issued to.
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As a consequence in Israel you are nearly 8 times more likely to be killed by a firearm than in the UK

For example there are probably people in the US with 10s or hundreds of guns they personally own - but they're locked in safes or the like (especially if collectables/antiques, I presume) and far less accessible than, say, a handgun in a bedside table drawer, or whatever.
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As linked studies earlier showed. In gun owning US households 43% of keep a firearm unlocked and loaded within the home and 73% of children under 12 know where these firearms are kept so It appears the parents in the OP were not as uniquely irresponsible as they have been painted. The number of school massacres can be put into proper context once you absorb such facts
 
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To cut a long story short this is a trivial matter, no issues.
 
RDS said:
To cut a long story short this is a trivial matter, no issues.
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Sure as long as the lethal toys are safe why care about the casualties ... as long as it isn't you or yours of course :(
 
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flogger said:
Sure as long as the lethal toys are safe why care about the casualties ... as long as it isn't you or yours of course :(
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Gun laws won't work with you guys. So live with it.
 
RDS said:
Gun laws won't work with you guys. So live with it.
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On the contrary they do work extremely well .

For example we certainly don't get our toddlers shooting their parents here :cool:
 
flogger said:
Prove it ?
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Ok:


Sources used in the video:


Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive
Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence.
Din B. Kates* and Gary Mauser**

The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:
Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).
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EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates
In Washington, the best defense is self-defense
By THE WASHINGTON TIMES

More guns in law-abiding hands mean less crime. The District of Columbia proves the point.

<snip>
Few who lived in Washington during the 1970s can forget the upswing in crime that started right after the ban was originally passed. In the five years before the 1977 ban, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 murders per 100,000. In the five years after the gun ban went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. One fact is particularly hard to ignore: D.C.'s murder rate fluctuated after 1976 but only once fell below what it was in 1976 before the ban. That aberration happened years later, in 1985.

This correlation between the D.C. gun ban and diminished safety was not a coincidence. Look at the Windy City. Immediately after Chicago banned handguns in 1982, the murder rate, which had been falling almost continually for a decade, started to rise. Chicago's murder rate rose relative to other large cities as well. The phenomenon of higher murder rates after gun bans are passed is not just limited to the United States. Every single time a country has passed a gun ban, its murder rate soared.

<snip>
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