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Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

Bodhisattva said:
There are a lot out there... but then you would just claim that they are not "legitimate", right?
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Show them to me. My question wouldn't be to just reject them (though some obviously should be). I would more likely wonder which side has more doctors supporting their cause.
 
stonewall50 said:
Show them to me. My question wouldn't be to just reject them (though some obviously should be). I would more likely wonder which side has more doctors supporting their cause.
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Pro-vaccine has an overwhelming majority, I would think.
 
stonewall50 said:
Which means more reason to vaccinate kids. So people aren't spreading it. The measles was down to almost nil numbers when people were intelligent and vaccinating. The numbers for why you should vaccinate are there. There is no other logical reason to not vaccinate, barring allergies.
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And that should still be a decision that people can make for themselves, made because people are able to make their case about how important vaccines are, not because the people are being forced to do it.
 
roguenuke said:
And that should still be a decision that people can make for themselves, made because people are able to make their case about how important vaccines are, not because the people are being forced to do it.
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That would be fine if the vaccine was for something like cancer. If you wanted to risk cancer and didn't mind paying the extra costs of higher insurance premiums, great. Cancer isn't contagious so your choice doesn't affect me. But with highly communicable diseases, your decision to not vaccinate puts others at risk. Worse, IMO, in a world where the vaccination rate is high enough that the risks of these preventable diseases is still small, your decision is a selfish one and privatizes the benefits of widespread vaccination, but socializes the costs, both in money and in others taking the small risk of side effects. In other words, anti-vaxers are freeloaders.

So as a general rule, society has the right and obligation to mandate (at least some) vaccinations to protect public health, with very limited exceptions.
 
roguenuke said:
And that should still be a decision that people can make for themselves, made because people are able to make their case about how important vaccines are, not because the people are being forced to do it.
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Only people who want to put their kids into public schools are being forced to vaccinate their kids anyway. And that makes sense - it's a public health thing. No public school wants epidemics raging through the school.

Maybe we should force it in other areas, but until recently that public schools strategy worked pretty well.
 
paddymcdougall said:
Only people who want to put their kids into public schools are being forced to vaccinate their kids anyway. And that makes sense - it's a public health thing. No public school wants epidemics raging through the school.

Maybe we should force it in other areas, but until recently that public schools strategy worked pretty well.
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I agree.

Actually , the childhood vaccinations are required in Mississippi and West Virginia to attend public school and those states make no exceptions ( other than medical reasons) ...not even religious beliefs.

Here is some info on US schools regarding vaccinations.
While all states require an immunization record, this does not mean that all students must get vaccinated. Opting out is a state-by-state law; some states allow parents to opt out for a variety of reasons, but all states do require an immunization record at schools.


Some of the exemptions for opting out of vaccination is due to medical conditions that increase the risk of having an adverse health effect or reaction due to the vaccine. Other reasons consist of religious beliefs and personal philosophical opposition to mandatory vaccination.

As of 2014, 48 states allow religious exemptions except for Mississippi and West Virginia and some states even require proof of religious membership.

In addition, only 18 states allow personal philosophical opposition to vaccination as a form of exemption.[32]
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Read more:

Vaccination policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From this CDC report:

Specifically, CDC found that:

MMR median vaccination rates among kindergarteners varied from 99.7% in Mississippi to 81.7% in Colorado, with a total of seven states and Washington, D.C., reporting rates lower than 90%;

DTaP median vaccination rates varied from at least 95% in 25 states to less than 90% in five states and Washington, D.C.; and

Varicella vaccination rates varied from at least 95% in nine states to less than 90% in eight states and Washington, D.C.

In addition, the report found that most states permitted parents to exempt children from vaccinations for religious reasons, while more than 12 states allowed parents to exempt children for "philosophical" reasons.

Overall, CDC found that the median rate for nonmedical vaccination exemptions was 1.7%, varying from a high of 7% in Oregon and 6.1% in Vermont and Idaho, to a low of less than 0.1% in Mississippi.
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http://www.advisory.com/daily-brief...ne-rates-some-areas-risk-losing-herd-immunity

Looks like Mississippi is the state with the most vaccinated kindergartners.
 
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roguenuke said:
And that should still be a decision that people can make for themselves, made because people are able to make their case about how important vaccines are, not because the people are being forced to do it.
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Then we should be allowed to bar these people from public places.
 
paddymcdougall said:
Only people who want to put their kids into public schools are being forced to vaccinate their kids anyway. And that makes sense - it's a public health thing. No public school wants epidemics raging through the school.

Maybe we should force it in other areas, but until recently that public schools strategy worked pretty well.
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Epidemics always "rage" through schools. And it works just fine right now. People are acting like we have had vaccines for everything that is vaccinated for for decades. We haven't had most of these vaccines until recently. Even the second MMR came about after I started school.
 
stonewall50 said:
Then we should be allowed to bar these people from public places.
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No, you shouldn't. That is simply ridiculous. It is an appeal to emotion to deny people their rights based on the probability of contracting a disease that you yourself are almost certainly protected against.
 
roguenuke said:
Epidemics always "rage" through schools. And it works just fine right now. People are acting like we have had vaccines for everything that is vaccinated for for decades. We haven't had most of these vaccines until recently. Even the second MMR came about after I started school.
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My thoughts...

We have not only prevented small pox epidemics but we eradicated the disease.
I had to have a smallpox vaccination before I started school in the early 1950s but my children who are in their 30s and early 40s did not need the vaccination because the disease was eradicated.

Our goal should be to eradicate measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, whooping cough , polio diphtheria, so children and adults of future generations do not have worry about epidemics of those diseases anymore.
 
minnie616 said:
My thoughts...

We have not only prevented small pox epidemics but we eradicated the disease.
I had to have a smallpox vaccination before I started school in the early 1950s but my children who are in their 30s and early 40s did not need the vaccination because the disease was eradicated.

Our goal should be to eradicate measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, whooping cough , polio diphtheria, so children and adults of future generations do not have worry about epidemics of those diseases anymore.
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Is anyone arguing with such sound policy. (Its rhetorical)
 
roguenuke said:
Epidemics always "rage" through schools. And it works just fine right now. People are acting like we have had vaccines for everything that is vaccinated for for decades. We haven't had most of these vaccines until recently. Even the second MMR came about after I started school.
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But the point is - epidemics DON'T rage through schools anymore, when everyone is vaccinated.

And even if the kid doesn't die from being sick, they lose school time, their parents may lose time from work (if they both work), and there may be complications for the kid.

Why put up with all that if we don't have to?
 
stonewall50 said:
Then we should be allowed to bar these people from public places.
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You can't just bar people from all public places even if they are much more likely to get disease. Public schools are one thing, and it might even be fine for private schools or YMCA sports leagues, but barring someone from going to public places is a little excessive not to mention an infringement on basic rights.
 
plb said:
You can't just bar people from all public places even if they are much more likely to get disease. Public schools are one thing, and it might even be fine for private schools or YMCA sports leagues, but barring someone from going to public places is a little excessive not to mention an infringement on basic rights.
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I'd agree with that.

What about proof of up to date immunization before traveling to another country, since that's been the cause of a couple outbreaks lately?
 
JasperL said:
That would be fine if the vaccine was for something like cancer. If you wanted to risk cancer and didn't mind paying the extra costs of higher insurance premiums, great. Cancer isn't contagious so your choice doesn't affect me. But with highly communicable diseases, your decision to not vaccinate puts others at risk. Worse, IMO, in a world where the vaccination rate is high enough that the risks of these preventable diseases is still small, your decision is a selfish one and privatizes the benefits of widespread vaccination, but socializes the costs, both in money and in others taking the small risk of side effects. In other words, anti-vaxers are freeloaders.

So as a general rule, society has the right and obligation to mandate (at least some) vaccinations to protect public health, with very limited exceptions.
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Society does not have the right to violate the bodies of its citizens, as Roe v Wade demosntrated.
 
paddymcdougall said:
I'd agree with that.

What about proof of up to date immunization before traveling to another country, since that's been the cause of a couple outbreaks lately?
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So now we are suggesting banning the freedom to travel? How about up to date proof before leaving your house while we are at it?
 
paddymcdougall said:
But the point is - epidemics DON'T rage through schools anymore, when everyone is vaccinated.
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When did epidemics "rage through schools"?

Why put up with all that if we don't have to?
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Get vaccinated and don't worry about it then...
 
Bodhisattva said:
When did epidemics "rage through schools"?

...
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During the 50s epidemics of measles, mumps, and/or rubella would go through the schools.

And since a disease like measles could take 7 to 18 days from exposure to breaking out and about a week to recover there were many days during the season when several students in each class were home sick.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Society does not have the right to violate the bodies of its citizens, as Roe v Wade demosntrated.
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Apples and giraffes. And the people who matter (the Black Robes) disagree with you. The relevant precedent was set in 1905 - Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can't ever figure out how to post links to .pdf files, but an extensive discussion is titled, "Mandatory Vaccinations: Precedent and Current Laws" from the Congressional Research Office, May 21, 2014. Here's a quote from the challenger in Jacobson:

The petitioner argued that “a compulsory vaccination law is unreasonable, arbitrary and oppressive, and, therefore, hostile to the inherent right of every freeman to care for his own body and health in such way as to him seems best; and that the execution of such a law against one who objects to vaccination, no matter for what reason, is nothing short of an assault upon his person.”12
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Sounds like many of the arguments made on this thread, which the Supreme Court rejected in favor of the government having the ability to protect the common welfare. I can't imagine any court could find otherwise as it's a core purpose of government and the powers of a police state.
 
minnie616 said:
My thoughts...

We have not only prevented small pox epidemics but we eradicated the disease.
I had to have a smallpox vaccination before I started school in the early 1950s but my children who are in their 30s and early 40s did not need the vaccination because the disease was eradicated.

Our goal should be to eradicate measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, whooping cough , polio diphtheria, so children and adults of future generations do not have worry about epidemics of those diseases anymore.
Click to expand...

Then educate the people. That is the best way to do this. Convince the people that vaccines are good for them, rather than removing their choice. Most will get their children those shots, particularly if we have affordable healthcare where no one feels going to the doctor is something that will either a) cost a lot, even if in insurance costs or b) pressured into something that makes them uncomfortable. Also perhaps we should work harder on actually helping people feel better and be less contagious or likely to spread the disease if they do get it.
 
paddymcdougall said:
But the point is - epidemics DON'T rage through schools anymore, when everyone is vaccinated.

And even if the kid doesn't die from being sick, they lose school time, their parents may lose time from work (if they both work), and there may be complications for the kid.

Why put up with all that if we don't have to?
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They do though, they are just not of major well known illnesses.
 
Bodhisattva said:
So now we are suggesting banning the freedom to travel? How about up to date proof before leaving your house while we are at it?
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{{{Shrug}}} You are free to travel. But you can't go to another country unless you have a passport. Is that banning your freedom to travel?

Given that the latest epidemics come from people who traveled overseas and brought the disease back with them, seemed like another good place to stop the outbreaks from happening. I always thought people who went overseas got fully vaccinated anyway, but apparently they don't.

I don't care if you like the idea or not. Just was offering it up as another way to cut down on people making the rest of us sick.
 
roguenuke said:
Then educate the people. That is the best way to do this. Convince the people that vaccines are good for them, rather than removing their choice. Most will get their children those shots, particularly if we have affordable healthcare where no one feels going to the doctor is something that will either a) cost a lot, even if in insurance costs or b) pressured into something that makes them uncomfortable. Also perhaps we should work harder on actually helping people feel better and be less contagious or likely to spread the disease if they do get it.
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and by the way - along with kids in public schools having to get vaccinate, I'm ALL FOR education. Many of us adults need to get the MMR; the CDC recommends it for anyone born after 1957 who either never got the measles vaccine (and never had it) or who got vaccinated in the 1960s. Without the latest outbreak and discussions like this I never would have known that. How many others out there are like me, born in the '60s, who need to get the MMR?

I also didn't know about the need to get the DTAP again until the whooping cough outbreak here in California a couple years ago. Turns out the DTAP (TDAP? I always forget) only lasts about 10 years; not a problem when all kids were getting the vaccine but it is a problem now.

So education needs to happen as well.

I'm also fine with schools holding vaccination days for free, like they used to . Much more convenient for the parents.
 
paddymcdougall said:
and by the way - along with kids in public schools having to get vaccinate, I'm ALL FOR education. Many of us adults need to get the MMR; the CDC recommends it for anyone born after 1957 who either never got the measles vaccine (and never had it) or who got vaccinated in the 1960s. Without the latest outbreak and discussions like this I never would have known that. How many others out there are like me, born in the '60s, who need to get the MMR?

I also didn't know about the need to get the DTAP again until the whooping cough outbreak here in California a couple years ago. Turns out the DTAP (TDAP? I always forget) only lasts about 10 years; not a problem when all kids were getting the vaccine but it is a problem now.

So education needs to happen as well.

I'm also fine with schools holding vaccination days for free, like they used to . Much more convenient for the parents.
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Actually, only one shot was given up til about 1989 for most. I don't know if I got a second shot or not, since I was already enrolled by then and some vaccines are age limited. After a certain age, you can't get them.
 
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