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Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

Lursa said:
And we are talking about best practices for keeping kids safe.

Everyone is at risk in a car. So we shouldnt bother wearing seat belts? Just not put kids in safety seats because hey, they could die in a wreck anyway.

Your argument fails. I havent made any black and white statements regarding vaccines and their usage....and there are no foolproof methods to prevent disease. What we are discussing here are reasonable precautions for public health.

And if you choose to place others at additional risk, then the school/govt has the right to decide your kids can stay home and be homeschooled.
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I never argued to not get vaccinated so I have no idea why you keep acting like I have. The government, with all its power, can do a lot of things that are immoral and illogical. So what?

...and you didn't even bother to address the link.
 
bicycleman said:
What is it about measles vaccines? Vaccines for measles didn't exist when I was going to school. You got the disease, of which there were 2 versions, one lasted for 3 days, and the other, the bad one lasted for about 2 weeks. Then you were immune for life. Our parents and grandparents had all had measles, and nobody worried about it, nor did anybody ever die of it. What has happened? Was measles so eradicated that no one now has any immunity toward it?
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Infants died, kids died, the elderly died, people with compromised immune systems died. We did worry about it. Pregnant women had to be very very careful as well not to get it.

You have a very incomplete and inaccurate view of history.

And btw, you may not still be immune.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I never argued to not get vaccinated so I have no idea why you keep acting like I have. The government, with all its power, can do a lot of things that are immoral and illogical. So what?

...and you didn't even bother to address the link.
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Didnt read the link.

We werent discussing vaccines good/bad. We were discussing risks. And that it's factual that an unvaccinated child attending school has a greater chance of infecting others. And that unvaccinated kids in school (that are unable to be vaccinated and may be undergoing other protocols) are at more risk from such kids. Not to mention that any kid in the school can take it home to infant siblings.
 
Lursa said:
No they arent irrelevant when discussing medical privacy.

We use the public interest to override Constitutional rights all the time, including the first Amendment. Medical privacy is not inalienable nor inviolable.

That would be like saying...either we have the First Amendment, or we dont. And yet...there are laws that supersede that right...for the public good.
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The greater good, eh? So what do you think of that patriot act? The government violating your rights for the greater good is a real good idea right there.
 
Henrin said:
The greater good, eh? So what do you think of that patriot act? The government violating your rights for the greater good is a real good idea right there.
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Totally against the PA, goes way too far. It's about balancing things, something that you've demonstrated no knowledge of.
 
Lursa said:
Totally against the PA, goes way too far. It's about balancing things, something that you've demonstrated no knowledge of.
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Balance? Ok, so how does that work exactly? I want to know exactly how that works and how the government protects your rights when they are in fact not doing it.
 
Lursa said:
Didnt read the link.

We werent discussing vaccines good/bad. We were discussing risks. And that it's factual that an unvaccinated child attending school has a greater chance of infecting others. And that unvaccinated kids in school (that are unable to be vaccinated and may be undergoing other protocols) are at more risk from such kids. Not to mention that any kid in the school can take it home to infant siblings.
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No. I was never talking about risks of not being vaccinated. I was talking about mandatory vaccinations. Talk about risks with somebody else.
 
Bodhisattva said:
No. I was never talking about risks of not being vaccinated. I was talking about mandatory vaccinations. Talk about risks with somebody else.
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Well I did address some questions to you about unvaccinated children being able to attend school...should they be? And you said yes. That doesnt mean that they must by law have the vaccinations, just that the school has the right to try and minimize the risks to others.

That was my intent with my questions. You dont have to address them, we both live in free countries.
 
Bodhisattva said:
No. I was never talking about risks of not being vaccinated. I was talking about mandatory vaccinations. Talk about risks with somebody else.
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Life is a risky thing, so lets undermine people's rights to combat it! Got to love the safety idiocy.
 
Henrin said:
Balance? Ok, so how does that work exactly? I want to know exactly how that works and how the government protects your rights when they are in fact not doing it.
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LOL thanks for proving my point and it's not my job to educate you. THat ship has long sailed and some school failed you somewhere along the line.

It's just something I keep in mind if I read your posts. Which I often dont, lol.
 
Lursa said:
LOL thanks for proving my point and it's not my job to educate you. THat ship has long sailed and some school failed you somewhere along the line.

It's just something I keep in mind if I read your posts. Which I often dont, lol.
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So you don't have an answer on some sort of logical limitation on your argument. Good to know. The government doesn't have one either, btw.
 
JANFU said:
Many schools demand students have vaccinations. Thoughts on vaccination are? Consider the costs of not having your child vaccinated- not always money- but health risks to themselves and others.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/31/u...lumn-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

HUNTINGTON BEACH, Calif. — Their children have been sent home from school. Their families are barred from birthday parties and neighborhood play dates. Online, people call them negligent and criminal. And as officials in 14 states grapple to contain a spreading measles outbreak that began near here at Disneyland, the parents at the heart of America’s anti-vaccine movement are being blamed for incubating an otherwise preventable public-health crisis.

Measles anxiety rippled thousands of miles beyond its center on Friday as officials scrambled to try to contain a wider spread of the highly contagious disease — which America declared vanquished 15 years ago, before a statistically significant number of parents started refusing to vaccinate their children.
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Personally, I think anyone that doesn't get their kids vaccinated is a moron. I think we all know the autism link was thoroughly debunked. My issue, though, is personal sovereignty. I'm sure everyone here whose main argument is that you are putting others at risk would be mostly the same folks yelling about personal sovereignty in another.

While, again, I personally think it's stupid not to vaccinate, I don't agree with the govt being able to mandate it.
 
joko104 said:
How does an unvaccinated person put a vaccinated person at risk? Explain it. No one else has. They just keep chanting a nonsensical slogan.
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--vaccinations are not 100%. That is common knowledge....how did you miss that?

--not everyone can take vaccinations and may have to rely on other, less reliable protocols.

--after vaccination, it takes time to protect someone's immune system and in that approx 2 week period, people are still vulnerable to the disease.
 
Henrin said:
So you don't have an answer on some sort of logical limitation on your argument. Good to know. The government doesn't have one either, btw.
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Apparently your English language education was lacking as well.

But I still wont waste time answering.
 
Lursa said:
Apparently your English language education was lacking as well.

But I still wont waste time answering.
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So besides insults is there anything you have to say to defend your argument?
 
Lakryte said:
Well that's been explained multiple times, but to reiterate from other posters here is a link that helps explain it.
Why Worry About the Unvaccinated? | Shot of Prevention

Vaccines are not 100% effective. Most routine childhood vaccines are effective for 85% to 95% of recipients. So an unvaccinated person very much puts vaccinated people at risk, because for some vaccinated individuals the vaccine will be ineffective.
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Depending on the type of disease transmission, vaccinated people could carry the disease home to infant siblings...who are unvaccinated. Obviously I'm referring to the school/kid vaccinations here.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Those are facts. Additionally the two times I did get the flu vaccine... I got the flu that week. Only two times that I got the flu in that decade.
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Unfortunately, you were probably already exposed before you got the shots. It takes time to confer full immunity...approx. 2 weeks.

That does suck and that scenario is what adds to alot of ignorance and fear about vaccines.
 
Lursa said:
Well I did address some questions to you about unvaccinated children being able to attend school...should they be? And you said yes. That doesnt mean that they must by law have the vaccinations, just that the school has the right to try and minimize the risks to others.

That was my intent with my questions. You dont have to address them, we both live in free countries.
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I am against mandatory vaccinations. IF schools want to ban those children then they need to supply teachers to come to the houses of banned children so that they can teach them.
 
Tettsuo said:
Wrong. Natural immunity is far superior to the artificial resistance provided by vaccines. It's not even close.

I'm not suggesting anything. I stated a fact. Vaccines do not afford the same immunity as actually getting the disease.
.
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I think I asked already but do you have any sources for this?
 
Lursa said:
Unfortunately, you were probably already exposed before you got the shots. It takes time to confer full immunity...approx. 2 weeks.

That does suck and that scenario is what adds to alot of ignorance and fear about vaccines.
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IT was ten years ago and I can't remember if it was that week or two weeks... the timing was close enough that it was not coincidental.
 
Declan said:
Abstinence.
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LOLOLOL

Yes, we'd all be better off if some people completely abstained from contact with the entire rest of the population.

Let us know when you have an answer for the rest of the planet.
 
Lursa, you shouldn't make opened arguments and then start applying limitations on them that can't logically exist. For example, the patriot act does fall under your reasoning.
 
mac said:
Personally, I think anyone that doesn't get their kids vaccinated is a moron. I think we all know the autism link was thoroughly debunked. My issue, though, is personal sovereignty. I'm sure everyone here whose main argument is that you are putting others at risk would be mostly the same folks yelling about personal sovereignty in another.

While, again, I personally think it's stupid not to vaccinate, I don't agree with the govt being able to mandate it.
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Good post and good to say you mac...
 
Ikari said:
I think this whole thing is nothing but paranoia and ignorance. Places like Colorado had an 80% vaccination rate for years, and the bodies of kids are not building up in the street. People should get vaccines, but we're not at some point at which now everyone is susceptible to death, herd immunity is still pretty well working. There will be some non-zero cases of measles and such though, but it doesn't mean we're all going to die.

Now it's vaccines, before it was ebola, it seems like there's always some manufactured crisis we have to freak out about but they never really seem to come to anything. No one died from Ebola, and we're not going to go through a major measles pandemic.
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Not sure you understand how herd immunity works then...because when we see more and more unvaccinated people and the disease starts circulating......
 
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