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Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

CMPancake said:
Condoms are not 100% effective either, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use one to prevent STD's or conceive children. Nor should you use 2% when condoms don't work as promised as a reason why you should not wrap up before the dirty tango.
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There are all types of condoms - there aren't all types of measles vaccines though. I guess those with severe latex allergies just have to hope they can orgasm before their throat swells up and go into cardiac arrest.

CMPancake said:
Sure that makes sense, except vaccines work for the vast majority of humanity. If you have any known allergies you should always consult your doctor about that. Other than that, the risks are extremely limited.
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Really? There are deaths due to vaccines of all types. The CDC even lists who should not be vaccinated for all types of things:

Vaccines: VPD-VAC/Who Should NOT Get Vaccinated?

Risks could include everything up to and including death. The CDC even has a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. I'd consider the risk of death not extremely limited...
Statistics Reports



CMPancake said:
Feel strongly about what exactly? "My name is John Doe and I want my dumb disease ridden, non-vaccinated kid to mingle and share closed confined spaces with children who are physically incapable of getting vaccines so they can contract polio."
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Feel strongly about what medications are put in their body by government mandate - ie., the parent has no choice in the matter.


CMPancake said:
Legitimate? Sure. Likely? A whole different story.
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Subjective - what you consider likely or what statistically, is considered likely... likely by ethnicity, by age, by physical observation.... I guess you believe everyone is just perfectly healthy, but hundreds of thousands are not. And that includes children. Broaden your view - not everyone is healthy nor did they have the same experiences in life you did.
 
CMPancake said:
When you're done acting like a skid mark we could argue the virtues of vaccination. Until then you can continue your meek attempts at trolling.
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I have posted more than a few in this thread... Sheeple... you people make me laugh. :lol:

Hell, I already listed one directly to you... but you, apparently, cowardly ignored that one.
 
joko104 said:
That's the strawman everyone is using. That schools apparently are filled with kids that have NO immune system and are vulnerable to all diseases - therefore all other children should be required to be vaccinated.

Kids who have NO immune system should NOT be in public school. Not only are vaccinations not always effective, there are almost countless diseases from which there is no vaccination. Also, should no-immune-system kids are then extraordinarily capable of spreading diseases themselves - including those not addressed by vaccinations, as unlike other kids their bodies can't get rid of the disease - so they would just keep spreading it, where other kids would get over it.

In short, that strawman of lamenting of what about the kids with no functioning immune system is a bunch of crap. THOSE are the kids that should not be allowed in public schools because 1.) there is NO way to protect those kids against diseases since vaccinations do NOT prevent all diseases and 2.) those kids would be continuously spreading those diseases to other kids for which there is no vaccination defense.

For example, there is no vaccination for Infectious mononucleosis. It's a hell of a thing to get and highly contagious. Yet when a kid gets over it they can not spread it. However, a kid with NO immune defense who gets it would just keep spreading to every kid. That is just one of dozens of diseases a kid with no immune system would be spreading to every kid continuously.
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Jesus, it is the ones that are physically incapable of warding off a disease that should be banned from school... :roll:

...and the argument is so stupid in the first place. If the majority gets vaccinated then it should not matter than a minority doesn't get vaccinated.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I have posted more than a few in this thread... Sheeple... you people make me laugh. :lol:

Hell, I already listed one directly to you... but you, apparently, cowardly ignored that one.
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If you're referring to this.

Bodhisattva said:
For many, and perhaps even the majority, they do work. That does not mean that there are not valid objections to getting vaccinated though...
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I already responded to that. Although I can see why you would miss that when you're so busy trying to insult me. :roll:
 
Bodhisattva said:
Jesus, it is the ones that are physically incapable of warding off a disease that should be banned from school... :roll:

...and the argument is so stupid in the first place. If the majority gets vaccinated then it should not matter than a minority doesn't get vaccinated.
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That is so very obvious, isn't it?
 
CMPancake said:
If you're referring to this.

I already responded to that. Although I can see why you would miss that when you're so busy trying to insult me. :roll:
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Scroll up this thread and see who started with the insults.
 
CMPancake said:
If you're referring to this.




I already responded to that. Although I can see why you would miss that when you're so busy trying to insult me. :roll:
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No. Post #70 "Parents rarely know if their infant children have allergies..."

But that isn't the point. I have made other statements as well that clearly indicate that I am not anti-vaccine but you want to type-cast people, apparently.
 
To our non-American members: does your country seem to be entirely overrun by anti-science people too, or is that just us?
 
CMPancake said:
Fair enough, there are people who suffer from allergic reactions from some of the ingredients and in rarer cases suffer from diseases that make them incapable of taking vaccines. (The name for the disorder is escaping me at the moment.) .
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Agreed.

Outside of those rare exceptions you should get vaccinated
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That is the party line, no doubt about that. The issue is all of the things that we do not know but are convinced that we do know. The issue is all the people lathering up in the ignorance and lapping up what the CDC and Big Pharma tell them. The issue is that there are many children that are affected but this fact is not acknowledged. The issue is that something like 80% of adverse reactions are not reported by doctors making the data unreliable. There are many potential problems that we are ignorant of but the party line is as you stated... few exceptions, get vaccinated, no worries... ouch, an adverse reaction? We have no idea what caused it but there is no way in hell it was the vaccine.
 
Cardinal said:
To our non-American members: does your country seem to be entirely overrun by anti-science people too, or is that just us?
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I love that line... anti-science. If those that made such claims cared about science they would find out what the rapidly rising ADHD rates are from, why so many doctors do not report adverse reactions even though it is federally mandated, why the instant mockery of those that question vaccines even though adverse reactions occur just as the CDC lists or adverse reactions occur for reasons that the doctors do not know?

THAT is really anti-science.
 
Cardinal said:
It's a rising diagnosis of autism and those other things you mention. With zero evidence to tie them to vaccines it makes as much sense to blame them on the latest Transformers sequel, which is arguably a lot more credible than the vaccine theory.
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I am not arguing for autism.

I would say that the first reason for higher diagnosis is poor doctors and/or because of the money gained by such a diagnosis in treatment.

I would argue that since we do not know if the higher diagnosis is because there are more children that actually have ADHD or not though, it is reasonable to question why more children are getting ADHD. We have to err on the side that the doctors can diagnose ADHD correctly, first. If they can't do that then that makes their conclusions that vaccines are not correlated to ADHD even worse.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I love that line... anti-science. If those that made such claims cared about science they would find out what the rapidly rising ADHD rates are from, why so many doctors do not report adverse reactions even though it is federally mandated, why the instant mockery of those that question vaccines even though adverse reactions occur just as the CDC lists or adverse reactions occur for reasons that the doctors do not know?

THAT is really anti-science.
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In support of vaccinations: the medical community. Against vaccinations: non-doctors and a Playboy model.

The side you are on determines whether or not you are anti-science.
 
Ockham said:
There are all types of condoms - there aren't all types of measles vaccines though. I guess those with severe latex allergies just have to hope they can orgasm before their throat swells up and go into cardiac arrest.
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Or they can wear one of the many different types of condoms you were mentioning before. And for the record there are variety of different methods to get the vaccine that someone might be allergic too.

Ockham said:
Really? There are deaths due to vaccines of all types. The CDC even lists who should not be vaccinated for all types of things:

Vaccines: VPD-VAC/Who Should NOT Get Vaccinated?

Risks could include everything up to and including death. The CDC even has a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. I'd consider the risk of death not extremely limited...
Statistics Reports
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Using the statistics that you provided us from the CDC we can see that 15,684 have claimed to have been harmed or had someone die to vaccines. Out of those 15,684, 3,895 of them were compensated by the CDC for their claim. Let's say that entire 24% was right and the vaccines did more harm than good. In the same information you provided us it shows that over 2,236,678,735 vaccines were dolled out to the public. Now if we assume that the 2,236,678,735 vaccines were safe that would barely make 1% of the vaccines dangerous. Now I don't know the exact stat for this claim, but I think you have a lot better luck winning the lottery than for a vaccine to kill you.


Ockham said:
Feel strongly about what medications are put in their body by government mandate - ie., the parent has no choice in the matter.
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Most parents before vaccinations didn't have much choice in their children dying of polio either. you can fight and argue with the idea that vaccinations are 'big government' all you like. It's still wildly safer than allowing for diseases to run rampant through the Country once again.

Ockham said:
Subjective - what you consider likely or what statistically, is considered likely... likely by ethnicity, by age, by physical observation.... I guess you believe everyone is just perfectly healthy, but hundreds of thousands are not. And that includes children. Broaden your view - not everyone is healthy nor did they have the same experiences in life you did.
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Already addressed this above.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I am not arguing for autism.

I would say that the first reason for higher diagnosis is poor doctors and/or because of the money gained by such a diagnosis in treatment.

I would argue that since we do not know if the higher diagnosis is because there are more children that actually have ADHD or not though, it is reasonable to question why more children are getting ADHD. We have to err on the side that the doctors can diagnose ADHD correctly, first. If they can't do that then that makes their conclusions that vaccines are not correlated to ADHD even worse.
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Why are you focusing on vaccines as cause instead of, well, anything else at all?
 
Bodhisattva said:
I love that line... anti-science. If those that made such claims cared about science they would find out what the rapidly rising ADHD rates are from,
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ADHD isn't rapidly rising. There was a significant increase in ADHD diagnoses and prescription of medication to treat it in the 1990s, but there's evidence to suggest that these were misdiagnoses and that the medication wasn't necessary. Also I thought vaccines were supposed to magically create autism, not ADHD.

why so many doctors do not report adverse reactions even though it is federally mandated
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How do you know it's happening if no one is reporting it?

why the instant mockery of those that question vaccines even though adverse reactions occur just as the CDC lists or adverse reactions occur for reasons that the doctors do not know?
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Because most of the "questioning" is based on nonsense that has nothing to do with reality.

CMPancake said:
The anti-vaccination movement is so stupid it almost makes my blood boil. Even if vaccinations and autism were related in any way, shape, or form I rather live with my child being a potato then for him to catch Measles and die.
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Even if vaccines caused autism, the chance of a child dying of a horrific disease is far greater than any chance of getting autism. Not vaccinating is passing on the long odds and embracing the bigger chance of a terrible outcome. It's not keeping kids safe. It's recklessly exposing them to greater risk.
 
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Cardinal said:
In support of vaccinations: the medical community. Against vaccinations: non-doctors and a Playboy model.

The side you are on determines whether or not you are anti-science.
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I am on the most reasonable side. The one that does not say that the CDC is correct just because or that vaccines are causing autism. I am on the side of truth and honesty. I am one of the very few to balance the good of vaccines and the potential harm that it causes some (fact) and potentially more than the CDC and such will admit, or might even understand due to various reasons from longevity of results, under-reporting of adverse effects and a conspiracy to make money (Big Pharma).

What side are you on?
 
CMPancake said:
Or they can wear one of the many different types of condoms you were mentioning before. And for the record there are variety of different methods to get the vaccine that someone might be allergic too.
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Different methods but not different vaccines.... I'm assuming by method you mean different ways to administer the vaccine. Can you link all the different measles vaccine varieties for me?

CMPancake said:
Using the statistics that you provided us from the CDC we can see that 15,684 have claimed to have been harmed or had someone die to vaccines. Out of those 15,684, 3,895 of them were compensated by the CDC for their claim. Let's say that entire 24% was right and the vaccines did more harm than good. In the same information you provided us it shows that over 2,236,678,735 vaccines were dolled out to the public. Now if we assume that the 2,236,678,735 vaccines were safe that would barely make 1% of the vaccines dangerous. Now I don't know the exact stat for this claim, but I think you have a lot better luck winning the lottery than for a vaccine to kill you.
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Sure if I were willing to gamble the lives of my kids on 99% change they won't die. And that was just the US statistics - that's not even counting the number of vaccines that may have been tainted where people have been injured or died. My point isn't about the 1% - my point is that when it's your kid, you don't gamble. Knowing what is going into our bodies and having the option to say "no" is a natural right. You seem to not agree - or am I not understanding your position correctly?

CMPancake said:
Most parents before vaccinations didn't have much choice in their children dying of polio either. you can fight and argue with the idea that vaccinations are 'big government' all you like. It's still wildly safer than allowing for diseases to run rampant through the Country once again.
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You don't speak for most parents - and given the choice of course getting a polio vaccine would be preferred. I'm just saying it's not for everyone - there are legitimate reasons why some kids are not vaccinated. Vaccines aren't big government, but big government sets the rules that you must do ... a, b, c,. I'm saying it's still a choice and if the government doesn't accept that they can go screw.

CMPancake said:
Already addressed this above.
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Well I'm not going to go look for it. My statement stands unopposed. :tocktock2
 
Bodhisattva said:
I am on the most reasonable side. The one that does not say that the CDC is correct just because or that vaccines are causing autism. I am on the side of truth and honesty. I am one of the very few to balance the good of vaccines and the potential harm that it causes some (fact) and potentially more than the CDC and such will admit, or might even understand due to various reasons from longevity of results, under-reporting of adverse effects and a conspiracy to make money (Big Pharma).

What side are you on?
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If you are facing off against the entire medical community, and if you do not even have a medical education yourself, and if the most famous spokesman for your cause is a Playbody model, you are most certainly not on the "most reasonable side."
 
Paschendale said:
ADHD isn't rapidly rising. There was a significant increase in ADHD diagnoses and prescription of medication to treat it in the 1990s, but there's evidence to suggest that these were misdiagnoses and that the medication wasn't necessary. Also I thought vaccines were supposed to magically create autism, not ADHD.
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I never claimed that autism was caused by vaccines... although SIDS and ADHD might be. Since nobody knows either way it is a reasonable question.

How do you know it's happening if no one is reporting it?
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Because our doctor did not report it for one and because I have talked to doctors who openly admit they do not report adverse reactions... that being said:

VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning that reports about adverse events are not automatically collected, but require a report to be filed to VAERS. VAERS reports can be submitted voluntarily by anyone, including healthcare providers, patients, or family members. Reports vary in quality and completeness. They often lack details and sometimes can have information that contains errors.

"Underreporting" is one of the main limitations of passive surveillance systems, including VAERS. The term, underreporting refers to the fact that VAERS receives reports for only a small fraction of actual adverse events. The degree of underreporting varies widely. As an example, a great many of the millions of vaccinations administered each year by injection cause soreness, but relatively few of these episodes lead to a VAERS report. Physicians and patients understand that minor side effects of vaccinations often include this kind of discomfort, as well as low fevers. On the other hand, more serious and unexpected medical events are probably more likely to be reported than minor ones, especially when they occur soon after vaccination, even if they may be coincidental and related to other causes.

A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.

https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

When I asked our doctor why she did not report it she said that she didn't think of it and that she had never reported any adverse affect just as it states above, even though my daughter had adverse affects stated by the CDC up to and including moderate to severe reactions.

The under reporting of Vaccine side effects - Vaccine Side Effects

it is important to recognize that VAERS data alone are usually inadequate for drawing firm conclusions or providing a basis for regulatory actions. Many reports omit important data and/or contain obvious errors that may not be easily identifiable or correctable. Multiple vaccines are frequently administered simultaneously, according to currently recommended vaccine schedules, making it difficult or impossible to determine which (if any) of the vaccines administered was the possible cause of the event.

The extent of under-reporting of events occurring after vaccination is unknown, and the number of individuals in subgroups of interest (for example, infants) receiving the vaccine during specific time intervals is not known, so that incidence rates cannot be calculated. I]

Because most of the "questioning" is based on nonsense that has nothing to do with reality.
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That is a truly stupid statement...
 
Cardinal said:
If you are facing off against the entire medical community, and if you do not even have a medical education yourself, and if the most famous spokesman for your cause is a Playbody model, you are most certainly not on the "most reasonable side."
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What is my cause? If you can accurately state that then I will give you another shot.

If you can't then I will bid you a good day and state that I honestly thought your grey matter had more to it than this...
 
Ockham said:
Different methods but not different vaccines.... I'm assuming by method you mean different ways to administer the vaccine. Can you link all the different measles vaccine varieties for me?
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Certainly.

Vaccine Allergy: A Closer Look - Allergy Center - Everyday Health

Ockham said:
Sure if I were willing to gamble the lives of my kids on 99% change they won't die. And that was just the US statistics - that's not even counting the number of vaccines that may have been tainted where people have been injured or died. My point isn't about the 1% - my point is that when it's your kid, you don't gamble. Knowing what is going into our bodies and having the option to say "no" is a natural right. You seem to not agree - or am I not understanding your position correctly?
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My point is not vaccinating your children is a riskier gamble than vaccinating them. As shown with the stats you provided that is in fact the case. If you don't want to risk your children's life, vaccinate them. It's really just as simple as that.

Ockham said:
You don't speak for most parents - and given the choice of course getting a polio vaccine would be preferred. I'm just saying it's not for everyone - there are legitimate reasons why some kids are not vaccinated. Vaccines aren't big government, but big government sets the rules that you must do ... a, b, c,. I'm saying it's still a choice and if the government doesn't accept that they can go screw.
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It's a choice sure, but it is a choice that has now showing to be wildly fatal and harmful to society at large. Look at the recent outbreak in the OP. Look at all the outbreaks in the past few years of diseases that we have vaccines for. Honestly you could turn this argument around on anything related to child care.
 
joko104 said:
Scroll up this thread and see who started with the insults.
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Oh man, I guess I really should apologize to John Doe. After all I'm sure he's feelings are going to get hurt when John finds out he isn't a real person.
 
Bodhisattva said:
What is my cause? If you can accurately state that then I will give you another shot.

If you can't then I will bid you a good day and state that I honestly thought your grey matter had more to it than this...
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If your position is more nuanced than being an antivaxxer then let's hear it. I don't feel like playing twenty questions.
 
Deuce said:
It can be fatal, yes.
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Also potentially fatal: showering, taking the elevator, riding a tricycle, raking leaves.

In the unlikely event that you actually get measles, the chances of you dying from it are about the same as your chances of dying while hanging out at a dance party.
 
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