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Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

Bodhisattva said:
I do have a reason... my daughter almost died from the MMR vaccine. Child ADHD and SIDS rates are high and even increasing... children die and have serious reactions to vaccines including brain seizures.



The same never changing one... My oldest got her vaccinations until her 1 year-old MMR vaccine and had an adverse reaction, as I have stated. My youngest is not vaccinated at all, as I have stated.

At this point, according to the science, kids should get vaccinated. Test your kid for allergies first though. Vaccines should NEVER be mandatory though.

EDIT: Fine. Accepted. And No... it isn't.
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Unless she had an allergic reaction no she didn't. There is no connection between vaccines and ADHD or SIDS.
 
Cardinal said:
Perhaps because your anecdotal doctor is statistically irrelevant.
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But that's not possible in your view of the perfection of all in the medical field.
 
Sherman123 said:
Unless she had an allergic reaction no she didn't. There is no connection between vaccines and ADHD or SIDS.
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BUT THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE, isn't it? Vaccinates are 100% for 100% of people 100% of the time anyone parent who refuses should be imprisoned. Isn't that how the slogan goes?
 
Cardinal said:
Why, because the antivaccine movement needs a playboy model to get out your message while I only need the scientific community? Get over it -- idiots are behind the anti-vaccine movement, and you're lining up behind them.
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Obviously you put a lot of stock in her.:roll:
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Give me a break, we at one point had near universal vaccination in this country and nowhere near 10,000 children were killed by vaccines. Your numbers and assertions are not backed up by any level of science in the stew not dignify a response
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So much for the prior strawman of kids in school who can't get vaccinations.

Looking over this thread, the number of children you are willing to have die for your loyalty to big pharma is 1000.

Is that 1,000 children killed per year? Per vaccination?

Sacrifice your own children. Do you have any to sacrifice for the greater good?
 
joko104 said:
BUT THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE, isn't it? Vaccinates are 100% for 100% of people 100% of the time anyone parent who refuses should be imprisoned. Isn't that how the slogan goes?
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You need to reverse your tinfoil hat. It isn't effective against the BigPharma satellites unless you turn it inside out.
 
paddymcdougall said:
You might want to read up on the 1918 flu before you get too blase about the flu.
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We didn't have a lot of the options we have today almost 100 years ago. Things like internet, cell phones, 911, ambulances, Tylenol, Gatorade, temporal thermometers, Tamiflu, etc. You might want to consider some of these before you get your panties in a wad.
 
tech30528 said:
We didn't have a lot of the options we have today almost 100 years ago. Things like internet, cell phones, 911, ambulances, Tylenol, Gatorade, temporal thermometers, Tamiflu, etc. You might want to consider some of these before you get your panties in a wad.
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From the CDC estimating number of US deaths each year from flu:

The CDC estimates that from the 1976-1977 season to the 2006-2007 flu season, flu-associated deaths ranged from a low of about 3,000 to a high of about 49,000 people.
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Estimating Seasonal Influenza-Associated Deaths in the United States: CDC Study Confirms Variability of Flu | Seasonal Influenza (Flu) | CDC
 
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From the MMR vaccine insert:

ADVERSE REACTIONS
The following adverse reactions are listed in decreasing order of severity, without regard to causality, within each body system category and have been reported during clinical trials, with use of the marketed vaccine, or with use of monovalent or bivalent vaccine containing measles, mumps, or rubella:

Body as a Whole
Panniculitis; atypical measles; fever; syncope; headache; dizziness; malaise; irritability.

Cardiovascular System
Vasculitis.

Digestive System
Pancreatitis; diarrhea; vomiting; parotitis; nausea. 7

Endocrine System
Diabetes mellitus.

Hemic and Lymphatic System
Thrombocytopenia (see WARNINGS, Thrombocytopenia); purpura; regional lymphadenopathy; leukocytosis.

Immune System
Anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions have been reported as well as related phenomena such as angioneurotic edema (including peripheral or facial edema) and bronchial spasm in individuals with or without an allergic history.

Musculoskeletal System
Arthritis; arthralgia; myalgia.

Nervous System
Encephalitis; encephalopathy; measles inclusion body encephalitis (MIBE) (see
CONTRAINDICATIONS); subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE); Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS);
acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM); transverse myelitis; febrile convulsions; afebrile
convulsions or seizures[/B]; ataxia; polyneuritis; polyneuropathy; ocular palsies; paresthesia.
Experience from more than 80 million doses of all live measles vaccines given in the U.S. through
1975 indicates that significant central nervous system reactions such as encephalitis and
encephalopathy, occurring within 30 days after vaccination, have been temporally associated with
measles vaccine very rarely.{58} In no case has it been shown that reactions were actually caused by
vaccine. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has pointed out that "a certain number of cases
of encephalitis may be expected to occur in a large childhood population in a defined period of time even
when no vaccines are administered". However, the data suggest the possibility that some of these cases
may have been caused by measles vaccines. The risk of such serious neurological disorders following
live measles virus vaccine administration remains far less than that for encephalitis and encephalopathy
with wild-type measles (one per two thousand reported cases).

There have been reports of subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) in children who did not have
a history of infection with wild-type measles but did receive measles vaccine. Some of these cases may
have resulted from unrecognized measles in the first year of life or possibly from the measles vaccination.
Based on estimated nationwide measles vaccine distribution, the association of SSPE cases to measles
vaccination is about one case per million vaccine doses distributed. This is far less than the association
with infection with wild-type measles, 6-22 cases of SSPE per million cases of measles. The results of a
retrospective case-controlled study conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
suggest that the overall effect of measles vaccine has been to protect against SSPE by preventing
measles with its inherent higher risk of SSPE.{59}

Respiratory System
Pneumonia; pneumonitis (see CONTRAINDICATIONS); sore throat; cough; rhinitis.

Skin
Stevens-Johnson syndrome; erythema multiforme; urticaria; rash; measles-like rash; pruritis.
Local reactions including burning/stinging at injection site; wheal and flare; redness (erythema);
swelling; induration; tenderness; vesiculation at injection site.

Special Senses — Ear
Nerve deafness; otitis media.

Special Senses — Eye
Retinitis; optic neuritis; papillitis; retrobulbar neuritis; conjunctivitis.

Urogenital System
Epididymitis; orchitis.

Other
Death from various, and in some cases unknown, causes has been reported rarely following
vaccination with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines; however, a causal relationship has not been
established in healthy individuals (see CONTRAINDICATIONS). No deaths or permanent sequelae were
reported in a published post-marketing surveillance study in Finland involving 1.5 million children and
adults who were vaccinated with M-M-R II during 1982 to 1993.{60}
Under the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986, health-care providers and manufacturers
are required to record and report certain suspected adverse events occurring within specific time periods
after vaccination. However, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) has established
a Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) which will accept all reports of suspected
events.{49} A VAERS report form as well as information regarding reporting requirements can be
obtained by calling VAERS 1-800-822-7967.

This is far from a black and white issue.
 
Tettsuo said:
From the MMR vaccine insert:

ADVERSE REACTIONS
The following adverse reactions are listed in decreasing order of severity, without regard to causality, within each body system category and have been reported during clinical trials, with use of the marketed vaccine, or with use of monovalent or bivalent vaccine containing ....

This is far from a black and white issue.
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I agree.
All medications can have adverse reactions even a baby aspirin.

Let's put some numbers with the adverse reactions of the measles vaccination.

Side Effects and Adverse Reactions

More than 240 million doses of measles vaccine were distributed in the United States from 1963 through 1993. The vaccine has an excellent record of safety. From 5% to 15% of vaccinees may develop a temperature of ≥103 F (≥39.4 C) beginning 5–12 days after vaccination and usually lasting several days (19 ). Most persons with fever are otherwise asymptomatic.
Transient rashes have been reported for approxi- mately 5% of vaccinees.

Central nervous system (CNS) conditions, including en- cephalitis and encephalopathy, have been reported with a frequency of less than one per million doses administered.

The incidence of encephalitis or encephalopathy after measles vaccination of healthy children is lower than the observed incidence of en- cephalitis of unknown etiology.

This finding suggests that the reported severe neurologic disorders temporally associated with measles vaccination were not caused by the vaccine. These adverse events should be anticipated only in susceptible vac- cinees and do not appear to be age-related. After revaccination, most reactions should be expected to occur only among the small proportion of persons who failed to re- spond to the first dose.
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Read more:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/rr/rr4512.pdf
 
Bodhisattva said:
There is evidence that using computers can cause harm. Carpel Tunnel. Bad for the eyes... they didn't know about cell phones affecting sterility until recently. Who knows what they will find with vaccines...
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Right, there is evidence that using computers can cause harm. And there's evidence about the potential harm, and the likelihood of said harm, with regards to Vaccines as well.

I don't think many, if anyone, here are suggesting that vaccines are 100% safe all the time.

What they're suggesting is that at the very least there should be EVIDENCE of a possible danger if you're going to act like that danger exists.

If someone decided they didn't want to vaccinate their kid for MMR because they have a roughly a 0.000001% chance of having a severe reaction to it...fine. I'd think that's rather stupid, but at least they're going off something with some legitimate evidence backing it.

That's not what people are complaining about primarily. What they're complaining about are people not doing it because they think it'll cause their kid to have ADHD or Autism, something with no credible evidence suggesting it occurs what so ever.

There is as much credible evidence saying that drinking H20 causes autism or ADHD as there is saying that vaccines cause it. If your only argument against vaccines is that "they haven't proved 100% that it doesn't" cause ADHD or Autism then you better stop them from drinking water as well, becuase using the same standard they haven't 100% prove that water doesn't cause those issues either.
 
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Vaccines don't cause autism because the doctor who came up with the research completely fabricated it. What we have now is people continuing to repeat his false claims and absurd work. Welcome to 21st century America, where even the work of a discredited crank can live way past its expiration date.
 
Tettsuo said:
This is far from a black and white issue.
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Whether or not to get a vaccine, in general, is not a black and white issue.

Whether or not to get a vaccine because it may cause autism is a pretty black and white issue.

Additionally, your list of side effects are rather less compelling considering it's missing a key part of the equation...namely, the actual percentage chance of such side effects typically occuring.

If one has their child forgo vaccination because of the chance of some of it's side effects...regardless of the chance of said side effect...then my question would be whether or not they forgo similar medical treatments for their children that also have severe, and potentially similar, side effects. If they don't forgo those, but do vaccines, then it causes me to question the legitimacy of their claim that their worried about the legitimate potential harm that the vaccine may cause.
 
Sherman123 said:
You need to reverse your tinfoil hat. It isn't effective against the BigPharma satellites unless you turn it inside out.
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I wouldn't think you'd concede so easily. :lol:
 
joko104 said:
BUT THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE, isn't it? Vaccinates are 100% for 100% of people 100% of the time anyone parent who refuses should be imprisoned. Isn't that how the slogan goes?
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Who has claimed that, or are you just attacking a strawman?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Child ADHD and SIDS rates are high and even increasing
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Hmm...

Along side ADHD rates increasing, the rate of kids watching TV has increased.

The rate of kids eating fast food has increased.

The rate of kids playing video games increased.

The rate of kids using the internet increased.

The rate of kids having access to tablets and smartphones increased

Amongst other things...

Better keep your kids away from TV, video games, fast food, the internet, electronics, amongst other things since all those things have been increasing as well then it must be treated as if they cause ADHD until it can be proven 100% that they don't.

Correlation doesn't equal causation
 
Zyphlin said:
Whether or not to get a vaccine, in general, is not a black and white issue.

Whether or not to get a vaccine because it may cause autism is a pretty black and white issue.

Additionally, your list of side effects are rather less compelling considering it's missing a key part of the equation...namely, the actual percentage chance of such side effects typically occuring.

If one has their child forgo vaccination because of the chance of some of it's side effects...regardless of the chance of said side effect...then my question would be whether or not they forgo similar medical treatments for their children that also have severe, and potentially similar, side effects. If they don't forgo those, but do vaccines, then it causes me to question the legitimacy of their claim that their worried about the legitimate potential harm that the vaccine may cause.
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Actually, the real question is how often do people experience complications from the vaccine vs the complications experience from actually having measles, particular in developed countries where vaccines are ubiquitous.
 
CMPancake said:
Or they don't happen at all when you vaccinate. :roll:
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Then your kids have nothing to worry about...right?

My kids were all vaccinated. Our grandkids are and will be. We see the value in this cool modern medicine thing. But...
As these 'outbreaks seem to be demonstrating, either a-there are a TON of unvaccinated kids out there (be they the children of anti-vaccine types or undocumented immigrants or people that just flat out dont give a ****) or b-that vaccine isnt doing a ton to keep vaccinated people safe. And maybe its not an "either/or" but an 'and' situation.
 
Hatuey said:
Vaccines don't cause autism because the doctor who came up with the research completely fabricated it. What we have now is people continuing to repeat his false claims and absurd work. Welcome to 21st century America, where even the work of a discredited crank can live way past its expiration date.
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Are you referencing Andrew Wakefield?

Because Wakefield was not looking to discredit vaccines at all. His claim was because autistic children tend to have problems in the bowels, that there could be a link and even the source for autism.
 
It's impossible to really have a proper adult conversation about this issue because the media has already sensationalized it, and their sycophants are already dividing people into the camps of column A and column B.

My children weren't vaccinated and neither was I. I'm not part of a "movement". I don't get together with other "anti-vaccers" (such a stupid term) to plot against the system and convince people to not vaccinate.

If suddenly there is a true epidemic of a virulent plague and millions of people start dying, I'd probably consider getting vaccinated against that disease. Until then, the extreme views on vaccination, including taking away a person's right to choose, are totally hyperbolic. And when it comes to things like the flu vaccine, I don't trust corporate interests.

The root of epidemic disease is unhealthy populations with inadequate resources. Look at the average American diet and waistline and tell me that we have healthy immune systems. There's high fructose corn syrup in everything, artificial ingredients that disrupt our hormone systems, and toxins. We eat calorie rich food that is lacking in nutrients -- most Americans are actually starving, by definition. Most Americans get only 2 weeks of vacation per year, if that, so our stress levels are through the roof.

We wiped out disease in the 20th century because we learned about epidemiology, improved our standard of living, had supportive labor laws, and grew our health systems. Yes, vaccines played a role in that. Now the pendulum is swinging the other way because the church of money has corrupted our food systems, our health care, basically every way of life that would otherwise serve as prevention for disease.

Vaccines are a patch for a symptom that is part of a MUCH bigger problem. Nature will always adapt in order to cull the weak.
 
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Lakryte said:
Care to make any other bogus statistic up, or are we done?
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Flu vaccines worthless and dangerous | Vaccination Information Network

The CDC put out an advisory this year that 52% of the cases of influenza this year are from a strain that has 'drifted' from the vaccine strain so greatly that it will have no impact on recipients. The current years vaccines are ALWAYS made from the last years strain, meaning the efficacy is always questionable, depending on the level of mutation in the virus.

Im not anti-vaccine in general but I havent had a flu-shot in over 20 years. Ive had flu like symptoms a few times and my body has managed to fight them off.

Now...if they ever develop a vaccine against summer colds? I'm all over that!
 
Zyphlin said:
Hmm...

Along side ADHD rates increasing, the rate of kids watching TV has increased.

The rate of kids eating fast food has increased.

The rate of kids playing video games increased.

The rate of kids using the internet increased.

The rate of kids having access to tablets and smartphones increased

Amongst other things...

Better keep your kids away from TV, video games, fast food, the internet, electronics, amongst other things since all those things have been increasing as well then it must be treated as if they cause ADHD until it can be proven 100% that they don't.

Correlation doesn't equal causation
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I correlate the rate of increase of ADHD and Autism diagnosis to ****ty parenting syndrome.
 
VanceMack said:
Flu vaccines worthless and dangerous | Vaccination Information Network

The CDC put out an advisory this year that 52% of the cases of influenza this year are from a strain that has 'drifted' from the vaccine strain so greatly that it will have no impact on recipients. The current years vaccines are ALWAYS made from the last years strain, meaning the efficacy is always questionable, depending on the level of mutation in the virus.

Im not anti-vaccine in general but I havent had a flu-shot in over 20 years. Ive had flu like symptoms a few times and my body has managed to fight them off.

Now...if they ever develop a vaccine against summer colds? I'm all over that!
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There's suppose to be a study that states once you've had the flu, you'll be partially protected from future instances of the flu, shortening and/or lessening it's severity.

If I can find it, I'll post it.

Anecdotally, most people I know who've had the flu, only suffered from it once. But, most of my friends would never take a flu vaccine anyway.
 
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